Does anyone know where I can find the stats for the errors committed by each position per game, per chance, per season, etc? Either pro or college, high school would be even better.
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Not quite what I was looking for PG, I wanted something really in depth so I didn't have to do all the math for every player.
Sorry, best I could do.
I can’t give you much help, but I can let you see what I have from my son’s HS years. Unfortunately, the games include about a half season of Fr ball, a little over a season and a half of JV ball, and the rest V ball. All in all it’s a little over 110 games.
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/def2.pdf
See if it helps.
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/def2.pdf
See if it helps.
Scorekeeper - Welcome to HSBaseballWeb, thanks for sharing your information!
quote:Originally posted by rhbaseball:
Not quite what I was looking for PG, I wanted something really in depth so I didn't have to do all the math for every player.
FYI... The info that PG provided easily copies onto excel so you can do totals etc...
rhbaseball,
What are you trying to do? Are you looking for something to compare your players too, looking for the answer to some question you have, are you trying to come up with a new metric, or is it something else?
What are you trying to do? Are you looking for something to compare your players too, looking for the answer to some question you have, are you trying to come up with a new metric, or is it something else?
Well, this year I am goals for myself for this upcoming season. I want to see stats, high school if possible, of how often errors occur at a position weather it be per game, chance, etc.
rhbaseball,
Did you look at the stats I provided? I realize it’s a very small sample, but they are valid.
A problem with trying to find stats of any kind for HS ball is that there’s no central place for them like MLB has.
The closest thing I know of to a national central depositary for HS statistics is http://www.maxpreps.com/
You can pick a state, then a sport, then navigate around to see lots of stuff, but not all schools use MAXPREPS. Also, the stats they keep aren’t exactly in depth stats like you’d find at mlb.com.
FI, you can see the league our local HS is in if you go to http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/Group.mxp/California/B...62-b970-806773118840
As you can see, the only fielding stats there are the FPs, and that’s really pretty worthless for you.
If you keep clicking around, you can get to the team stats. The school my som graduated from can be seen at
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/TeamFrame.mxp/Californ...f950530be/Page-Stats
Now you can see a bit more detail, but you’ll notice the fielding numbers are really nothing more than basic things, and again won’t even come close to what you’re looking for. There are other things that can be entered, but to tell you the truth, not too many teams even mess with fielding stats, let alone in any detail.
Now you have another problem to contend with. Not every HS has a decent scorekeeper, and not all of those guys are willing to track the things you’re interested in. Depending how its done, it might be easy to do stats, or more difficult. I wrote a program to do it, but I have to spend roughly a half hour after every game entering the data.
Other folks keep score electronically, and the data is right there for them, but they need to understand how to get it out. Problem is, there’s literally hundreds of ways to keep the data, and they’re pretty much all different.
Getting past all those problems, there’s still another major hurdle to get over. Even if everything else was there, at the HS level, its pretty unusual to find SK’s who not only know what they’re doing, but they can show up for every game!
But even assuming you get past even that problem, making sure the SK is even close to impartial, is almost a miracle! As hard as I try, I still find myself occasionally favoring the players on my team. In my case its accidental, but there are SK’s who flat out cheat.
On top of that, remember who always has the ultimate control over the stats. The coach! I prefer to be totally autonomous when I keep score. IOW, what I write down is what it is. But, I also don’t mind changing something if I can be convinced I was wrong. However, there are coaches who cheat too!
It may be that they want to make a certain player look better than what he, is so scouts will be influenced, and that happens a lot! After all, a hit for a hitter here and there can make a heck of a lot of difference. A few hits for the other team changed to errors can make a P’s ERA look fantastic!
Take all those problems into account, and what ya end up with are stats that are at best 60-70% accurate overall. Of course some will be spot on, but others will flat out suck. When my son was a Jr, there was a team in the area that had 1 player batting over .800, 2 over .600, and 5 starters over .500. In fact, no starter was below .350. They played below .500 ball for the season, and only averaged 4 total runs per game.
