Attention Coaches

Wow, 220 pitches in a week off of a mound seems like alot, regardless of which part of the season it is. Coach I would think should prioritize which game is more important to him, and throw the ace during that game. There just has to be another pitcher step up and be able to chew up innings during the season. I would have concerns, hell I had concerns during the college world series when stanford pitched that pitcher so many pitches, and so many innings. There has got to be someone else.

baseballs50 ...

As a parent, I will re-state my closing comment on the "pitch count" thread ...

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the coaches are paid to win games, not necessarily develop players. (Would be nice if they did both at the high school level.) And we all know of coaches who will try to win at any cost ... so somebody who has a personal and vested interest in the individual player needs to step forward and protect the player's future

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ShapsMa

Good question baseballs50 - about to face this one ourselves next week (Tuesday/Saturday).

________________
"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

FYI
This is hyperthetical question, but we all know it happens.

Haven't started games yet but .... Coach (who is also AD) told the boy ('04 RHP) not to bother trying to play 3rd this year.

Said they were going to be using him on the mound only, and that he didn't want him throwing across his body, at all!

The boy is fine with it even though he's a great 3rd, and I like to see him play every day! But the coach has shown that he's concerned, and I appreciate it!

Others will be pitching and playing a position, but not mine. The kid has great mechanics and possibly a future at it, and the coach is doing the right thing having him focus on just one thing!

Any coaches agree?

"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee

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On the flip side, as a parent of that ace starter (who will probably pitch beyond HS), your son's coach decides to use your son on Friday and he pitches a great game with another 90-110 pitches. However, the team loses.
How would you feel about this?

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This happened. Son pitched 94 on Saturday after pitching 60 on Monday, by the 5th inning he was tired, walked two, hit one, single, and then got out of the inning. But at 86 pitches, he went back out in the 6th. We figured the 5th inning was indication that he was done. We were up 2-1, going into the 6th, Son sent back out and the first two batters got on, they pulled my son, the relief pitcher couldn't hold the runners and we lost. Had he not went back out, we probably wouldn't have lost and he wouldn't have got the loss. He had pitched a great game, but got tired. It can be frustrating.

Woops,
Maybe I wasn't clear. I was wondering how a coach would answer as a parent in this scenerio. But interesting to see that this does happen and parents are concerned. Whether they speak up or not is their decision.

Had a friend whos son was in the same type situation. A one-on-one between the parent and the coach ended with the coach saying...

"I'm the baseball coach and you're the parent, you stick to parenting and I'll stick to coaching". To qualify the statement I have to say the coach is experienced and has a good repoire with all concerned.

Now, you have the chicken before the egg senario. Does the parenting decision about the kids well being supercede the coaches wishes, or, does a parent sit back and hope for the best? If the parental decision rules, does that mean that the coaches decisions are based upon the demands of the parent?

No coach should abuse a kid period. There is no game worth it. You throw the ace against the team you feel you need to. You give him his four days rest and move on. If a coach tried to do this then the player should speak up and say "Coach I can't go I have not had enough rest". If the coach insists then its time for the player to stand up and if need be the parents must step up. I just had a kid drafted in the third round. He came into High School at 14 so he was 17 when he graduated. He not once in his entire career threw on less than four days rest. If he had a short outing and threw minimal pitches that was the only exception. But for him that was hardly ever because he usually went deep in every start. Are there coachs out there that dont understand fatigue and potential problems with over pitching, yes. Are there coachs out there that might not be as concerned as they should be about kids, yes. In my experience these are the exceptions not the rule.

Why does it have to be an either/ or thing?

Acouple of years ago I spoke to the coach and asked him for his help.

Got an apppointment and at the meeting I said "Coach, I need your help. Here's the situation....what do you think?"

The meeting ended with the coach thinking good things not bad.

If I had gone to the meeting with a chip on my shoulder, or demands, I think it would have gone differantly.

Why not enlist his help? You both have the same goals... to win and keep the guys healthy, why start of on an adversarial basis?

"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee

This response is as a parent.

At 14 my son was the ace of his summer team and to say the least he was over used. One weekend he was put on the mound 3 days in a row. Two days were starts, the third was in relief. First game he threw 57 pitches in 4 innings. Second day threw 92 pitches in 7 innings. We were losing on Sunday so they sent him in to get us out of a jam. Dead arm syndrome appeared. We lost anyway. I was unhappy to see him warming up and more unhappy to see him enter the game. After the game, yes I said something to the coach. His response was "Okay. Okay." The next week we had a new player/ace join the team and my son rarely pitched again that summer. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but I just couldn't help but think that was too much for any pitcher even at 14.

The good news is...he's healthy and pitching high school ball. He has a wonderful high school coach who strongly believes in watching the pitch counts.

Just curious to know from the coaches out there if any of them would have pitched a kid like that and virtually replaced him if the parent objected?

