Originally Posted by monkeyboy:
Originally Posted by baseballmania:

I think any reported velocity needs to be adjusted down 3-5 mph depending if the parent is the one taking the reading.

Monkeyboy...(btw love the avatar !)

There is a HSBBW theorem that goes way back that has proven to be irrefutable:

Try it you will be amazed how accurate it is.

Cheers.

I have heard a lot of exaggerations from dad's when talking about their sons. However, I've also heard the truth from some.  One dad told me last spring that his kid will throw 90 at one of the sunshine showcase events. He topped out at 94!

I guess the harder they throw the less the dad exaggerates. We had a kid that touched 99 mph this year, actually 100 at another event.  Using the 7 mph theory, his dad would be claiming his kid throws 107 MPH. (LOL) If a dad told you his kid throws 107 mph, would you subtract 7 MPH and think he throws 100 MPH? Or would you think Dad is an idiot?

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

However, I've also heard the truth from some.

Thank you for saying that PG.  I have been trying to say this for years, but am not always listened to because I am a dad.  The subtract 7 rule is not universal.  There are some of us out there that are reality based and actually tell the truth.

All of you on here are parents.  Do every one of you exaggerate about your son's velocity?  If someone asked each one of you how hard your son threw, would you add 7 mph to the actual number?  I seriously doubt it.  This is not a universal truth that you have to subtract 7.  In some cases, yes.  But not every case.

I think most dads quote what top velocity their son has hit...not what they actually average...there can be a big disparity.  Mine has hit 92 or 93 but averages around 87 or 88...big difference.  But if i went around telling everyone mine pitched 93 while i guess technically the truth it wouldn't be the whole story.  Rose colored glasses are great but we have to keep it in perspective.  While my sons top velocity may provide a glimpse of his capabilities the reality is is average velocity is much lower and we need to work if we have an eye on pitching beyond HS.

PG's data says the average is 80.

Originally Posted by monkeyboy:

I think most dads quote what top velocity their son has hit...not what they actually average...there can be a big disparity.  Mine has hit 92 or 93 but averages around 87 or 88...big difference.  But if i went around telling everyone mine pitched 93 while i guess technically the truth it wouldn't be the whole story.  Rose colored glasses are great but we have to keep it in perspective.  While my sons top velocity may provide a glimpse of his capabilities the reality is is average velocity is much lower and we need to work if we have an eye on pitching beyond HS.

But you're being honest.  I don't think there's anything wrong with if someone asked you what your son throws, you responded with - He tops out at 93.  You can add that he usually sits at 87-88, but you wouldn't be lying if you said he tops out at 93.  The way I see the subtract 7 thing is if someone is asked how hard does their son throw and the kid tops out at 84, but the dad says he throws 91.

Many dads asked me how hard my son threw in h.s.  I always told them the truth and, of course, they'd come back saying their kid threw that or harder.  Of course, I knew it was nonsense.

I don't worry about it anymore because all of those dads and their players have disappeared.

Tell the truth about velocity.  You don't want some college or pro scout to show up thinking your son is tossing 89 when he's really at 80.  If your son takes a sudden jump thereafter it may be like the boy who cried wolf.

My son is a sophomore in HS. He throws an ocassional bullpen and maybe an innning here or there on V. I do not see him as a pitcher, he is only 5'9". People say he throws very hard and are always asking me what he has been gunned at. My answer, no idea and unless he is touching 90 I really don't care.

my son is similar in size and  hit 90 this Fall. While Most pitchers r bigger guys it's not always the case. Does he want to pitch in HS and beyond?  If he goes to a showcase he will get a velocity number. It's only part of pitching but a big one. The number gets their attention, but he has to have more than that-location, and good offspeed pitches. What it comes down to is not the size of the pitcher but how the ball comes across the plate.

I never exaggerate my sons Velo, because it can be easily checked on the PG Web Site, and I don't want to look like an idiot.  I also like people to trust what I say, and if you aren't truthful about sons' abilities, people won't believe value your opinions.

Originally Posted by playball2011:

my son is similar in size and  hit 90 this Fall. While Most pitchers r bigger guys it's not always the case. Does he want to pitch in HS and beyond?  If he goes to a showcase he will get a velocity number. It's only part of pitching but a big one. The number gets their attention, but he has to have more than that-location, and good offspeed pitches. What it comes down to is not the size of the pitcher but how the ball comes across the plate.

