Back Shoulder

hotcorner,
Could you take a look at these and tell if this is what you feel you look like.

I would be hesitant to have you do a drill to "level out" your shoulders.

IF, I am understanding, correctly, what you want to do.

Here are two still pictures of Manny.
One at the start of his swing and one at contact.
(I've included the full clip too)

LClifton,
thanks for the advice, but the pics did not come through can you please try posting them again?

I'm working on it for you...sorry I'm having a little difficulty.

I think the trouble may be related to the file type (.bmp).

Here it is as a gif:

Contrary to what many have heard around lots of ballparks from well meaning parents(and sometimes coaches), it is OKAY to "dip" your back shoulder as you see in the pictures of Manny.

We've all heard it... "Don't dip your back shoulder!" People mean well when they say this. They are just misinformed. How are you going to hit a pitch at your knees with level shoulders. Try to simulate that swing and see what it looks like.

Where lots of players get in trouble dipping the back shoulder is when they are ALSO swinging down on the ball. That's a bad combination. Now, if you are attempting to match your swing plane to the plane of the pitch(swinging level to the ball not the ground), then dipping your back shoulder to get on plane in necessary and helps a hitter maintain proper balance throughout the swing.

A hitter making the conscious effort to swing with level shoulders will have his weight come forward onto their front foot. Now, if a pitch is up in the zone then your shoulders WILL(or should) level out on this pitch. There is no need to dip and try to elevate a ball that is already elevated. You want to level out on high pitches.

I have some drills I teach players when I work with them, but they would be kind of hard to explain here. I'd be happy to try to help you. If you go to my website, there is an email address there to contact me and a phone number. Feel free to email me a way to contact you or feel free to call me.

First off, I am not going to talk about "style". There are things that hitters do that have to do with what I call their "style" and this sometimes has to do whith shoulders/elbows, etc. , but every good hitter gets to generally the same "load place" before a good swing starts. That being said, there are two observations that I would make.

First, you haven't posted a clip or pictures so we are assuming some things. I would get someone to watch your swing and look to see if after you get to that "load place" in your swing, if you have your back elbow raised very high. If this is the case, the only way you can get your hands through with a short swing is to drop that shoulder drastically. This could be causing you to "drop your shoulder".

Secondly, you mention that your "hips rotate fine" but you describe that your "back shoulder falls back toward the ground or catcher". One thing you need to make sure is that not only are you rotating your hips through but that they are rotating through and down. If your hips are rotating through and up (sounds like what is happening) then your back shoulder will dip back towards the ground/catcher. This is a very common mistake. Rotate your hips through and down and your hands/shoulder will follow them through the zone in the proper manner.

CT makes a good point that your back shoulder may change position to get on the correct swing plan for the pitch. This is combined with getting the hips through and down.

Look at the belt buckle area in the clip of Manny and see where it goes early in the hip rotation. He is rotating through and down. This particular pitch is on a plane that is low and therefore the swing is adjusted for the plane of the ball.

As for drills, you don't even need someone to pitch to you to work on this correction. Get out in your back yard and practice picturing the pitch coming in and then start your swing with your hips rotating down and through and let them lead your hands and shoulders through the zone with a short swing. Practice this until it feels natural and then don't think about it when you get in the batters box. Just let it happen.

Good luck!

quote:

Look at the belt buckle area in the clip of Manny and see where it goes early in the hip rotation. He is rotating through and down.

I see through and up.....

quote:

Rotate your hips through and down and your hands/shoulder will follow them through the zone in the proper manner.

Proper manner for what?...MLB hitters don't do this....

BD,

You say that you see "through and up", I'm not talking about after contact, that is the nature of the follow through and where the pitch was located. The beginning of his hip rotation is down and through. Put your arrow on the clip where he starts and see it go down from there. It sure doesn't go up from there. The point that I was making was it sounded like the player asking the question is starting his hip rotation through and up and that will make his shoulder dip towards the ground/catcher. You sure don't see Manny's shoulder dipping back towards the ground/catcher. That's because he starts his hip rotation down and through.