Coach May,
I feel you are the exception. Your posts indicate you care more about the players than the score, and I take my hat off to you for that. However I believe that if you look nation wide, and not only in the baseball rich NC area you will find that the ace of most HS staffs is getting an unpropotionate number of starts and innings. That is to say the regular starts and closing appearances between starts within the guidelines of the State rules.

As far as a kid standing up for himself. At 17 years old and if you're the ace, you feel ok, you will want the rock. That is why you are, where you are.

I wish all coaches had the same mentality as you. I'm sure the brotherhood of coaches is tight, and many of the close associations you have are with those who are on the same page as you. It's my bet that those who do not agree with your philsophies stay clear of your path. Keep up the good work.

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Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but I just couldn't help but think that was too much for any pitcher even at 14.

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You did the right thing. Don't look back. I've stirred up a hornets nest after questioning a 115 pitch limit for game 1 and asking for 80 pitches instead.

I was told that if I want to coach I should find my own team. Jr. may be taking a break until May.

Base,
good question. The numbers here is the Northeast can never match those of the south. Our pitchers (Varsity) are on a 70 pitch count for the first month of our full 7 week schedule. We do however, at times have to use pitchers on three days rest since being a small school we may only have a staff of 3 or 4. This leaves approxiamtely 140 pitches for the week. During those last 3 weeks of the season we will increase the pitch count to 85 for 10 and 11th grade and 90-95 max for a senior. The last D1 pitcher we had, is a sophomore in college now, was removed from one of his last varsity starts while throwing a no-hiiter. Some parents thought we were crazy but counts are counts and the funny part was the kids father never questioned why.

During the summer months, I have 9 players who will pitch for me. The problem is most also play a second position, SS, 3B, centerfield. Our policy is and it has worked well and helps with the playing time issues, is no player plays the field the game after he pitches and if he has any soreness at all, he does not play in the following game although he may DH. We also always DH for the pitcher which in turn gets some of these other pitchers at bats while they are not in the field. This past fall, as my boys moved up from 15U to 18U we introduced the curve ball to them. Up to that point, no pitcher was permitted to throw it in a game. Pitch counts went fro 80-90 max this past fall and for this summer. They will also play catch on days after they throw. 2 seam, 4 seam and change-up. Location and change of speeds the most effective way to keep a batter off stride.

This has worked for me and the question was asked of a coach. No I would not pitch a player twicw in a week with those numbers and if I did I would expect to hear about it.

My 04 RHP son has dealt with this issue since age 14, but he has chosen to be the one talking to the coach about it, not parents. I did help my son with research so he could make informed judgements. Summer before 9th grade a coach had him throw 90 pitches the first game of the season, then throw another 90 on two days rest, then go play 3B. His arm wasn't ready for that, he was injured, and he lost half a season of pitching and decided to take responsibility for the issue. In 9th grade he was the "ace" of the JV team with an inexperienced coach who wanted him to pitch complete games, every game, in cold Minnesota April. He would say at the start of an inning "coach, this will be the last inning I can go, so someone should be warming up". After the inning was over he would say "okay, I'm done" and the coach would say "no, you're doing great, go one more inning". Coach thought as long as he seemed to be throwing okay, he should throw one more. My son was respectful, and it was not easy for him to insist (the coach was his HS principal!), but he stood his ground and survived the season. He has stayed healthy for the rest of his HS career, although most of his other coaches have been a little more aware of pitch counts and rest times ... he has merely needed to be honest with them about whether he is rested enough or not.

Rule of thumb.

1 pitch off of the mound = 1 hour rest before pitching from the mound again.

100 pitches = 100 hours rest(arm)before pitching from the mound again. This is not to say he can't do some light throwing (loosening-up) after a day or so of rest.

If he threw a 100 on Monday, he should be good to go (if feeling fine) on Saturday.

CV

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Earl Weaver

baseonballs

I can only speak for what we do--- if anything our kids complain that they do not get enough innings because we carry so many pitchers-- granted we are not a HS team with limited kids to draw from but I think we are pretty typical of a summer/fall travel team in terms of roster make up.

T0 play 8 games in four days,as we sometimes do, we need an abundance of arms ---in doing so we are at an advantage when we get to the end pool play and if we make it to the semis and finals we are loaded for bear.

The HS coach may have problems if rainouts get in the picture because many HS teams have but three or four arms they call pitchers, if that many, at least in our neck of the woods.

Good coaches know how to manage their pitchers

And again keep in mind that every kid is different in terms of how they react after pitching.

