Back to the bat thing

quote:

Received this add in an email. Any question now as to whether or not the bat makers know what they've got? Any question about how they're marketing (i.e. to the home run crowd)?

Please....please tell me you are kidding.

Do you understand product marketing at all?

________

SLAM Bat - SB-73 Pro Maple


This is the most popular new style model in the big leagues today. Barry Bonds made it popular! A real power-hitter's wood bat!

______


BWP Mr. Nasty - Pro Maple Bat



Many players are requesting a full 2 5/8 inch barrel with a 15/16 flared thin handle. Here it is from BWP, with the 2005 Mr. Nasty. Guaranteed to bring meat to the table.

_______

SAM BAT Maple Baseball Bats
We are The Original Maple Bat Corporation, the makers of SAM BAT. Our Founder, Sam Holman, was the first to use maple, a significantly harder wood than ash, to create a major league sanctioned bat in 1997.
SAM BAT is the standard by which all other maple bats are measured.

Our mission is to craft the highest quality maple wood baseball bats available anywhere. Our wood bats are treated with care and undergo heavy scrutiny for any flaws at each and every stage of production, from the cutting of the logs to the drying in our kilns. We only have one quality of wood for game bats and that is pro.

The result is a superb instrument that transfers more of your power to the ball. SAM BATs also boast a larger "sweet spot" for hitting. SAM BATs wood baseball bats are Major League Sanctioned and Little League® Approved. Discover why so many love SAM BAT baseball bats!

_____

Really, this has reached the point of comical.

Here is another one.

Click on "models" after arriving at the site. Make sure the sound is on.

Give me an idea as to what crowd you think this company is marketing to?

http://www.mashbats.com/frameset.htm

If you manufacture a bat, the idea is to get people to think yours hits the ball better, further and more consistent than the next guy be it metal, composite, ash, maple, tin foil, shoe leather or bubble gum.

You already have more than enough valid reasons to push wood. After reading the "opinions" thread, what the heck. Rip me up and throw rocks at me if you like but posts like this do nothing to help your cause.

quote:

Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
Rip me up and throw rocks at me if you like but posts like this do nothing to help your cause.

Well, you've already taken care of that aspect with this:

quote:

Really, this has reached the point of comical.

Respectful, really respectful.

If you cannot see the difference in the words, "Reduced mass in the barrels creates...faster swing speeds," <-that old MOI thing....and, "produce ultimate performance along the entire length of the barrel" and, "massive sweet spots"<-ooooh!, that old sweet spot thing...and, "maximizes energy transfer"<-ah, that old kinetic energy thing.

Its all about the physics baby...and you've never acknowledged that.

You appear again within minutes after I post this add.

Yes, yes indeed...you bit and I am now convinced you are exactly who I thought you were. No problem, got it!

quote:

Yes, yes indeed...you bit and I am now convinced you are exactly who I thought you were. No problem, got it!

I bit? Help me understand what kind of game you are trying to play? I was functioning under the assumption that I was dealing with grown adults on this site. Was I wrong? So just who do you think I am?

Yeah, I am a common sense voice of reason. You want me to be someone to fit a template so you can keep your agenda on track? Fine.

In reality, just know that you have absolutely no idea who I am or what I care about or don't.

Like I said and you can choose to listen or not....

Marketing 101 is marketing. It doesn't matter if it is about bats, baseballs, gloves, cars or cologne. The idea is to get people jazzed up about a product. Period.

Your mistake is continuing to try and make this about something that it is not about. You have a agenda and come hell or high water, you are going to use whatever you deem necessary to push it. That fact alone will continue to inhibit your ability to understand who is actually trying to help you or hinder you as it pertains to achieving that agenda.

So, go ahead and keep throwing the rocks. It's ok. Just know that at the end of the day, there will always be people like me who break this down to common sense and defuse it from emotion. It's who I am......99%of the time. You can either deal with that or choose to place me or whoever else decides to publicly voice differing opinions into a neat little box that keeps you from doing so.

Back to your original post. What do you have to say about the wood bat manufactures and their marketing tactics? Especially the last one I referenced? Just who do you think they are marketing to and do you think it is equally as bad? "Rock hard" "Hit like the pros" "Barry Bonds made it popular"

As for physics? Either you have not read a single post I have made on this subject or again, you have chosen to ignore it. There can be no doubt that metal bats give a hitter a better chance to get a hit and a better op to take one for a ride. Those are the facts. Metal is more forgiving. Period. End of story. I sincerely hope that is perfectly clear, in case you missed the many other times I have said the exact same thing.

quote:

You appear again within minutes after I post this add.

