Back Shoulder Dip/Drop

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
Apparently I do that sometimes...I think that might even be worse than all the time because I don't even understand exactly what someone is doing when he drops his back shoulder.

1. The back shoulder automatically goes lower than front during rotation.

This must be true. I've tested it, and every hitter does it.

2. I then thought maybe my bat was dropping before I swing (during windup/while ball is in the air). However, I've seen many good hitters freeze framed and before launch their bat is parralel to the ground with back elbow tucked.

3. Whenever my coach tries to show me he does this extreme example and I clearly don't do it that much so I have no idea what is going on.

4. I am open to the fact that perhaps my coach is simply judging on results of each and every swing. If I mistime the pitching machine (Among other users of this site, I do suffer from this problem occasionally.) and I don't make hard solid contact, then only that swing it a problem.

If someone can explain what my "diagnosis" means, it will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Try to have someone film your swing. Take the film to your Coach and ask him to show you what he is talking about. Have someone throw pitches to different locations to see if you dip the same on every pitch or if you do so to reach certain pitches (which you should do). You have to tilt your shoulders on most pitches, so I don't see that as a problem, but until you do the filming and get the Coach to show you exactly what he is talking about, you are going to keep getting the same comments from him and that helps no one. The fact remains, he is the one you have to please if he is the one you are going to play for.

The back shoulder drop is not a problem. If you have a flaw it may be in the hand action. How do the elbows look? The front shoulder and elbow should go up while the back shoulder and elbow should go down from launch to contact. This is the correct movement to get the bat on plane. If the elbows and shoulders are level from launch to contact, the hands are just pushing the bat.

Catch43,
Xv is correct in that the back shoulder must work itself down during the swing. But how it drops/works down is important. If you are immediatedly dipping the back shoulder with no movement of the hands/elbow, you'll have problems.

Real question...do you have this problem versus live pitching or just against the machine? If just against the machine, that is fairly common as alot of hitters have problems picking the ball up properly, even MLB players I've talked to. Personally, I found it alot easier to hit 85 from a live pitcher than 75 from a machine. I'd bet that you pop up alot in the cages against a machine. The coach blames a dipping back shoulder when actually your swing may be late because of difficulty in visually picking the ball up in time.

Coach is probably showing you "keep the bat barrel above your hands" stuff more than likely. Up to a point, this has merit but only in the very start ( really early like when the hands are starting to get the bat on plane). This used to taught in the days of "throw the bathead at the ball" and in linear style hitting. Works well in linear but not so well in rotational hitting.

I like what PTAF said about filming your swing and having you and the coach break it down. Ultimately, what XV,me and anybody else thinks is absolutely pointless...he's the coach and you have to make him happy, you being happy isn't part of the equation in who gets playing time.

XV,

Omigod...the front elbow and shoulder...bat plane. Rear elbow.

You're getting it.

When did you convert religion?

The end is coming, the end is coming, the end is coming....LOL

I think you nailed it S. Abrams. I'm late. I'm always self concious about not "cheating" and I do to much while the ball is in flight, while essentially in live pitching, you take quick stride and swing.

Can someone please explain the difference between rotational and linear hitting?

Back shoulder does dip but make sure hands don't drop! Hands stay above barrel.
Travel Baseball USA.com
http://travelbaseballnj.com/hitting%20video.htm

I have this problem too

I think its more bat head then it is shoulder.Everyone lowers their back shoulder a bit in their swing.I think when you do breakdown your backside(which is probably more proper then "dropping your back shoulder")your bat head is attempting an uppercut.Then your top hand is not being explosive through the strike zone,but rather lagging behind,causing a poor result more often then not.

I great drill I do for this just about every night is what i call the weight stack drill.You dont need a weight stack,it could be a large storage bin or step ladder that is atleast 4.5 ft tall.You swing repetatively and quickly over the weight stack(or i use a ladder at home that is roughly at my belly button height).You are forced to clear the object with your swing,or else you knock it down or swing right into it.Dont worry about anything but clearing the object,not your starting spot of your hands,not ANYTHING.The point is to get it in your muscle memory to swing level,and not drop the backside which causes you to drop the bat head.

hope that helps

quote:

The point is to get it in your muscle memory to swing level,and not drop the backside which causes you to drop the bat head.

You have missed the point!

The point really is to know the proper arm action....The same is true for throwing!

futureCA-
swing level to what?
why is bathead below hands a bad thing?

HIGH TEE DRILL- a good drill to fix the uppercut (extreme back shoulder dip) is to place a regular tee on a bucket. the ball on the tee should be at arm pit or shoulder height. tell hitters that this is not a pitch to swing at in games but only a drill to correct the uppercut and extreme dip of the back shoulder. Hitters must remain tall (back shoulder too) to get to the ball at this height.

quote:

......tell hitters that this is not a pitch to swing at in games but only a drill to correct the uppercut and extreme dip of the back shoulder.

How will this fix the problem?....After all, you said they shouldn't swing at this pitch in a game....

Do you drop the back arm to throw?....Of course not....

Use the same arm action to hit that you use to throw......

BD -

Highly agree.

Break hands wrong when you throw and it's over.

Use hands wrong to load in hitting and it's (MLB pattern) over.

As Slaught says, if you can throw, you can hit.

The best description of how you load to throw/decribing throwing from beginning to end is Jeff Hodge.

This can then be carried over successfully to learn how to load for hitting.