That’s impossible, but its what the numbers said. You see everyone polices themselves, and that makes for a totally unreliable situation.
The good news is, because there are so many teams, every once in a while you’ll run into a yahoo like me who really enjoys this stuff. Problem is, we can only provide the smallest of samples.
Sorry. I wish there was someplace else to steer you toward, but I don’t know of any. Maybe someone else does.
Did you look at the stats I provided? I realize it’s a very small sample, but they are valid.
A problem with trying to find stats of any kind for HS ball is that there’s no central place for them like MLB has.
The closest thing I know of to a national central depositary for HS statistics is http://www.maxpreps.com/
You can pick a state, then a sport, then navigate around to see lots of stuff, but not all schools use MAXPREPS. Also, the stats they keep aren’t exactly in depth stats like you’d find at mlb.com.
FI, you can see the league our local HS is in if you go to http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/Group.mxp/California/B...62-b970-806773118840
As you can see, the only fielding stats there are the FPs, and that’s really pretty worthless for you.
If you keep clicking around, you can get to the team stats. The school my som graduated from can be seen at
http://www.maxpreps.com/FanPages/TeamFrame.mxp/Californ...f950530be/Page-Stats
Now you can see a bit more detail, but you’ll notice the fielding numbers are really nothing more than basic things, and again won’t even come close to what you’re looking for. There are other things that can be entered, but to tell you the truth, not too many teams even mess with fielding stats, let alone in any detail.
Now you have another problem to contend with. Not every HS has a decent scorekeeper, and not all of those guys are willing to track the things you’re interested in. Depending how its done, it might be easy to do stats, or more difficult. I wrote a program to do it, but I have to spend roughly a half hour after every game entering the data.
Other folks keep score electronically, and the data is right there for them, but they need to understand how to get it out. Problem is, there’s literally hundreds of ways to keep the data, and they’re pretty much all different.
Getting past all those problems, there’s still another major hurdle to get over. Even if everything else was there, at the HS level, its pretty unusual to find SK’s who not only know what they’re doing, but they can show up for every game!
But even assuming you get past even that problem, making sure the SK is even close to impartial, is almost a miracle! As hard as I try, I still find myself occasionally favoring the players on my team. In my case its accidental, but there are SK’s who flat out cheat.
On top of that, remember who always has the ultimate control over the stats. The coach! I prefer to be totally autonomous when I keep score. IOW, what I write down is what it is. But, I also don’t mind changing something if I can be convinced I was wrong. However, there are coaches who cheat too!
It may be that they want to make a certain player look better than what he, is so scouts will be influenced, and that happens a lot! After all, a hit for a hitter here and there can make a heck of a lot of difference. A few hits for the other team changed to errors can make a P’s ERA look fantastic!
Take all those problems into account, and what ya end up with are stats that are at best 60-70% accurate overall. Of course some will be spot on, but others will flat out suck. When my son was a Jr, there was a team in the area that had 1 player batting over .800, 2 over .600, and 5 starters over .500. In fact, no starter was below .350. They played below .500 ball for the season, and only averaged 4 total runs per game.
That’s impossible, but its what the numbers said. You see everyone polices themselves, and that makes for a totally unreliable situation.
The good news is, because there are so many teams, every once in a while you’ll run into a yahoo like me who really enjoys this stuff. Problem is, we can only provide the smallest of samples.
Sorry. I wish there was someplace else to steer you toward, but I don’t know of any. Maybe someone else does.
This is something many people are probably interested in, it is really the only way to compare positions. I know what my son does in his positions, but I've wondered if he is playing about where/how he should be. otoh, since this is a subjective score, I guess it is hard to quantify. Some coaches can take information and use it to hurt a kid's confidence. (been there)
Wiki has a few interesting thoughts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_(baseball)
We have seen kids not try to stop hard hit balls - guess they were afraid - so while they seem to be in position and they seem to be playing correctly, they are not.
thanks for asking the question.
