Atlanta / Cardinals INF call

...and to make the most unpopular response to my initiating post, IMHO it was an INF, I just don't understand why the 3rd base umpire didn't call it, was it because he had 'help from the OF' or why?

The shortstop clearly was under the ball and called for it in the short OF. The fact that he ducked out of the way for an OF (or fan) calling him off doesn't change the call.

"Immediately" doesn't mean as soon as the ball is hit, or when it hits the apex, or any of the other common folklore applications. The rule says the umpire will "immediately" make the call "when it is apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly."

In this case, as soon as Kozma stopped back-pedaling, settled in the spot, and waved his arms to the side, the umpire made the signal. In other words, "immediately" when it was apparent that it was an infield fly.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
In this case, as soon as Kozma stopped back-pedaling, settled in the spot, and waved his arms to the side, the umpire made the signal. In other words, "immediately" when it was apparent that it was an infield fly.

IMHO, you stated it exactly correct. The call was right.

But who's call was it? It's a judgement call, so who should've made it in a six umpire system?

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
In this case, as soon as Kozma stopped back-pedaling, settled in the spot, and waved his arms to the side, the umpire made the signal. In other words, "immediately" when it was apparent that it was an infield fly.

IMHO, you stated it exactly correct. The call was right.

But who's call was it? It's a judgement call, so who should've made it in a six umpire system?

No idea how six man mechanics work. In the two-man youth games I work, the umpire who has catch/no-catch responsibility on the play (plate umpire has anything near a line, on or in front of the mound; base umpire has everything else) makes the infield fly call and the other one echoes it to help make sure all the runners hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
I'll start the thread for the experts to discuss.

Who's call is it in a six umpire system?
What are the "proper" responsibilities of an OF umpire on a INF call in a six man system?
Protest is allowed / not allowed?
Why six umpires in the first place?

1) Any umpire who deems it is an IFR fly ball. Generally, the one closest or has the best angle to the ball but not always.
2) In general, take fly balls to the OF and take the ball into the OF.
3) Denied as it should be. Completely judgment and IMO, it met all criteria necessary.
4) This is a move by the umpire association (WUA I believe). They wanted more umpires to get chances into the playoffs. Probably money reasons.

Normally the OF umpire doesn't initiate this call but he had the best look and pros do things somewhat differently in general and by crew specifically.
Was this a correct call, absolutely. Was it late, yes in the trajectory of the ball, but not according to movement by the players. Was the play butchered by the the players, completely. Was it butchered by the announcers, beyond recognition.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
In this case, as soon as Kozma stopped back-pedaling, settled in the spot, and waved his arms to the side, the umpire made the signal. In other words, "immediately" when it was apparent that it was an infield fly.

IMHO, you stated it exactly correct. The call was right.

But who's call was it? It's a judgement call, so who should've made it in a six umpire system?

I'm just wondering how important it is who made the call. They made the correct call. The umpire crew is a team if a member has a call that he is certain of, he makes the call. You don't step on partners call, but the infield fly rule can and should be made by any umpire who, in his judgement, has an IF.

Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
I'll start the thread for the experts to discuss.

Who's call is it in a six umpire system?
What are the "proper" responsibilities of an OF umpire on a INF call in a six man system?
Protest is allowed / not allowed?
Why six umpires in the first place?

1) Any umpire who deems it is an IFR fly ball. Generally, the one closest or has the best angle to the ball but not always.
2) In general, take fly balls to the OF and take the ball into the OF.
3) Denied as it should be. Completely judgment and IMO, it met all criteria necessary.
4) This is a move by the umpire association (WUA I believe). They wanted more umpires to get chances into the playoffs. Probably money reasons.

2 answers 1. In this system, this ball belongs to LFU.
4 is incorrect. There were six umpires in the playoffs well before there was any umpire's union.

I stand corrected about #4. I believe the WUA has some influence on the 6 man assignments and how they work. I could be wrong again. Even if I am, I must have confused the 2 concepts.

The 6 man crew came into existence in 1947 or even 1952 (I believe since I am not looking at the reference I found earlier and both of these dates were in there) and the first union came in about 1970 (after much research to find both of these facts).

quote:

Originally posted by mrumpiresir:


I'm just wondering how important it is who made the call. They made the correct call. The umpire crew is a team if a member has a call that he is certain of, he makes the call. You don't step on partners call, but the infield fly rule can and should be made by any umpire who, in his judgement, has an IF.