Hitting is somewhat different from the getgo because theor is more of an alternating back arm front arm rhytm as opposed to the more symmetric front and back arm action for throwing.

To carry over to hitting, you get the alternating action down as part of rhythmic prswing activity, then the back arm/top hand goes first with similar action to the back arm for overhand throw.

Slaught emphasizes the sidearm/throwing action for slotting the back elbow which works for low back elbow type hitting.

getting the back elbow up then down is as you mention like the "keep the back elbow up" cue.

This cue violates reality which makes it difficyult for some to use. In both throwing and hitting, you often have the action and pattern right and the feel of the back elbow staying up so it can get connected right, BUT if you look at video, the back elbow usually has to come down some, but it needs to stay back and up as much as possible.

The reason it comes down some is the way freedom of motion is limited in the way the shoulder ball and socket works.

You need to keep the back elbow back and up as the back arm externally rotates. When you do this, the elbow usually needs to come down as the external rotation proceeds becasue of these limits of range of motion, BUT the elbow can not lower (aDduct) or come forward (flex) by primary muscle action in these directions or you will end up disconnected.

You can feel and control the action in the hands so that the back elbow stays up/back as much as possible.

Grip and sequence prior to this also has to be compatible, and this action/sequence is similar to overhand throw.

Just an example of how counterintuitive cues can be when you try to look at them in depth on video.

quote:

Break hands wrong when you throw and it's over.

Tom, can you explain how this works?

BD-

I wish someone would upload the summary portions of Hodge's biomechanicbaseball tape. This would allow a common ground.

Hodge instructions:

1- get sideways to target

2-break hands with elbows up/out and palms down/back

kinesiologically, this means break hands with symmetric arm aBduction and INternal rotation.

Most kids do the opposite at first, break hands with palms up and elbows down, the dreaded "W" (or what me worry) position as they are viewed face on. From there you are dead.

3- keep elbows up

4-when throwing hand comes up, front thigh turns over via simultaneous external roation of back arm abnd front leg. This times/synchs the upper and lower body/coil well.

Back arm action leads loading of the swing up until the point of starting the rubberbandwinding/coil/rotation into toe touch which starts right after you "show the front sole".


You can practice this with one armed back arm tip and rip action, for example with self toss.

The back arm dominates until just after the untippng starts then the lead arm gets more active in the 2 armed MLB pattern.

Thanks, Tom!!

As far as throwing instructions, Hodge overall:

When the throwing hand comes the front thigh turns over.

Then body will start to turn forward and lay throwing arm back (continue smooth uninterrupted external rotation).
Keep head behind center (belly button) until body turn starts,then bring weight forward,
Land on firm flexed front leg.

Pronate through release.

Hitting advice was more skimpy but effective with radial deviation of bottom hand wrist, holding hinge angle and aiming for inside seam of ball.

Good stuff, Tom!!

the high tee drill was explained to me by brad howland a hitting instructor with the yankees...

it is a drill specifically designed to correct a flawed swing... ive used it with younger hitters that have an uppercut. The drill helps the hitter get the feel of leading with his hands.

i like to compare it to the way derek jeter takes swings in the on deck circle... is that the same swing he uses in the game? no, but you can see he is emphasizing the hands. paul oneil used to do the same thing.

quote:

it is a drill specifically designed to correct a flawed swing...

Drills that cover-up symptons don't work......That's why you gotta keep doing 'em all year and year after year...

Teach proper arm action...Then, drill that...You'll be getting somewhere.......

Gater022,

You are right.

The high tee drill is a good drill for hitters fighting a kink in their swing. It happens at all levels (no matter what some on this board think).
All hitters...ALL HITTERS...go through slumps and minor swing flaws from time to time.
Not all the Yankee hitters use the high tee drill...only those fighting a swing problem. They are trying to get back in the groove and find their swing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Gater022, alot of posters on this board aren't as dense as they sound...they just like to argue.

I know one of John Cohen's (University of Kentucky) drills is having a hitter stand on a temporary pitching mound. One drill has the hitter on the down slope and one on the up slope. I would guess these drills are used to fight the same problem, but I always thought Ted Williams used the high tee to work on pitches up in the zone for two strike situations. I believe Tony Gwynn did the same.

I've never understood nor used the high tee drill. I have seen pitchers work on mounds with the slope in reverse. I've heard Coach Cohen speak and have talked to him personally. He has some good stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
I've never understood nor used the high tee drill. I have seen pitchers work on mounds with the slope in reverse. I've heard Coach Cohen speak and have talked to him personally. He has some good stuff.

I think it's more of a personal preference type of thing. More for individuals to work on certain pitches they may be having a problem handling. I never really saw it as a tool to fix a mechanical flaw.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
I've never understood nor used the high tee drill. I have seen pitchers work on mounds with the slope in reverse. I've heard Coach Cohen speak and have talked to him personally. He has some good stuff.

I think it's more of a personal preference type of thing. More for individuals to work on certain pitches they may be having a problem handling. I never really saw it as a tool to fix a mechanical flaw.

I agree. We have two very successful coaches in our area that do this drill. I'm not comfortable copying "stuff" people do. I want to understand the "whys" and I just don't get it. Of course, I'm thick headed. You all knew that. BTW, Coach Cohen does a drill that I posted here a couple of years ago on working the inside, middle and away pitches. I truly love this drill but having a feeder that is capable of delivering the ball is essential. I'm very impressed with Coach Cohen.