Wiki has a few interesting thoughts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_(baseball)
We have seen kids not try to stop hard hit balls - guess they were afraid - so while they seem to be in position and they seem to be playing correctly, they are not.
thanks for asking the question.
Thanks for all your help Scorekeeper.
This is something many people are probably interested in, it is really the only way to compare positions.
Well Anne, it is one way for sure, but it certainly isn’t the “only” way. ;-)
Over the years there’s been a heck of a lot of discussion about better ways to judge fielders. And, there are some Sabermetricians who are devoting much more time to it than in the past, and coming up with some really neat things. Unfortunately, at levels below pro ball, its pretty unlikely you’ll find a lot of SK’s willing or able to track the things that are more telling.
I’ve run into a few SKs who on their own track many more things that tell a better tale about fielders.
One fellow actually tracks each time a fielder touches the ball, whether it’s a PO, A, or E. Things like a line drive single to left get the LF credited with a touch, as well as the IF he throws the ball to, and any subsequent ones who touch it before the play is over. He also tracks things like throws over to 1st as a throw, touch for the 1b, then a throw for the 1b then a touch for the P.
Needless to say, his scoresheet is something not to be view by the faint of heart, but his numbers do show some very neat things. Unfortunately, even a nut case like me who’ll track darn near anything, won’t go into that much detail on a scoresheet.
I know what my son does in his positions, but I've wondered if he is playing about where/how he should be. otoh, since this is a subjective score, I guess it is hard to quantify. Some coaches can take information and use it to hurt a kid's confidence. (been there)
Although I’m sure we’ve all had the displeasure to hear about or have to deal with coaches willing to purposely hurt a player by any means, I think that’s the rare instance rather than the normal one.
Yes, there is a very big part of keeping score that’s subjective, and that is a problem. However, as you go higher in levels, you’ll find that scorekeeping gets better and more consistent, and a byproduct of that is, it gains some objectivity.
So much of how a coach perceives players is really dependent on the depth of his knowledge, and his philosophies, that its really difficult to say whether or not a player is doing what a particular coach wants.
FI, a coach want a team that defends small ball very well. In doing that, he may want a 3B who’s a rocket with a gun, and he might work his P’s to the bone practicing bunts and picks. Now if your son has great hands and an average but accurate arm, he may well never make an error at 3rd, but the coach doesn’t want him there. He wants the other kid who might make errors but has far more range.
We have seen kids not try to stop hard hit balls - guess they were afraid - so while they seem to be in position and they seem to be playing correctly, they are not.
LOL. That sounds a lot like the old THTH(Too Hot To Handle) base hit to me. Here again, there’s a lot more to whether or not it’s a hit or an error than just how hard its it. But experienced SKs will very likely pretty much agree on most of them.
A lot has to do with where the SK is sitting. There is no perfect spot to see every single play, but there sure are a lot of places that make scoring difficult.
FI, the SK sitting in the 1st base dugout or bleachers, trying to make a judgment about a hot shot to 3rd will very likely not be able to make as good a judgment as one sitting right behind the plate. It could be that because of the angle, it looks like the 3B didn’t have time to get near the ball, but from behind the plate, its very easy to see the ball went right under or over the glove.
Here’s an example of how an experienced SK will make a different call than an inexperienced one.
Slow ground ball to 2nd. 2B gets to the ball and throws it to 1st, but the runners safe on a close play. Most SKs would mark it a base hit and go about their business. But, an experienced one is looking at all kinds of things experience has taught him/her to. One of those things is looking at the ump making the call immediately.
If the ump signals safe, it’d probably be marked as a base hit. But if the ump gives the signal that he 1B was pulled off the base, now we have something different happening. Now there has to be more things considered, and there’s a good chance that an error will be charged.
Here’s all the defensive stats I can do. I think you’ll see that there’s a lot more things possible to do with the same little bit of data than just figuring a fielding percentage.
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/def1.pdf
In case you really look closely at the one on page 10 and notice there are some errors for some players but don’t have any type associated with them. No, they aren’t mental errors, its just that I didn’t start tracking errors by type until 2003. ;-)
But even though I’ve tried to look at defense a lot more ways than normal, I assure you there are many more ways I’ve yet to even consider.