TRhit

Thanks you all for the responses. However, I am still not getting the response I am looking for. I gave an example. Coaches please reread original post. This post was written for you guys. How would you feel if you were the parent, would you approach the coach even if you were told no discussion about playing time, my way or the highway, what would you do? Would you stay silent and let this continue? What would you do if the coach ignored your suggestions to keep pitch count down, would you be afraid to speak up because the coach has a big ego, doesn't like parents to even suggest they may have made a bad judgement call, might bench your son? I realize many of you have had children that played HS ball. Just let us know how you as a parent would handle this.
Thanks

Pitchers and players should feel that they can talk to the coach. Especially at 16,17 or 18 years of age (young men). Let them or encourage them to be able to communicate their feelings with the coach. I went through this during the past hoops season.I told my son in no way would I call the coach about his playing/starting issues. If he wants to know what he needs to do to get back into the staring line-up ask. He did and started every game the remainder of the season and won the coaches award at the end.

This was a huge lesson for him. I had another experience todat with a player who threw a bullpen session yesterday, 30 pitches and when we warmed up today said he was a little sore. I immediately shut him down, encoraged him to do more light running with anyone else who was sore and he had a light practice. Pitchers are like spring flowers, treat them right early and thjey will blossem later.

"Just curious to know from the coaches out there if any of them would have pitched a kid like that and virtually replaced him if the parent objected"

Twoseamer,
I am wondering how long it will take for an answer.

Ok I'll answer your question. It depends on what level my son is playing. For the sake of discussion lets talk High School level. My son already knows what to do because I have taught him how to protect himself and how to approach a coach. My son would go to the coach and tell him "Coach I have not had enough rest since my last outting and I need more rest". If the coach insisted that he pitch he would tell him "Coach I can't go I have not had enough rest since my last start and I dont want to hurt the team or myself". Now the ball is in the coachs corner. He will have to throw someone else. He can not make him take the hill. Whats the coach going to do then. He has two choices accept it and move on or punish him in some way. Any coach or parent that forces a kid to throw when he is not ready to throw or allows a kid to throw when he has not had sufficient rest is way out of line. If it gets to the point that the parent must step in at the request of the player then it must be done. I have had guys beg for the ball after one or two days rest. I tell them its not worth it even if they have no future in baseball past high school. You can not change the rules because of who the kid is or whether they have a future in the game or not. You must have certain principles that do not waver period. If you open the door it is impossible to close it.

baseonballs

"The parent objected"--where is the kid ?-- the last time my son pitched he came in from the outfield on a day that was 40 degrees warm--warmed up with the allowed 8 pitches--walked the first batter--the coach came out --my son looked him in the eye, handed him the ball telling the coach "don't ever pitch me again if you are going to do this"--my son went back to the outfield and the coach never asked him again to pitch-- my son knew enough to speak up sometimes too often and at the wrong time but he knew when enough was enough.

As a foot note-- I treat every kid who pitches for us like my son-- I want them to speak up-- if they feel they have not got it tell us-- we also talk with every pitcher before he even throws a pitch for us so that we have an idea of how they react to certain number of pitches thrown--how much rest they feel they need between outings to be affective and son on

If a player speaks up the situation described in the original post will never occur--don't put it all on the coach because no two coaches think alike--it is a two way street and one the parent should not even be walking on

TRhit

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He can not make him take the hill. Whats the coach going to do then.

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This week my son has been belittled in front of the team, threatened with being cut, complained about in the newspaper, intentionally hit with a ball in bunt drills, his college coaches have been called and complained to, his parents have been harrassed and threatened, and the other starters have volunteered to follow him, if he left. They don't want to be left behind in the situation. You name it, they can do it in the name of the "Team".

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would you approach the coach even if you were told no discussion about playing time, my way or the highway, what would you do? Would you stay silent and let this continue?

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There is so much discussion regarding talking to coaches, actually the fear of talking to coaches. THESE ARE YOUR CHILDREN! Why would you continue to put your kids in the "care" of somebody whom you feel is abusing them? Isn't that abuse itself?

Sheesh. Lemmings.

Dad04...I feel for you...this should be your son's best year...being a senior and all..

I have a hard time with the mentality of such displays like those you are having to deal with...gosh, all your son wants to do is play ball...and stay healthy.

I have never dealt with playing time issues...but pitch counts have come into play...last year...but things seem fine now...

Sometimes things are not what they seem !!!!!

The mind of parent whose kid does not play as much as Mommy or Daddy thinks he should,can do some funny things !!!!

Logic sometimes never enters the picture !!!

TRhit

Coach May,

I can fully appreciate your response and the mindset that developed it. I would hope that all coaches would adopt such an approach. Unfortunately, the reality is, not all do.

After speaking up regarding a coach pitching a 14 year old kid 3 days in a row, that kid was ostracized by the coach, the coach's son and anyone else who wanted playing time. My son was labeled an "non-team player", a sissy, a wimp...you name it. He even wanted to quit that team. We would not allow him to quit. He did not ever have to commit to play for that coach again, but he finished the season. He finished that season 22-1-1. That's a lot of pitching for one summer. But never pitched 3 days in a row again. Was moved to #3 in the rotation.