BTW...I missed this gem. I am sitting in a hotel, bored out of my skull, watching food network. Just finished watching the Braves get beat by the Phillies . I travel quite a bit and I love visiting this site since my son is officially in the mix as it pertains to what this site offers. I have found some great advice for both myself and my son since he is seeking to continue to the next level, what ever that level may be.

I assume that is still the goal of all that post here or is it about playing games that solidify who you think others are?

Hilarious.

You rest your case on marketing and I rest mine on physics and you say:

quote:

You have a agenda and come hell or high water, you are going to use whatever you deem necessary to push it...

You're so he!!-bent on your agenda, that you cannot see that I was pointing to the physics-based admissions in the marketing. Absolutely hilarious.

Let me repeat:

* "Reduced mass in the barrels creates...faster swing speeds," <-that old MOI thing

* "produce ultimate performance along the entire length of the barrel" and, "massive sweet spots"<-ooooh!, that old sweet spot thing

* "maximizes energy transfer"<-ah, that old kinetic energy thing.

Like I said, got it!

quote:

...there will always be people like me who break this down to common sense...

"Common sense" does not trump forces, velocity, energy and physics. Your "common sense" is off.

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"Common sense" does not trump forces, velocity, energy and physics.

forces, velocity, energy, AND physics.

I love it.

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"Common sense" does not trump forces, velocity, energy and physics. Your "common sense" is off.

Help me understand why you are completely ignoring what I post?

Is there a part of this that I need to further explain or provide more details?


"As for physics? Either you have not read a single post I have made on this subject or again, you have chosen to ignore it. There can be no doubt that metal bats give a hitter a better chance to get a hit and a better op to take one for a ride. Those are the facts. Metal is more forgiving. Period. End of story. I sincerely hope that is perfectly clear, in case you missed the many other times I have said the exact same thing."

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

"Common sense" does not trump forces, velocity, energy and physics.

forces, velocity, energy, AND physics.

I love it.

Must work for the Department of Redundancy Department.

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You rest your case on marketing and I rest mine on physics and you say:

I rest my case? You post comments on marketing techniques from a bat manufacture, I comment on it explaining marketing 101, including the same marketing spiel from wood bat makers and this is your response? Why no comment on how wood bat makers specifically market their bats?

Again, for some reason, you can't quite grasp the fact that I am not against you. I am just trying to help you approach this from a common sense standpoint and bringing up marketing is far from that approach. I didn't start the thread. I just commented on it. Again, I thought that is how it worked here. People start threads, others comment. Is that not how it works? I admit, I am still a newbie here.

I'm just waiting for justbaseball to expose 1baseballdad's true identity.

Maybe he's Batman.

Blah, blah, blah...you're picking on the wrong thing Jimmy. I typed fast, I wrote a redundant phrase.

Don't ignore the truth with red herrings.

quote:

I'm just waiting for justbaseball to expose 1baseballdad's true identity.

Maybe he's Batman.

Funny thing is, on my way to the hotel tonight, I saw a new Camero with personalized plates that said

"OPT Pr1m"

I thought it was pretty cool but I was scared to pass him.

I can help anyone who doesn't understand that one. Yeah, my son thought I was an idiot when I called and told him about it.

Seriously, why does anyone who who brings up legitimate questions on this subject automatically work for the evil metal bat manufacturers?

That brings up another interesting question. If Louisville Slugger is evil for pushing metal bats, should I stay away from their wood bats?

Nah, the wood bats guys also make Coke Zero.

Explains the taste.

quote:

Nah, the wood bats guys also make Coke Zero

I honestly don't know how to respond to that one.

Again, I applaud the effort to get HS age kids and above to hit with wood. I will support it in any way that makes sense. Number one son loves to hit with wood and he hits it well so chalk that one up to my own selfishness. Honesty isn't a crutch or barrier for me.

That being said, someone needs to counter superficial arguments such as this so that not too many people drink the kool-aid and stop doing the pertinent due-diligence as it pertains to this discussion. You want wood? Great. You think I am tough with the questions I ask? You better be prepared to go well beyond what I bring up in order to achieve the goal.

quote:

That being said, someone needs to counter superficial arguments such as this so that not too many people drink the kool-aid and stop doing the pertinent due-diligence as it pertains to this discussion. You want wood? Great.You better be prepared to go well beyond what I bring up in order to achieve the goal.

