Avoiding a Tag in the First Base Line

As long as the B/R didn't run more than 3 feet from a straight line between home and first he's OK. All the pitcher had to do to put him out was throw the ball to first base.

The B/R in this case is not running the bases in reverse order to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game. He is simply backing up to avoid being tagged. If he doesn't violate the 3 foot rule he isn't guilty of anything.

pretty alert baserunner, if i do say so myself. not so alert pitcher however

Thanks, Pilsner. If I understand you correctly, then, there's no rule (in Fed. or OBR) requiring the batter/runner to run only towards first base. At the time, I saw the play the same as you and BB, but the more experienced baseball people around me (all fans of the home team) were convinced that the batter/runner should have been called out also (maybe for abandoning effort?).
The outcome of the play (Runner on 1B w/ 1 out) is not really what we were looking for from a successful bunt.

MPDad05,

Abandoned effort would not apply for the scenario as described in your original post. Abandoned effort applies to a runner who has left the basepath believing that he is already out or perhaps that the third out has already occurred and his actions give indication that he is no longer trying to run the bases. Also, abandoned effort does not apply unless the runner has at least touched first base.

In baseball he is allowed to retreat toward the plate but not cross it. Good call by the umpire, bad play by the pitcher.

Not such a bad play by the pitcher. Had he gone for the force at first, would've been man on 2nd, 2 outs. Instead he has a man on 1st with 2 outs. Seems to me he played it well.

Sometimes in baseball a bad play turns out ok.......

Many people on my team have told me that if there is a force at the base you are running to, and you stop and run back to avoid a tag, then you are out, but not if you just come to a complete stop. I don't know if this is true, but I would like to find out. I am in UIL in Texas, not sure what rules we use, but that may be of some help for someone who may know.

You may retreat but it may cause more problems than it solves. If you do it as in the original play then you would be out when you touch home. If you do it between bases then a couple of things could happen. The fielders could touch the advance base and you would be out. The runner could retreat to the base he was coming from and both runners end up on the same base. In this case the lead runner would be out when tagged. The last being, by retreating he could cause the trail runner to pass him in which case the trail is out.

Pilsner says, "...abandoned effort does not apply unless the runner has at least touched first base."
Is that true?
We have had many cases where the ump has called our kids out for this after a "3rd strike not caught" situation. Sometimes the kid who has struck out (nobody on base) will head for the dugout before he realizes that the ball was dropped - then, after his teammates shout at him to run, he takes off. But umps have called them out for "abandoning effort".
Hmmmm...

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Solty:
Pilsner says, "...abandoned effort does not apply unless the runner has at least touched first base."
Is that true?
We have had many cases where the ump has called our kids out for this after a "3rd strike not caught" situation. Sometimes the kid who has struck out (nobody on base) will head for the dugout before he realizes that the ball was dropped - then, after his teammates shout at him to run, he takes off. But umps have called them out for "abandoning effort".
Hmmmm...

Inless the kid has entered the dugout this is a misinterpretation of the rule. You remember AJ Pierzynski last year right? The reason he did what he did in the ALCS was that he'd been catching the previous season and a batter had swung at a dropped third strike and had retreated nearly all the way to the dugout before being sent to first base. He was called safe at first and Pierzynski didn't forget when it happened to him.

Coach Solty,

There are some essential differences between a runner being called out for "abandoned effort" and a batter-runner giving up his right to advance on a "third strike not caught".

On a third strike not caught the batter-runner may advance at any time, as fvb10 stated, until he has entered the bench area or dugout. If the ump called him out prior to that, he did so erroneously.

For an out call to be made for abandoned effort, the ump doesn't have to wait until the runner reaches the bench area or dugout. As soon as the ump determines that the runner, by his actions, is no longer attempting to run the bases he can declare the runner out. This could be a matter of the runner heading for his defensive position or the runner thinks he is out and begins to jog off the field toward his bench or dugout.

The difference between the two rulings could also determine whether a run counts.

Runners on second and third with one out.
Third strike is not caught and batter walks back to bench while runners advance to home and third. The runner who advanced to third sees the batter walking away and thinks there are three outs. He heads toward his dugout and is declared out for abandoned effort. (2nd out) The batter then enters the bench area and the ump calls him out. (3rd out) Since the third out was made by the batter before he reached first base, even though the runner from third had already touched the plate when the out call was made, the run does not count.

Runners on second and third with one out.
Third strike is not caught and batter walks back to and enters the bench area while the runners advance to home and third. The ump then calls the batter out. (2nd out) The runner who is now at third thinks there are three outs and starts toward his defensive position or toward his dugout. The ump calls him out for abandoned effort. This is the third out but the run scored counts.

The net result of both scenarios is three outs and both involve a batter who gives up his right to advance because he entered the bench area and abandoned effort by a runner. However, in one scenario a run scores and in one it does not.

quote:

The runner could retreat to the base he was coming from and both runners end up on the same base. In this case the lead runner would be out when tagged. The last being, by retreating he could cause the trail runner to pass him in which case the trail is out.

Micheal I think you might be wrong if I read your post correctly. Based on how I read your post lets say runner on first and second and there is a double steal attempt. The runner on second (going to third) gets a bad jump and does not continue but the runner from first (going to second) DOES continue. Next thing you know both runners are touching second base. Shortstop (or any fielder) comes up and tags both runners. The runner going to third is safe because he was occupying the base originally. You do not give up ownership of the base until you reach the next one. The runner coming from first is out because he does not have a right to that base until it is given up by the previous runner.

If I read you wrong my apologies and if I am wrong on the rule please someone let me know what is the right call.

TRhe lead runner is out in the case given because it was a force. Any other time it is the trail. On a force, as long as it is still in effect, you lose your right to occupy your base.

Good point Micheal. I guess I didn't put much thought into my point. I guess the point I am making if there is not a force play. Runners on 2B and 3B where neither have to move.