Yes I hear you, size is not the only factor but it does matter more for RHP when it comes to recruiting. He can take it or leave it as far as pitching, but would do so if asked. He would rather be a position player if given the choice.

Amen bballman and rynoattack.  I don't exaggerate my son's velocity for the same reasons.  Plus I keep score in iScore with a radar gun (to accurately enter speeds, and hopefully accurately peg pitch types and locations) and anybody around me can see what the radar says!  LOL...

Bum has been saying for years that the average speed for HSV pitching is 78, and that jibes pretty darn well with PG data.  I do believe more parents exaggerate than don't, and very often somebody will tell me their son throws "mid-80s" and they rarely break 80 on the gun.  The "rule" discussed here is probably a decent rule of thumb, but most aren't dumb enough to exaggerate quite THAT much to somebody holding a radar gun!  Though they do still exaggerate (most, not all).

BTW, I do agree that an accurate picture can't be painted with only reporting peak velocity.  I almost always report peak + a "sits at" range, whether for my kid or anybody else's.

Don't get me wrong everyone. I know there are people who exaggerate their kid's velocity. I've seen it myself. It just personally bothers me when the generalization is made - with a smirk - because I don't do that. And I know there are others, I'm sure most on this board, who don't either. Just kind of a bug-a-boo I've got.

Now that we have solved that lets talk about parents and POP time exaggerations.

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Originally Posted by monkeyboy:

Now that we have solved that lets talk about parents and POP time exaggerations.

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Amen to that, brother!  Not only do you have the parental exaggeration factor, but even when the time is correctly reported, you have the "catcher fudge factor" where the kid is practically standing before he even receives the ball!  Not sure I trust any POP time that isn't recorded during a game....

That's why I always ask if it is a game pop time or was a during a clinic or showcase time. Both are useful information, with real game time usually a little slower.

Exaggeration just sets the kid up for failure.  Others become quickly disillusioned when a player and his abilities are exaggerated.  We had a dad on our travel team that would over hype his son, pimp him out to all sorts of other travel teams, only to have those travel teams quickly become disappointed with what they actually saw this player was able to do. He was quite a player at the younger ages, but was not projectable, and sure enough, did not keep up with the others as they grew.  I am sure that exaggeration of abilities would be no different with college coaches, scouts, etc.  Just isn't fair to the kid, to exaggerate his abilities.  Will come back to bite you.

I think if my son topped out at 90 I could say he has touched 90.  I don't have to see consistent 90 mph, to know 90 is something possible for that pitcher.  Sure, the consistent 90 is better, but the one time 90 is very good.

also, from past experience I think some parents get confused rather than fibbing.  We once had a dad complain about the top velocity we reported for his son.  He claimed he saw our gun read 93 mph.  Actually he did see that, but it was definitely the velocity off the bat. Seeing that we record every pitch, we explained that his son's fastball ranged from 82 to 85 and topped at 86 on one pitch.  When this happens a pitch doesn't out of nowhere throw one 93.   But dad saw it and thought his son threw one 93. BTW, this is something that happens more than you would think.

also, sometimes parents will ask someone with a radar gun what velocity they got on their son.  This information is not always accurate,  sometimes they give MPH of a different pitcher. Sometimes they just blurt out a number so they don't have to look it up.  And sometimes the number is actually different than what we got.

Point is that parents are not always exaggerating. Sometimes they're just misinformed.

Of course the brand of the gun can misrepresent how fast\slow velocity is as well.

That's insane that parents would want a measurement that they know their sons could not match again.  Then again, I've been around the mom or dad that thought Jr was then next Nolan Ryan (poor folks).

To defend some (not all) of the oft maligned Dads...

Most of the 'exaggerations' come from ignorance and confusion.  Idle bystanders and some posters see cruising speed, and Dad/Son/Scout is interested in max speed. Ex. you see a kid throwing 80-83 in a HS start, and Dad says he throws 87.  Bystander thinks 'Dad radar'.