Seems like there is a distinction to be made. Someplace in there you went from making a point, perhaps a good one, to a whole bunch of arrogance of "I."
From what I know of this issue, this isn't about you. You are not, and won't be, the guy standing in the box with this in his hands:
"Focused Flex technology maximizes energy transfer and increases power through the hitting zone"
while he wears the brand new 95-100 mph rated helmet, elbow pad and other protection.
You, and as you posted in January, especially your son, are not the pitcher on the mound with no protection, still standing about 55' from that ball coming off a metal bat at 4-8 or so mph faster than wood.
To me, this isn't about you and proving anything to you or your ability to be statistically rigorous. However, to me,that is what comes across to me when you post this:
"You think I am tough with the questions I ask? You better be prepared to go well beyond what I bring up in order to achieve the goal."
To me, this is the question: are you willing to say it is A-OK for your son,or any son, to stand on that mound, throwing every 5th day for about 100 or so pitches and take his chances against this:"Focused Flex technology maximizes energy transfer and increases power through the hitting zone" Do you want your son, or anyone's son to be part of the reliable study that has yet to be done when nothing has been done to protect pitchers in over 30 years?

quote:

Seems like there is a distinction to be made. Someplace in there you went from making a point, perhaps a good one, to a whole bunch of arrogance of "I."

So how many more times do I have to be accused of being someone I am not before I am allowed to explain myself? Sorry, I did the "I" thing again.

quote:

Do you want your son, or anyone's son to be part of the reliable study that has yet to be done when nothing has been done to protect pitchers in over 30 years?

Since you went there first, let me ask you this. Do you want to your son to be a part of a statistic that could have been avoided by focusing on other real safety issues rather than the bat? Say moving the mound back, softening the ball, mandatory helmets/facemasks, etc?

See how that kind of question works now?

The fact is, they ARE part of that study since they play the game. That isn't difficult to understand.

quote:

You think I am tough with the questions I ask? You better be prepared to go well beyond what I bring up in order to achieve the goal."
To me, this is the question: are you willing to say it is A-OK for your son,or any son, to stand on that mound, throwing every 5th day for about 100 or so pitches and take his chances against this:"Focused Flex technology maximizes energy transfer and increases power through the hitting zone"

Again, you went there so I will respond in kind. To me, you sound like you seem to be OK with kids getting nailed with a ball as long as it is hit off of wood. Sorry but I just don't understand that line of thinking. No, I am not sorry about that. I am perplexed by that line of thinking. To me that is absurd quite frankly. Are you also saying as long as the company doesn't hype their marketing about a product that it's all good in the end if a kid gets nailed?

Do you really not see how absurd this argument has become? Now you want to argue over marketing terms and hype from a metal bat maker and ignore it from a wood bat maker? Really?

quote:

To me, you sound like you seem to be OK with kids getting nailed with a ball as long as it is hit off of wood. Sorry but I just don't understand that line of thinking. No, I am not sorry about that. I am perplexed by that line of thinking. To me that is absurd quite frankly

I am perplexed by that line of thinking as well. I am perplexed that with all that has been posted you would suggest that I, or anyone, am "OK" with kids getting nailed with the ball... just make it wood. That is absurd thinking.
As for the balance of your post, all I can say is you continue to be the master. Asked one question, respond with many others.
Seems to me like quite the political answer which is to not answer but focus the question and the issue elsewhere.
My view is that as opposed to saying it is okay that the players ARE part of the study, I don't really need the bodies.
I am able to recognize that when a metal bat is marketed, it is marketed to many, many folks such as those who post here. Folks/parents/players who are concerned with stats and results and performance.
Same is true with wood.
However, I also know how the ball exits isn't the same.
One is the VW. One is the Porsche.
Finally, I recognize that in the race to get to an object standing directly in front of each of them the Porsche gets there first. No matter how you market the VW, it does not win that race.
No matter how wood is marketed, it does not generate exit speeds that equate with metal. I don't read anything you posted about wood that suggests otherwise.

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One is the VW. One is the Porsche.

Yes and in the right or wrong hands, both can and will kill you so I am not sure how that analogy fits in, unless you are trying to support my point.

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No matter how wood is marketed, it does not generate exit speeds that equate with metal. I don't read anything you posted about wood that suggests otherwise..

And if this is about the integrity of the game, I am right there with you. If you try to take that statement and make it about safety, I am going to call you or anyone else on it every time.

