Article: Travel Baseball - a flawed system?

I think we are talking about apples and oranges here.  The biggest difference pertaining to age.  12u All Stars is not the same thing as high level 17u.  You really have to see both to understand.  As far as being gritty and finding a way to win, that is simply something that some players have and some don't.  You don't become gritty just because it might be the last game.  You're either a gritty type player or you're not!  I understand certain games seem to be more important.  But a player is what he is, no matter what level he is at, when it comes to some things.

There is one thing they both have in common... Kids playing baseball... And that really is the most important thing.

You definitely have more experience in that area than me PG. Many people have more experience than me, and that is why I made sure to point out it was an observation I made from kids that I coached. You are correct that some kids are born gritty and some are not. I do believe that kids are more times than not a product of their environment. 

Sometimes I just read a post and reply without thinking who posted it.  So please don't think I was trying to belittle you in any way.  And though I might have a lot of experience, I don't necessarily have the same experience you do. So your opinion is every bit as important as mine.

And I definitely agree with your last sentence.

Thanks PG. The older I get and the more I learn the more I realize how little I know!

PW,

You would be surprised how many times I have told people exactly that.

my issue down here in Houston is that Travel ball can be year round,   and boy do the coaches put a lot of pressure on you to play.    My plan this year for my 13u,  is to try and skip fall altogether and really put in the work needed to make true improvements,  which i think is much easier when you are not playing actual games.     We will see how it works out.  

So, to me it is about developing the player.  Whether that is to go to play high school ball, college or whatever their goal is.  My biggest problem with all of it is I see very little focus on skill development in almost all youth baseball.  

The travel team my son played for did not cost much, $75 a month for 8 months of the year and  yearly registration charge.  They played, typically, one tournament per month.  The "select" 19U team costs about $800 and they play about 60 games a summer.  So, the cost is good.  For the younger kids the balance of games to practice time is good, well, for pitchers anyway.  However, there is not a "program" in place in terms of skill development.  Kids have unlimited access to the facility for infield work, tee work, bp ect.  I know plenty of parents who pay thousands for a summer season or a fall season....again, to play games.  There is no real program for skill development.  

There are good reasons for this of course.  The cost of having a real trainer or a truly qualified lifting coach, physical therapist, nutritionist on staff would exclude most people.  So, it is easier for the owner/coach/manager to say where or what level they played at (often means nothing) and talk about getting the persons kid seen.  Of course, what is being seen?  That question is usually not addressed.  

There are basically two ways to develop a travel team organization.  Take kids who want to play and train/coach the heck out of them to develop players.  Or recruit the best players one can.  A friends son was recently accepted to an 19U travel team where he lives.  The requirement for a PO on this team is by Junior year you have to be throwing at least 84 mph.  He just came in over that marker.  This team and their website is always boasting about having a 100% placement rate for players going to college.  The truth is, while he may be a fine coach, he eliminates anyone who does not enter this team having a good shot at finding a college team already.   

Either coach em up or recruit.  

Travel ball is good for the kids who want to play a bunch of games, have fun, make friends and play, hopefully, a better cross section of competition.  I don't have a problem with it at all.  However, it being some golden road to success, college placement ect is a herring.  It is often sold this way to parents.  

The coach them or recruit them issue is a fine line.  An organization can take a kid as a 10 or 11 year old who may be all in with regard to baseball.  He may have talent and love baseball.  A year or 2 later he may have decided to play AAU basketball in the summer...and have no interest in baseball.  Teams are ever-changing even in the best organizations.  Once kids get to HS age (moving from 13/U14U to 15U) things change even more.  Kids make decisions on their future goals.  If a kid decides he wants to play college football, his ability to commit an entire summer to baseball is probably not reality....so he leaves and the organization typically will find someone to replace him.  If you're picking up 15U or 16U kids at a good organization, chances are that kid is going to want to play college ball.....and may already be talking to schools.  The ability to move from where he was to a top level organization is often the step that puts that kid over the top and into college baseball.  I hear a lot of people complaining that some organizations don't develop, they just recruit because a top level 16U kid came to them from another organization.  One thing you never hear is someone talking about the kids who have been in that same organization since they were 11 that end up in college.  My son's organization was a perfect example.  His organization has at least a half-dozen kids who started with them at 11U/12U that ended up playing for the the same coach for 5 or 6 years and all ended up at D1's.  My son subbed with that team at 12U then finally went with them full time at 17U.   

Finding a coach at the youngest ages, that can also teach kids how to play is not always easy.  If you have one be thankful.  

I think the most important thing any youth coach should accomplish is to make sure your kids are enjoying the game.  10-11 year old kids don't have to be polished players.  Ask any player, young or old, what they enjoy the most, practice or games.  

If the team doesn't provide a lot of practice and instruction, there are many other ways to develop skills and knowledge in addition to being on a team.  Some kids and parents get that done.  Others don't want to do that.  But doing anything that could cause a young kid to dislike baseball is the wrong approach.