Also, PG does not always show a kid's max speed today.  Ex. a kid may have pitched at PG a year ago, and is pitching faster today.  Also, some kids are retarded (ahem), and pitch slower in their only PG tournament. Etc.

Last edited by SultanofSwat

As we are in HS season, any update for this thread?  What is the average pitching speed for high school?  Please identify your area of the country.

I've seen the AVERAGE JV be around 72-74, Varsity around 82-84 (South East).

I'd say average V speed I've seen is maybe 78-80. A few in the mid-80s, a few mid-70s, so quite a spread. Of course, this is highly anecdotal.

I was sitting behind my son and other pitchers charting a game. occasionally the radar gun will give a goofy reading, after a pitch the gun read 142 mph... the boys were joking about it and a man sitting a few seats beside me was emphatic that there is no way that kid is throwing 142.  the boys showed him the radar gun reading, they told him the gun is never wrong.

It was fun for a few minutes!

Those are probably pretty close. I think around Chicagoland Soph is 73-78 Varsity is low 80's.  I think this year with new pitching rules we are seeing more pitchers and the average will probably skew lower for all levels.

I've been to 4 games....one of the top guys in our area was 85-86.  Our top guy is 80-81 and the other guys I've seen have been anywhere from the upper 60's to low 70's

Average cruising speed is probably mid 70s but the players who get to the next level throw much harder.

Coaches are also prone to stretching truth.  Our coach told our kids a guy on the rival team was throwing 93.  Our kids were not excited about facing him.  We saw the kid pitching against another team in a tourney.  A coach from the college he has signed with was there watching him with the gun.  Kid sat 87 and hit 89 a few times.  I made sure our kids heard the gun readings. It took a bit of mystique away from the kid who had signed with a SEC school.

Not that it mattered.  When we faced him he 3 hit us with 7 Ks over 8 innings.  However, our pitcher who sits 83-84 matched him over those 8 innings.  Giving up 3 hits with 2 Ks.  It was 1-1 after 8. Both pitchers reached the pitch count limit of 120 on the last batter of the 8th. Great pitching duel.

Keep in mind that a pitcher's velocity may change 4-5 mph depending on the outing.  My son had a game his senior year of HS where he hit 90 on his 90th pitch of the game.  Other games he was 86-87.   Season opener of his college season this year he went 91-90-91 the first 3 pitches of the game and hit 92 for the first time.   He was pitching in front of 6800 people and was pretty pumped up.  He has been 88-89 the rest of the year.

JV Game the other night, opposing pitcher was OPPOSING!  6'8", lanky, looked like he could throw 100!  Was LUCKY if he hit 60!  You just never can tell...

Dominik85 posted:

Average cruising speed is probably mid 70s but the players who get to the next level throw much harder.

There's no way the average high school senior speed is mid 70's. Mid 70's would be the slowest senior speeds at the smallest high schools. The average is going to vary based on school size and quality of program. A senior would average about 80. In a large classisfication high school seniors probably average 83-85. Given my son was on a first place team they almost always saw the other team's ace. They saw nothing but 84 or better.

Last edited by RJM
Buckeye 2015 posted:

I've been to 4 games....one of the top guys in our area was 85-86.  Our top guy is 80-81 and the other guys I've seen have been anywhere from the upper 60's to low 70's

Once again I think the term "average" makes this a little difficult.  Maybe the better metric might be a school's #1 pitcher with both max and sitting speeds.  Our team has a pretty wide range and I'd guess the "average" is around mid-70's, but #1 is more like mid-80's.  Did face a kid who maxed out at 97, but he is an outlier.  That said, many of the larger schools around here have a kid or two throwing 90+ - may not be their #1 starter and may or may not be effective as my kid swears he can hit just about anybody as long as they throw it perfectly straight.

RJM posted:
Dominik85 posted:

Average cruising speed is probably mid 70s but the players who get to the next level throw much harder.

There's no way the average high school senior speed is mid 70's. Mid 70's would be the slowest senior speeds at the smallest high schools. The average is going to vary based on school size and quality of program. A senior would average about 80. In a large classisfication high school seniors probably average 83-85. Given my son was on a first place team they almost always saw the other team's ace. They saw nothing but 84 or better.