This is NOT about safety so just stop trying to make it about safety. You have more than enough valid arguments to further the goal of getting wood back into the game than this straw dog.

Safety is a simple, easy emotional crutch. It also isn't valid.

Statistically speaking, that point is proven over and over again. I know...you don't want to use statistics, you can see with your own eyes.

But then again, you want to use statistics to prove your point that because a metal bat gives a hitter a greater ability to put a hard shot in play, the pitcher has a greater chance of getting nailed.

You don't get to play that both ways. You either use statistics or you throw them out...on both sides.

This argument get mixed every time it is introduced. It starts out about "safety" and invariably ends up about integrity.

Do yourself a favor and stick with that aspect of it. There will be and can be no argument when you approach from that angle and you will get far more people on board with your agenda by doing so.

Do you really not understand that?

Now forgive me but I have to run. Giving a presentation on the virtues of Westmere, Nehalem EX and why my products are better way to move forward than UCS or Matrix. No, those aren't metal alloys either.

I really don't think that 1baseballdad is a troll or an undercover spokesman for a bat company because, well, frankly he's just not that good at it.

Neither one of you have really made much progress toward advancing your arguments in your last 30-40 posts.

However, unlike most people, I'll admit that watching two guys make complete a$$es out of themselves is really pretty entertaining.

I'd encourage you both to keep at it.

Your dogmatic position that it is not about safety is acknowledged. Makes me curious why the metal bat industry financed the UNC effort if it isn't about safety. Makes me curious why the Patch lawsuit and others have been filed if it is not about safety.
Your dogmatic shout down and direction to "not make it about safety" suggests that anyone with an opinion different than yours is not allowed and better not express it.
Sorry. Yours is one opinion. Just like in a jury room, for instance or on election day. Everyone gets a vote. No one gets a trump vote, including you.

"Do yourself a favor and stick with that aspect of it. There will be and can be no argument when you approach from that angle and you will get far more people on board with your agenda by doing so.

Do you really not understand that?"

Like I posted before, comes across arrogant, but now at a new level of arrogance and self importance.

quote:

I'll admit that watching two guys make complete a$$es out of themselves is really pretty entertaining.

In the eye of the beholder my friend. Lets just say another one has been added in the eye of this beholder.

1baseballdad you are one pompous, arrogant and self righteous dude. What I've learned from these threads is that, more than anything, you like to hear yourself talk.

Glad I'm not attending your sermon, I mean presentation.

This debate has been fascinating to watch. 1baseballdad's commitment to this issue is impressive...yet comes across as nearly panic-stricken. Why? The biggest threat to the hollow-bat industry is that solid bats get deemed as safer. 1baseballdad is beating the skins off the "it's not about safety" drum.

Actually, it IS about safety...and a whole lot more. Ask yourselves what sort of industry would turn its back on those at risk and dismiss the experiences, educated opinions, and observations of the many, many fine people here...some of whom are true experts.

Getting kind of tired about the statistical stuff. Not sure there are any meaningful statistics to prove anything when it comes to serious injury. The one thing we can assume is that the best hitters are more likely to cause serious damage to the pitcher. Seeing that wood bats have primarily been used in professional baseball (Where most of the best hitters are) we are likely to see a higher number of injuries there than in amateur baseball.

The question is or should be… What would have happened had they been using metal bats in professional baseball over the past 20 years? Guess that’s something we will never know, but to me, it’s a scary thought.

If a young boy can hit a ball hard enough to inflict serious damage… What would happen when a good professional hitter hits the ball? Of course we know that those good professional hitters were most all great amateur hitters when they were younger. Good, strong hitters are NOT safe to pitch to no matter if it's wood or metal. But with metal they become even more dangerous.

We have been playing baseball with wood bats for about 17 years. Thousands and thousands of games. Can’t tell you how many times we’ve seen balls hit off of all parts of the pitchers body including the head. Luckily we have not had any extremely serious injuries. Then there are the many times we’ve seen pitchers get their glove up just in time to keep from getting nailed. If the ball is traveling faster and is being hit more often, as we all know it is with metal… it doesn’t take a genius to figure out which is more dangerous.

There’s a reason they use L-Screens for BP rather than just ducking out of the way or catching line drives. Some are hit so hard that human beings can't react fast enough. That will happen "more often" with metal! Don't need any statistics to prove that to me. That makes it a safety issue! The only thing that's getting in the way of change is a money issue!