So stay interested and keep asking questions. That’s how baseball stays alive!
Well Anne, it is one way for sure, but it certainly isn’t the “only” way. ;-)
Over the years there’s been a heck of a lot of discussion about better ways to judge fielders. And, there are some Sabermetricians who are devoting much more time to it than in the past, and coming up with some really neat things. Unfortunately, at levels below pro ball, its pretty unlikely you’ll find a lot of SK’s willing or able to track the things that are more telling.
I’ve run into a few SKs who on their own track many more things that tell a better tale about fielders.
One fellow actually tracks each time a fielder touches the ball, whether it’s a PO, A, or E. Things like a line drive single to left get the LF credited with a touch, as well as the IF he throws the ball to, and any subsequent ones who touch it before the play is over. He also tracks things like throws over to 1st as a throw, touch for the 1b, then a throw for the 1b then a touch for the P.
Needless to say, his scoresheet is something not to be view by the faint of heart, but his numbers do show some very neat things. Unfortunately, even a nut case like me who’ll track darn near anything, won’t go into that much detail on a scoresheet.
I know what my son does in his positions, but I've wondered if he is playing about where/how he should be. otoh, since this is a subjective score, I guess it is hard to quantify. Some coaches can take information and use it to hurt a kid's confidence. (been there)
Although I’m sure we’ve all had the displeasure to hear about or have to deal with coaches willing to purposely hurt a player by any means, I think that’s the rare instance rather than the normal one.
Yes, there is a very big part of keeping score that’s subjective, and that is a problem. However, as you go higher in levels, you’ll find that scorekeeping gets better and more consistent, and a byproduct of that is, it gains some objectivity.
So much of how a coach perceives players is really dependent on the depth of his knowledge, and his philosophies, that its really difficult to say whether or not a player is doing what a particular coach wants.
FI, a coach want a team that defends small ball very well. In doing that, he may want a 3B who’s a rocket with a gun, and he might work his P’s to the bone practicing bunts and picks. Now if your son has great hands and an average but accurate arm, he may well never make an error at 3rd, but the coach doesn’t want him there. He wants the other kid who might make errors but has far more range.
We have seen kids not try to stop hard hit balls - guess they were afraid - so while they seem to be in position and they seem to be playing correctly, they are not.
LOL. That sounds a lot like the old THTH(Too Hot To Handle) base hit to me. Here again, there’s a lot more to whether or not it’s a hit or an error than just how hard its it. But experienced SKs will very likely pretty much agree on most of them.
A lot has to do with where the SK is sitting. There is no perfect spot to see every single play, but there sure are a lot of places that make scoring difficult.
FI, the SK sitting in the 1st base dugout or bleachers, trying to make a judgment about a hot shot to 3rd will very likely not be able to make as good a judgment as one sitting right behind the plate. It could be that because of the angle, it looks like the 3B didn’t have time to get near the ball, but from behind the plate, its very easy to see the ball went right under or over the glove.
Here’s an example of how an experienced SK will make a different call than an inexperienced one.
Slow ground ball to 2nd. 2B gets to the ball and throws it to 1st, but the runners safe on a close play. Most SKs would mark it a base hit and go about their business. But, an experienced one is looking at all kinds of things experience has taught him/her to. One of those things is looking at the ump making the call immediately.
If the ump signals safe, it’d probably be marked as a base hit. But if the ump gives the signal that he 1B was pulled off the base, now we have something different happening. Now there has to be more things considered, and there’s a good chance that an error will be charged.
Here’s all the defensive stats I can do. I think you’ll see that there’s a lot more things possible to do with the same little bit of data than just figuring a fielding percentage.
http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/def1.pdf
In case you really look closely at the one on page 10 and notice there are some errors for some players but don’t have any type associated with them. No, they aren’t mental errors, its just that I didn’t start tracking errors by type until 2003. ;-)
But even though I’ve tried to look at defense a lot more ways than normal, I assure you there are many more ways I’ve yet to even consider.