Thoughts?

It isn't too terribly important who makes the call as long as it is correct.

My point in asking is because it initially seemed couter intuitive that "infield" fly rule was called by an "outfield" (LF) umpire. When the third base umpire, who makes the call every night of the regular season, doesn't call it.

I've always wondered why they brought in extra umpires for the playoffs. If four umpires are sufficient all season, why do we suddenly need six for the playoffs?

Obviously some responsibility of the four man crew passes to the extra two umpires when using a six man crew, like OF catch/no catch, fan interference and fair/foul in the OF. I just never considered that INFR could also pass to the OF umpire.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by mrumpiresir:


I'm just wondering how important it is who made the call. They made the correct call. The umpire crew is a team if a member has a call that he is certain of, he makes the call. You don't step on partners call, but the infield fly rule can and should be made by any umpire who, in his judgement, has an IF.

Thoughts?

It isn't too terribly important who makes the call as long as it is correct.

My point in asking is because it initially seemed couter intuitive that "infield" fly rule was called by an "outfield" (LF) umpire. When the third base umpire, who makes the call every night of the regular season, doesn't call it.

I've always wondered why they brought in extra umpires for the playoffs. If four umpires are sufficient all season, why do we suddenly need six for the playoffs?

Obviously some responsibility of the four man crew passes to the extra two umpires when using a six man crew, like OF catch/no catch, fan interference and fair/foul in the OF. I just never considered that INFR could also pass to the OF umpire.

Umpiring is sometimes not intuitive.

On a borderline fair/foul call next to the pole, U2 can have the best angle.

Discuss.

This has been a topic of discussion amoung several of my brother umpires for the past several days, and here's my $.02 worth.

First, let me say I've never worked with a six man crew, so when somebody asks me "would you have called it?", I just can't say. From where I would have been as a part of a 2, 3 or even 4 man crew, I don't believe I could have considered the play to be within the confines of routine/ordinary effort. From where HE was, however, the call seems OK...but I pose this series of questions:

1. Would there have been ANY argument or controversy if it had NOT been called? I don't believe so.
2. If it hadn't been invoked, was there even the slightest chance that the defense could have turned it into a double play? No way...they might have gotten the force at 3rd, but that would have been it.

quote:

Originally posted by DECK:
1. Would there have been ANY argument or controversy if it had NOT been called? I don't believe so.
2. If it hadn't been invoked, was there even the slightest chance that the defense could have turned it into a double play? No way...they might have gotten the force at 3rd, but that would have been it.

Let me ask this: Do you wait to see the results of INT before you call it or do you call it when the criteria is met to call it?

Also, the only reason a DP is not possible is the runners taking a lead. If they thought about tagging up instead, a DP is very possible if the defense planned it to drop with F7 coming in on the run or F6 lets it hit 2 feet in front of him.

MLB players and even college players can throw a ball very well.

quote:

Originally posted by DECK:

1. Would there have been ANY argument or controversy if it had NOT been called? I don't believe so.

Fredi Gonzalez would have been out there in a heartbeat wanting to know why an IF wasn't called.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by DECK:

1. Would there have been ANY argument or controversy if it had NOT been called? I don't believe so.

Fredi Gonzalez would have been out there in a heartbeat wanting to know why an IF wasn't called.

Doubtful. Haha.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by DECK:

1. Would there have been ANY argument or controversy if it had NOT been called? I don't believe so.

Fredi Gonzalez would have been out there in a heartbeat wanting to know why an IF wasn't called.

I think you mean Mike Matheny unless a DP was turned, then it would have been Gonzalez.

quote:

My point in asking is because it initially seemed couter intuitive that "infield" fly rule was called by an "outfield" (LF) umpire. When the third base umpire, who makes the call every night of the regular season, doesn't call it.

I have learned that because it is a six man system the LFU is the one to vcall it because he is right there. In a four man, the U3 would go out and he would be right there. Whoever has the flyball coverage has the initial responsibility but any can call it. Therefore the LFU called it, U3 echoed it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
I think you mean Mike Matheny unless a DP was turned, then it would have been Gonzalez.

Yes. Thanks. Gonzalez was already out there (and given a very long leash).