Agree as well. We are a larger NW Illinois school and most of what I've seen lately, are numbers are up. 80's or better. Our team was just gunned this week by PBR.  Have 2 guys topping 90/91 and one at 89. Rest pretty much low/mid 80's at worst. Have one kid in our conference who was one of the hardest throwers at Jupiter last year. BTW the 2 guys at 90, one is a soph the other a junior.

We are a 4A (out of 6A-being the biggest) school in AZ (Phx metro).

Seen 95 at the top end & 78 at the low end (FB's) with the average or norm around 82-86. The kid that threw 95 committed to LSU as a Soph (RHP 6'3" and a few over 200lbs). He's also hit about 5 bombs this year

I would guess that the average high school varsity pitcher nationwide is throwing upper 70's.... That is factoring big schools/tiny schools, everything.... The median/average is of course going to be below the top flight pitchers

Here's some data: according to PG, the average FB velocity at its tournaments and showcases during calendar year 2016 by a pitcher in the class of 2017 was 81 mph. That's probably a fairly good estimate for the average velocity by a senior. On the one hand, sure, there were some non-pitchers throwing at PG events. OTOH, probably the bottom third or bottom half of HS baseball players would never even consider playing in a PG event.

So I agree with RJM's estimate of 80-ish.

Here's some data: according to PG, the average FB velocity at its tournaments and showcases during calendar year 2016 by a pitcher in the class of 2017 was 81 mph. That's probably a fairly good estimate for the average velocity by a senior. On the one hand, sure, there were some non-pitchers throwing at PG events. OTOH, probably the bottom third or bottom half of HS baseball players would never even consider playing in a PG event.

So I agree with RJM's estimate of 80-ish.

Just half of high school pitchers don't pitch in PG events?  I gotta think it is much more than half.  Possibly 75% of high school pitchers don't pitch in Perfect Game events would be my guess.  There are a heckuva lot of high schools in the USA!

I coach JV at a 3-A high school (1200 kids). Over the past few years one thing I have enjoyed doing is after my JV game is concluded I go up to the press box  and watch the varsity game.    I often have my radar gun  with me and discreetly take readings during the game.

I can confidently say the average high school pitcher  that I see tops out somewhere between 72 and 78.    Sophomore's playing varsity tend to be the 72 to 74 range and juniors and seniors anywhere from 75 to 78.   It is a very rare occasion that I see any velocity 80 or higher.

But once in a while I will see a kid hitting 85. And I can guarantee you that is a kid who puts a lot of time in, studies the game, and works very hard to hit that number.    Most of our kids where I teach and coach do not play year around. They are 3 to 6 months players at most. That being HS season, then Legion ball  then put the glove away at the end of July and not take it out again until high school tryouts next spring.

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach
#1 Assistant Coach posted:

I coach JV at a 3-A high school (1200 kids). Over the past few years one thing I have enjoyed doing is after my JV game is concluded I go up to the press box  and watch the varsity game.    I often have my radar gun  with me and discreetly take readings during the game.

I can confidently say the average high school pitcher  that I see tops out somewhere between 72 and 78.    Sophomore's playing varsity tend to be the 72 to 74 range and juniors and seniors anywhere from 75 to 78.   It is a very rare occasion that I see any velocity 80 or higher.

But once in a while I will see a kid hitting 85. And I can guarantee you that is a kid who puts a lot of time in, studies the game, and works very hard to hit that number.    Most of our kids where I teach and coach do not play year around. They are 3 to 6 months players at most. That being HS season, then Legion ball  then put the glove away at the end of July and not take it out again until high school tryouts next spring.

Do you think the shorter baseball season has any effect on the velo?  I have to say it sounds on the low side.

I clock speeds for my kid's team.  Our team personally has two Jr.s who rarely break 76, and are mostly 72-74.  A sophomore who is mostly low 70s up to 78.  A senior who will average 75 or so but can touch 81.  A sophomore who struggles to break 70, and is a curve ball specialist.  A Jr. who is 77-78.  And a Jr. who is 79-81 and can touch 83.

Other teams will regularly throw guys at us who are low to mid 70s.  We've seen about 6 guys who could get it into the 80s including 3 or 4 who could hump mid to upper 80s.  Guys who can fling mid 80s, even low 80s are not a dime-a-dozen in high school.