So stay interested and keep asking questions. That’s how baseball stays alive!
rhbaseball,
I took the fielding % data from the MLB Website that PGStaff provided and put it in an excel spreadsheet.
I only did SS and 1B.
For SS, there were 21,994 total chances and 633 errors for a fielding % of .971
For 1B, there were 45,860 total chances and 294 errors for a fielding % of .9935
I took the fielding % data from the MLB Website that PGStaff provided and put it in an excel spreadsheet.
I only did SS and 1B.
For SS, there were 21,994 total chances and 633 errors for a fielding % of .971
For 1B, there were 45,860 total chances and 294 errors for a fielding % of .9935
Yes RAH, I did some math myself. Here is a list of all starting shortstops and how many chances they go without an error.
29 R. Furcal
53 M. Young
44 J. Peralta
35 Y. Betancourt
27 H. Ramirez
98 A. Everett
35 M. Tejada
61 J. Rollins
23 C. Guillen
41 D. Jeter
43 J. Uribe
150 O. Vizquel
46 E. Renteria
34 J. Reyes
32 C. Barmes
32 A. Berroa
91 D. Eckstein
23 R. Cedeno
29 R. Clayton
30 B. Hall
68 A. Gonzalez
51 K. Greene
34 J. Bartlett
48 C. Counsell
35 B. Crosby
25 J. McDonald
23 J. Lugo
29 R. Furcal
53 M. Young
44 J. Peralta
35 Y. Betancourt
27 H. Ramirez
98 A. Everett
35 M. Tejada
61 J. Rollins
23 C. Guillen
41 D. Jeter
43 J. Uribe
150 O. Vizquel
46 E. Renteria
34 J. Reyes
32 C. Barmes
32 A. Berroa
91 D. Eckstein
23 R. Cedeno
29 R. Clayton
30 B. Hall
68 A. Gonzalez
51 K. Greene
34 J. Bartlett
48 C. Counsell
35 B. Crosby
25 J. McDonald
23 J. Lugo
Great topic ... and almost impossible to quantify from a simple scorebook.
As an example, I used to chart opposing teams hits by location ... You could look at the chart and get a rough idea of the range of the shortstop by the percentage of ground balls between the SS/3B hole and the 2B bag that made it through to the OF versus ones that were knocked down and/or a play made (of some type).
It's a "stat" of some type ... chances versus potential chances ... that demonstrates range and reaction time. Interestingly, the players with the greater range had no greater propensity for making errors than players with less range. The sample size (1 team) was too small to be of any benefit to anyone except us.
Instead of comparing to HS Stats (corrupt at best since very few scorekeepers really know HOW to keep an accurate book), or college stats (the players are stronger, better and faster so it's not a fair comparison for a HS player) or pro stats (amplify the statement about college players IN SPADES), you may considered keeping the best stats you can FOR YOUR OWN TEAM and breaking the season into quarters.
Report stats and range implicating data for each quarter of the season, with the emphasis being on improvement instead of the emphasis being reaching a mythical goal that's fuzzy at best and wrong at worst.
JMHO .....
Good luck.
As an example, I used to chart opposing teams hits by location ... You could look at the chart and get a rough idea of the range of the shortstop by the percentage of ground balls between the SS/3B hole and the 2B bag that made it through to the OF versus ones that were knocked down and/or a play made (of some type).
It's a "stat" of some type ... chances versus potential chances ... that demonstrates range and reaction time. Interestingly, the players with the greater range had no greater propensity for making errors than players with less range. The sample size (1 team) was too small to be of any benefit to anyone except us.
Instead of comparing to HS Stats (corrupt at best since very few scorekeepers really know HOW to keep an accurate book), or college stats (the players are stronger, better and faster so it's not a fair comparison for a HS player) or pro stats (amplify the statement about college players IN SPADES), you may considered keeping the best stats you can FOR YOUR OWN TEAM and breaking the season into quarters.