Once he started playing high school ball he was put in the varsity rotation as a freshman. He had a coach who was young and eager, but who beleived in our son. We never spoke to this man other than to say hello. He did not overuse our son. He took very good care of him actually. The son of the summer coach...JV sub. was his position. That coach lasted one season after producing the best record that school had had in years. But they "didn't make it to the play-offs". Well to shorten the story...a new coach arrives and meets "some" of the parents. (summer coach and friends) The first thing he tells us is that our son will have to learn to be a team player. We moved to a new school district.

Now...because I spoke up in summer ball about something that I felt was right my son was "labeled". At 14 should he have said NO? Maybe. If he said NO would things still have turned out the same? I don't know. What I do know is that I don't know everything there is about this game. But if something is obviously not right it should be addressed. The how and who seem to be the biggest questions.

After his freshman year my son was invited to play up on one of the best travel teams in our area. This group knows their stuff and they take very good care of their players health. From them we learned the do's and don'ts that I beleive have helped keep him injury free. So my story has a happy ending. I hope all others do as well.

Now...did my speaking up help or hurt my son? I have to say it helped. Others may disagree and I respect that. Do I ever want to have to do that again? Absolutely not. He's older now and has learned a great deal about what he should be doing. I trust him to speak up now if needed.

First, we "throw by committee" the first couple of weeks and so, our pitchers are not going to throw more than 50 in a game that first week for sure and 60 the next. We have a 3=1 (Pitchers/game) mentality and then let them stretch starts out.

This following is directly copied from a portion of our Parent's Meeting Handout. (BTW, our handout is now 8 pages long!)

CONCERNING YOUR SON, BASEBALL AND OTHER SPORTS:

FIRST AND FOREMOST, YOU ARE THE PARENT, IF YOUR SON IS SUFFERING FROM FATIGUE AND/OR INJURIES, YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR SON TALK WITH HIS COACH. IF HE WON’T, THEN YOU MUST! WHETHER THAT CONCERN INVOLVES BASEBALL OR ANY OUT OF SEASON COACH’S DEMANDS UPON YOUR CHILD, WE DON’T WANT TO HURT YOUR SON. IN DEALING WITH POTENTIAL INJURIES OR INJURIES THEY HAVE INCURRED, WE WORK CLOSELY WITH OUR TRAINER JACK EDGAR AND HE, TYPICALLY, IS AT ALL OF OUR PRACTICES AND MOST OF OUR HOME GAMES. AGAIN, AS A PARENT, SPEAK OUT!

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen

CaochB25,

I can tell that you are a coach that is interested in his players welfare. I like your policy and hope that it is used properly by the parents.

Good Luck in your new season.

twoseamer, I'm like most coaches, I'm bullheaded, and sometimes an egomaniac. I do love baseball and my kids. I don't want to hurt them. Winning isn't everything but it is important. I will be fired if we don't. However, I can get a new job. I can't fix an hurt kid if that injury is permanent. I do think that a lot of the focus here has been on negative qualities of coaches. I know few if any that are in this business for money or glory. I do know a few that get carried away but then again, so do I. For the most part, I admire the coaches I coach with and against and I can't sit here and name one that has ever intentionaly hurt a kid. I have done this for 18 years. I know it happens.

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen

CoachB, we don't usually agree on things however I will give you Kudos for your attitude here. Well done.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

CoachB25,

I'm sure you are right. And I know that I may have been guilty of focusing too much on what one coach did. Truthfully, my son has had more good coaches than bad. Thanks for reminding me.

CoachB25...I too needed the reminder...my son has had 3 summers with great coaches and has a really good baseball coach for his senior year.

thanks...

BaseOnBalls,

I think you are looking way to far in the rule of questioning playing time. When , as a coach, I tell parents not to question me about playing time that means why is my son not playing this position, why is my son not playing X amount of innings and etc.... It was not given as a rule to keep parents from questioning me about pitching or overuse. I have all of my pitchers on a strict pitch count and would never throw a kid who pitched 100 or + pitches before they had at least a four day rest. Parents should be concerned about their child's health.

Now the question you have asked. If my child was being overused, yes I would speak up in a heart beat because over use has nothing to do with a coach's rule about non-discussion of playing time. It is only in place to keep some parents who like to whine from approaching the coach because little johnny did not get to start or play shortstop or hit 4th in the lineup, it was not put into place to keep parents from being concerned about over use of their child.

In regards to the battle between coaches and parents is so ridiculous. Some or even most coaches have egos and can not overcome them but in the same breath most parents think and see behind rose colored glasses about their sons ability to play baseball. IMO, I think the reason behind this battle is due to most parents not being able to handle the change from their son being the stud in LL to just being an average player on a high school team.



Scooter