I believe in practice and teaching, but the best practice of all is the games.  There is a reason the developmental part of professional baseball is 90% games.  Once the fundamentals are learned, the games become your teacher. We always used the games to practice and learn.  Though we also used to practice a lot.  Should add, I have never coached a team of real young kids.

Depends on the program and ages. As you get older (HS) many teams coaches are really just managers of organized activities. They are a forum for exposure. They don't necessarily have time to coach or have practices. If your slumping, they'll move you down in the lineup, rather than take video or put in the extra time to see what you are doing wrong. As PG says you have to do that on your own or pay a private instructor for that. Find the right fit for what you are looking for in a program. Ask people who have played there. All about expectations.

PGStaff posted:

Finding a coach at the youngest ages, that can also teach kids how to play is not always easy.  If you have one be thankful.  

I think the most important thing any youth coach should accomplish is to make sure your kids are enjoying the game.  10-11 year old kids don't have to be polished players.  Ask any player, young or old, what they enjoy the most, practice or games.  

If the team doesn't provide a lot of practice and instruction, there are many other ways to develop skills and knowledge in addition to being on a team.  Some kids and parents get that done.  Others don't want to do that.  But doing anything that could cause a young kid to dislike baseball is the wrong approach.

I believe in practice and teaching, but the best practice of all is the games.  There is a reason the developmental part of professional baseball is 90% games.  Once the fundamentals are learned, the games become your teacher. We always used the games to practice and learn.  Though we also used to practice a lot.  Should add, I have never coached a team of real young kids.

Using pro baseball of an example of development of players is flawed however.  

Pro baseball does not need to be good at developing players.  They can add dozens of players a year to their organizations, players that already have a very high level of skill.  

When I speak of travel ball I am not speaking of little kids either.  My son never played travel ball when he was young, I didn't see the point.  

My point is when you go the website a travel ball organization and it is plastered (as they nearly all are) with the kids hey have moved on to college the message is loud and clear.  Sometimes it is more subtle, but, the "we will get your kid to college baseball".  If there is not actual skill development they are doing little more than taking peoples money.  If a kid is throwing 76 mph and he just goes and plays 10 games a month he is not improving his skills in a way that will help him in a real way.  

Yes, the game can teach game skills and teach the game itself and is needed.  That is separate from skill development.  Practice vs game time in other sports like football and basketball....a much better model than the typical "roll the balls out of the bucket" and play a game that most of amateur baseball uses.  

I wasn't referring to your son or any specific person.  One persons experience can be much different than someone else.  There are Travel teams that have several coaches, including a pitching coach.  

Professional baseball is more about development than most every level. In fact, player development is what often separates the organizations.  Having a very high skill set is just the beginning.

Anyway,  there are many different organization.  They are not all the same. What bothers me is when they are all labeled the same.

Re: travel programs claiming college players as theirs

I've noticed if a kid spends an hour at a facility or with a team they claim success for getting him to college. Do your homework.

PGStaff posted:

I wasn't referring to your son or any specific person.  One persons experience can be much different than someone else.  There are Travel teams that have several coaches, including a pitching coach.  

Professional baseball is more about development than most every level. In fact, player development is what often separates the organizations.  Having a very high skill set is just the beginning.

Anyway,  there are many different organization.  They are not all the same. What bothers me is when they are all labeled the same.

I know none of this conversation is about a specific person.  

If having a high skill set is the beginning point for a player at any level of advancement....JV to Varsity, HS to College and so on....an organization that is selling college placement or exposure (which most are) there should be a focus on developing ability.  That takes more than playing endless tournament games IMHO.  As far as everyone experience being different and some travel ball groups being good....Agreed.  

This is actually my point.  Parents (I of course, am just speaking from my experience and that of those around me) are sold a bill of goods in a lot of instances.  If you take a kid that is 5' 10", not strong, not fast with an average arm/bat ect....in other words, an average HS player....what is the average travel team doing to really assist or develop this kid?  Playing in endless games is not going to help him develop ability really.   Just go in with open eyes and realize what you are being sold, thats all I am saying.  Like I said, I am not against travel ball.  

Whether pro ball is good at player development as a whole is certainly debatable.  Like you said, some organizations are very good and some are not.  

RJM posted:

Re: travel programs claiming college players as theirs

I've noticed if a kid spends an hour at a facility or with a team they claim success for getting him to college. Do your homework.

Exactly.  

I know of a kid who pitched a total of 13 innings for a summer team over three years and is all over their website....D1 placement....conference pitcher of the year ect.   

Sort of funny.  

LEFTSIDE,

It sounds like maybe your experience was not the greatest.  I know what you mean, I know it is common place.   There are many organizations that only care about the money.  The 5-10 player that lacks skills should be looking for ways to get better.  No sense in paying to play on a team that can't help him.  I get it!

The point I seem to continually try and get across is that all organizations involved in Travel Baseball don't operate the same.   Because of this, some outstanding organizations get labeled incorrectly.  I must admit,  we see some of the bad side, but over all we see more of those that are very good.  The teams just trying to make a lot of money,  don't really want to spend that money on big events where the entry fee and travel expenses get in the way. 