As for "Proper manner for what?", for keeping your hands inside the ball, keeping the bat in the hitting zone longer, keeping the bat on the plane of the pitch longer, giving yourself the best chance to make the best contact with the ball, getting good back-spin on the ball for the best carry. The hip rotation drives all of this. Tony Gwynn (just a Hall of Famer) believes this and teaches it. Hips lead the hands to where they should go. Adjustments are made to match up with the plane of the pitch.

quote:

Put your arrow on the clip where he starts and see it go down from there. It sure doesn't go up from there.

Yes, it does...

quote:

Rotate your hips through and down and your hands/shoulder will follow them through the zone in the proper manner.

The hands and arms decide the swing plane, regardless of what the hips are doing.........

Also, the hands and arms are not dependent on the shoulders....

BD,

"Yes it does..."

Yes it does, what?

This is not an opinion thing. Put your pointer on the belt at the start of the hip rotation and tell me where the first movement of his hips are. Don't try to just win the arguement with short questions and no answers ...
To use the advice you always hand out... tell me what you see, not what you think you see. Yes, the hips eventually move up but that is long after they move down and through.



"The hands and arms decide the swing plane, regardless of what the hips are doing...."

I completely agree. That's where the adjustments come in to make sure the bat follows the plane of the pitch.

If the back side collapses, though, it is almost impossible for the hitter to have his arms and hands get the bat onto the swing plane for any significant length of time. You can get a hit this way but it has more to do with luck than purpose.

My point to the questioner was to answer his question not argue swing mechanics... "how to help him from collapsing his back side". I pointed out that since he didn't include a clip or picture that I was just giving him something to look for. One thing that could cause him to collapse his back side is if his hips rotated only up before contact instead of down and through contact. If the pitch is on the plane in the "Manny clip", the hips eventually have to move up through extension (and will on most pitches) because of the pitch location.

quote:

Put your pointer on the belt at the start of the hip rotation and tell me where the first movement of his hips are.

Up is my answer.....That's what I see....

HC32,

Okay, I'm done with the arguement with with BD because as usual when he can't answer a question or can't add anything to the discussion or someone else gives good advice that he might disagree with, he always starts the "partial sentence comments" that accomplish absolutely nothing.

He wants to be the only person to give advice on hitting.

If you really want help with your concern/question, seriously consider looking at the couple of things I mentioned. If they work for you, then great you've gotten some good advice and it has helped. If they don't work for you, then try something else.

Obviously, BD doesn't have any suggestions for you.

BD,

You've lost credibility here. Everyone following this thread, whether they agree with one side of the arguement or the other, can do the process at the beginning of the hip rotation and easily see that his back hip rotates down and through to contact before it rotates up after contact. It is what it is...

Not to join in the argument, but “UT” I’m not sure I can see it either.

I see the first movement down you speak of, but that is just a result of the stride. The longer the stride the more the hips have to drop. It can’t be avoided; you can not stride and raise your belt level at the same time. Can you?

If we look at the point the swing actually starts forward (launch) until contact is made I think I see upward movement of the belt buckle area. This also makes sense because of the upwards angle of the swing path and weight transfer.

Perhaps I don’t understand your point completely, but I’m trying hard to see what I see. Could you explain a bit further what you mean? I do believe you surely know what you’re talking about, I just can’t really see it in that swing. Not to the point of contact anyway.

Thanks

PG,

Now, we are getting somewhere. Thanks for your discussion and questions; not just partial sentence arguement.

Maybe I misdirected everyone by my comments about the belt buckle. I pointed at this particular area because it is an easy thing for everyone to find. I agree with you that the belt buckle drops because of the stride but now, with the belt area being your reference point, look at the back hip as it rotates forward to contact, that hip rotates down and forward to contact, it isn't much movement down because of where the pitch was but it is there. It definitely doesn't move significantly up until after contact and towards extension.

There is a lot of things that have to happen when hitting a baseball and things change because of where pitches are thrown, but I guess my point in this whole things is that the back hip must rotate "down" at first instead of "up" so that the bat is in the zone longer and not pulling out of the zone because the hips rotate up from the beginning. Let me say it another way and compare it to the path of the bat. I think that we can all agree that the path of the bat comes from load in a downward arc through to the hitting plane and then levels out through the hitting zone and then begins to move up during extension and follow-through (a flattened arc). This is what I am saying the path of the hips during rotation will look like. If the hips fire and the rotation of the hips is only "UP", then the path will not be easily kept in the hitting zone along the path of the pitch. I get the opportunity to observe and work with a lot of young (HS age) players and I see this as a common mistake. Kids have been told/taught that they must get their hips through to hit the ball hard (and that's true) but I see a lot of kids rotating their hips "up" and it winds up pulling everything out of the hitting zone, almost like "pulling your head off the ball".