Report stats and range implicating data for each quarter of the season, with the emphasis being on improvement instead of the emphasis being reaching a mythical goal that's fuzzy at best and wrong at worst.
JMHO .....
Good luck.
HiHardHeat,
That’s some excellent advice. The only thing I’d change is, I wouldn’t break the season into any time segments at all.
However, I would definitely use date as one of the main pieces of data, and that way a graph can be used to display the results which will do what you’re looking for, showing progression or not,
For my personal use, I detest spreadsheets and graphs, but I’m used to looking at numbers. There are lots of folks though who need to see the data displayed pictorially in order for it to make a lot of sense.
I do want to comment on another specific point you made. Too many people try to compare things that are literally apples and oranges, or don’t have valid numbers with which to do anything but make unfounded statements.
A good example is trying to compare a HS P to a ML P. Yes, they are both pitchers, and its even possible to make them look mechanically pretty much alike. But other than that, the only real similarity is that they’re members of the same species!
FI, in the list rhbaseball provided for SS’s, they range from Omar at 1 per 150 chances, to several players who are I in 23. Toss out Omar to start with. He’s a total and compete fielding freak of nature. No one can compare to him. But even the worst of them is so far superior to all but the most fantastic HS SS in the world, its unbelievable.
Having been an Indian fan my whole life, I got to see a lot of Omar in his absolute prime. So although he still wowed me on occasion, the things he could do didn’t really surprise me, and the truth is, everyone who got to see him a lot got spoiled.
Well, I live in NorCal and by no choice at all, we get to see a lot of Giants baseball and news here. After Omar was traded to the Giants, for it was just like old times watching him, but the folks here couldn’t believe how good that guy is! HE quickly became known as the best SS the Giants ever had, and with every year that passes, more and more Ozzie Smith fans are converting to Omar fans. He’s that good.
This year I got the chance to talk to Fernando Vina a lot at our games, and one day I asked him if Omar was really as good as he looked on TV. His answer was that he played with Omar back in 1993 when they were both with the Mariners. He said Omar was so much better than everyone else, when it was time for him to take IF, almost everyone would stop what they were doing and watch.
That’s some excellent advice. The only thing I’d change is, I wouldn’t break the season into any time segments at all.
However, I would definitely use date as one of the main pieces of data, and that way a graph can be used to display the results which will do what you’re looking for, showing progression or not,
For my personal use, I detest spreadsheets and graphs, but I’m used to looking at numbers. There are lots of folks though who need to see the data displayed pictorially in order for it to make a lot of sense.
I do want to comment on another specific point you made. Too many people try to compare things that are literally apples and oranges, or don’t have valid numbers with which to do anything but make unfounded statements.
A good example is trying to compare a HS P to a ML P. Yes, they are both pitchers, and its even possible to make them look mechanically pretty much alike. But other than that, the only real similarity is that they’re members of the same species!
FI, in the list rhbaseball provided for SS’s, they range from Omar at 1 per 150 chances, to several players who are I in 23. Toss out Omar to start with. He’s a total and compete fielding freak of nature. No one can compare to him. But even the worst of them is so far superior to all but the most fantastic HS SS in the world, its unbelievable.
Having been an Indian fan my whole life, I got to see a lot of Omar in his absolute prime. So although he still wowed me on occasion, the things he could do didn’t really surprise me, and the truth is, everyone who got to see him a lot got spoiled.
Well, I live in NorCal and by no choice at all, we get to see a lot of Giants baseball and news here. After Omar was traded to the Giants, for it was just like old times watching him, but the folks here couldn’t believe how good that guy is! HE quickly became known as the best SS the Giants ever had, and with every year that passes, more and more Ozzie Smith fans are converting to Omar fans. He’s that good.
This year I got the chance to talk to Fernando Vina a lot at our games, and one day I asked him if Omar was really as good as he looked on TV. His answer was that he played with Omar back in 1993 when they were both with the Mariners. He said Omar was so much better than everyone else, when it was time for him to take IF, almost everyone would stop what they were doing and watch.