You give excellent advice...  Go in with open eyes and don't be sold a bill of goods.  It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out.  But if all anyone does is listen and believe what they are hearing... You might find out too late.  Do a little research ahead of time.

Well said PG. 

Our experience was not terrible actually.  

My frustration is knowing parents who are told Lil Johnny is going to be a D1 (or whatever) guy when he clearly is not.  Now, a good deal of that is on the parents ignorance or laziness at not getting information.  

I agree with everything you are saying.  There are plenty of good organizations out there who work very hard to help kids.  More power to them.  

This is an experience from a different sport. But the situation is the same. My son was recruited by a prominent travel soccer program when he was ten. The person said all their kids get D1 scholarships. 

There was no way in hell my son was going to drop baseball and basketball to play year round soccer starting at age eleven. He wouldn't quit these sports. I wouldn't allow him to commit to one sport as a preteen. Regardless I killed the conversation with one question. I asked how many U12 players are still around to play for the U 18 team and get a D1 ride. The recruiter stammered through a non answer.

I'm around a lot of 14U baseball kids and parents.  A lot of good ones.  I have never heard/heard of a coach tell a kid they were "D1" talent in the 14U or younger age groups.  Parents talking, maybe, but not coaches.  I think this is way overblown on this board.

Go44dad posted:

I'm around a lot of 14U baseball kids and parents.  A lot of good ones.  I have never heard/heard of a coach tell a kid they were "D1" talent in the 14U or younger age groups.  Parents talking, maybe, but not coaches.  I think this is way overblown on this board.

Agreed! 

hshuler posted:

Go44dad posted:

I'm around a lot of 14U baseball kids and parents.  A lot of good ones.  I have never heard/heard of a coach tell a kid they were "D1" talent in the 14U or younger age groups.  Parents talking, maybe, but not coaches.  I think this is way overblown on this board.

Agreed! 

Could have meant D1 talent with Top Gun or similar organizations.

Go44dad posted:

I'm around a lot of 14U baseball kids and parents.  A lot of good ones.  I have never heard/heard of a coach tell a kid they were "D1" talent in the 14U or younger age groups.  Parents talking, maybe, but not coaches.  I think this is way overblown on this board.

Well, I for one said D1 or whatever....the level was relative, the message was the same.  

We get kids to colleges.  Then did nothing but play games.  

Go44dad posted:

I'm around a lot of 14U baseball kids and parents.  A lot of good ones.  I have never heard/heard of a coach tell a kid they were "D1" talent in the 14U or younger age groups.  Parents talking, maybe, but not coaches.  I think this is way overblown on this board.

There's a lot of selling in some travel programs that being in their program will get the kid there. They never directly say a specific kid will make it. They talk about all those who have. In the case of the soccer program I mentioned it's one if the most prominent in the country.

Humble opinion. I don't think parents should depend or expect anyone or any program to get their kids to the next level. Only the kid can determine whether they play at the next level.  I really never read much into their sells pitch. But it does pay to associate ourselves with better organizations for sure.  But isn't that true about life in general?

2ndMarDiv posted:

Humble opinion. I don't think parents should depend or expect anyone or any program to get their kids to the next level. Only the kid can determine whether they play at the next level.  I really never read much into their sells pitch. But it does pay to associate ourselves with better organizations for sure.  But isn't that true about life in general?

There are a lot of  unknowledgeable parents out there ready to be baited and hooked.

I realize things have changed drastically, not sure if it is for the good of the child.

I know someone (a child) who is going to attend one of the top private schools in our area, had to make a specific travel team to get the nod that he will make the HS team, eventually.  He will enter next year, he will  only be entering middle school.  Its not too hard to get into the school, if you have the $$$$ to pay the tuition. Notice that I used for dollar signs. The travel team also gets $$$$.

The sport is not baseball.  So I guess what goes on in baseball isn't so bad.

The way that I have always felt, is that anything before the HS level should be played for learning how to play the game, learn the basic fundamentals, how to get better at hitting and throwing the ball,etc.  Then in HS, the travel team should be one where the goal is to help players get to the next level.  This should all be done in moderation, so that the player actually gets to college without injury (I use college because not many will be going to the pro game after HS).  

As I said, recruiting in all sports has changed, but I am pretty sure that common sense has gone out the window.

The US has begun to embrace the Soviet/Eastern bloc approach to sports. It's grab them young, Get them focused in their sport. Train them hard. The strong survive. I cringe when I hear preteen travel parents rip on LL saying those kids are just playing for fun. It's what I played for in LL. I played college ball. Everyone in LL still wanted to win when my son played ten years ago.

Playing baseball is suppose to be enjoyable.  Winning is enjoyable.  Adults need to make things enjoyable, win or lose.

Little League

Rec League

Youth Leagues

Travel Ball

Legion Ball

High School

Any type of baseball

It's all great!  If the right people are running it.