Again, my point was not to argue swing mechanics because there are as many opinions on this as there are people. I was simply trying to offer HC32 some ideas of what might be causing his problem without getting a look at his actual swing via clip or pictures.

On a completely different note, does anyone else see what appears to be pieces of a bat flying away from Manny after contact is made? It's hard to tell but the bat doesn't look broken during follow-through but the clip definitely shows something looking like bat shards flying away from him. Any ideas?

quote:

I think that we can all agree that the path of the bat comes from load in a downward arc through to the hitting plane and then levels out through the hitting zone and then begins to move up during extension and follow-through (a flattened arc).

I can't agree with this........There's no flattening of the arc.....No leveling out...And, that is for any pitch location....

No matter how you power your swing, whether it's with hand torque or shoulder rotation, once you "go" it's all out to ball contact.....There's no time to distort the arc even if you wanted to....

We want to hit the ball in the middle....Not the bottom or the top.....We're looking line drive, not pop-up or ground ball......We want the middle, baby.....

The trajectory for bat-ball collision is up.....Leave the park homerun up......

quote:

BD,

You've lost credibility here. Everyone following this thread, whether they agree with one side of the arguement or the other, can do the process at the beginning of the hip rotation and easily see that his back hip rotates down and through to contact before it rotates up after contact.

Well, so far two of us don't see it....

You can talk about credibility until the cows come home, but, I still see up, not down........So does PG....

There's no need to get upset.....We're just telling you what we see, that's all.......And, LClifton already gave the poster some good advice.....Go back and read his post...It's really good......

Now, I'm not too smart, but, that fella PG is......He probably was a catcher....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

BD,

You've lost credibility here. Everyone following this thread, whether they agree with one side of the arguement or the other, can do the process at the beginning of the hip rotation and easily see that his back hip rotates down and through to contact before it rotates up after contact.

Well, so far two of us don't see it....

You can talk about credibility until the cows come home, but, I still see up, not down........So does PG....

There's no need to get upset.....We're just telling you what we see, that's all.......And, LClifton already gave the poster some good advice.....Go back and read his post...It's really good......

Now, I'm not too smart, but, that fella PG is......He probably was a catcher....

Make it 3!!!

utbaseball

quote:

Maybe I misdirected everyone by my comments about the belt buckle. I pointed at this particular area because it is an easy thing for everyone to find. I agree with you that the belt buckle drops because of the stride but now, with the belt area being your reference point, look at the back hip as it rotates forward to contact, that hip rotates down and forward to contact, it isn't much movement down because of where the pitch was but it is there

I see what you see. I digest it a little different though.

If the cursor is on his belt buckle at go, and you leave it there, the buckle goes down and forward first before coming back up. The pattern resembles a bomerang on its nose. Im not sure of the significance though.

quote:

Originally posted by UTBaseball:

I agree with you that the belt buckle drops because of the stride but now, with the belt area being your reference point, look at the back hip as it rotates forward to contact, that hip rotates down and forward to contact, it isn't much movement down because of where the pitch was but it is there. It definitely doesn't move significantly up until after contact and towards extension.

If you tied a 3' stick across his butt cheeks, you would see that his hips are turning on the plane of the pitch at go and continue on this angle through follow through. It appears to go down because his back leg is bending at the knee (to allow him to swing on the upward plane).

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I think that we can all agree that the path of the bat comes from load in a downward arc through to the hitting plane and then levels out through the hitting zone and then begins to move up during extension and follow-through (a flattened arc).

I can't agree with this........There's no flattening of the arc.....No leveling out...And, that is for any pitch location....

No matter how you power your swing, whether it's with hand torque or shoulder rotation, once you "go" it's all out to ball contact.....There's no time to distort the arc even if you wanted to....

We want to hit the ball in the middle....Not the bottom or the top.....We're looking line drive, not pop-up or ground ball......We want the middle, baby.....

The trajectory for bat-ball collision is up.....Leave the park homerun up......