If one is more dangerous than the other simply because of what the bat is made out of… I see it as a safety issue! We don’t have to move the mound back from where it has been for over 100 years, because that would change the game drastically. I do think the ball should be investigated to see if it’s possible to make it softer without affecting play. But there is one thing that stands out as the easiest solution. We just need to make one simple change that actually returns the game to where it was for the first 80 years and the way it is still played at the highest levels.

And that is just “one” reason, by far not the “only” reason, baseball needs to go wood!

quote:

If one is more dangerous than the other simply because of what the bat is made out of… I see it as a safety issue!

I agree....IF

Clearly this is a highly emotional topic. Based on the insults tossed around in this thread alone, there can be no doubt of that.
Lets pull any and all emotion out and deal with a few facts.

Wood = 98mph exit speed
Metal = 105 mph exit speed.

98 mph equates to 143.733 feet per second.
105 mph equates to 154 feet per second.

At 60 feet, the wood batted ball reaches the pitcher @ 60 feet in .417 seconds.
At 60 feet, the metal batted ball reaches the pitcher @ 60 feet in .389 seconds.

That is a difference of just under 3 100's of a second. Say it again. 3 100's of a second.

The pitcher is nailed no matter what. So much for the reaction time myth. These are the numbers. These are the facts. It is what it is.

I am not even factoring in the fact that the pitcher is actually CLOSER than 60 feet when he finishes his motion. Think about the fact that the pitcher is in a prone position when he finishes. Less than 3 100's of a second difference.
Keep saying it. Let that sink in.

An analogy was made elsewhere and it holds very true.
Switching to wood from metal for safety reasons is like switching seats on the Titanic.

quote:

Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
Clearly this is a highly emotional topic. Based on the insults tossed around in this thread alone, there can be no doubt of that.
Lets pull any and all emotion out and deal with a few facts.

Wood = 98mph exit speed
Metal = 105 mph exit speed.

98 mph equates to 143.733 feet per second.
105 mph equates to 154 feet per second.

At 60 feet, the wood batted ball reaches the pitcher @ 60 feet in .417 seconds.
At 60 feet, the metal batted ball reaches the pitcher @ 60 feet in .389 seconds.

That is a difference of just under 3 100's of a second. Say it again. 3 100's of a second.

The pitcher is nailed no matter what. So much for the reaction time myth. These are the numbers. These are the facts. It is what it is.

I am not even factoring in the fact that the pitcher is actually CLOSER than 60 feet when he finishes his motion. Think about the fact that the pitcher is in a prone position when he finishes. Less than 3 100's of a second difference.
Keep saying it. Let that sink in.

An analogy was made elsewhere and it holds very true.


Switching to wood from metal for safety reasons is like switching seats on the Titanic.

To me putting a helmet on a pitcher solves all.

but but but.....

You do not put helmets on pitchers---next you will want them to wear gear like a hockey goalie


Accidents happen in all sports---it is a fact of life

quote:

Based on the insults tossed around in this thread alone...

Started by you. Remember your first post on this thread?

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Really, this has reached the point of comical.

(Oh, and spare me...I know I've lobbed a few too).

You ignored (again) the energy the ball carries is related to the velocity squared.

The time difference you quoted is big when we're talking about recognition and then moving your head about 2-4 inches.

All the same rhetoric above in your post...going back over 20 years. Easy to find on Google. Got it!

quote:

Started by you. Remember your first post on this thread?

Yeah, I said it was silly (comical was the actual word I used) to point to marketing terms as some sort of nefarious evidence of anything. I still maintain it is silly to do so. I am sorry you didn't like that but I didn't start the thread either. True, I didn't have to reply to the thread but then again, I thought that is what this site was about? I also pointed to the silly wood bat marketing terms to prove my point. Again, you didn’t like that either and that’s ok by me. BTW, care to trade "comical" for the insults directed toward me?

I have been called worse so it's no biggie, especially if it helps the people wragging on me feel better.

AND, I didn't expect you to acknowledge the raw numbers but...

I kept hearing you guys talk about reaction time so that is why I posted them. Less than 3 100's of a second. It is what it is.

As for energy, if you could explain that one a little bit more, maybe I can give you a response that you keep asking me for. All I know is that getting run over by a bus at 40 mph vs 45 mph is going to produce the same results. Just as getting hit with a baseball traveling at 98 mph vs 105 mph. The end results aren't good in either case.

quote:

As for energy, if you could explain that one a little bit more, maybe I can give you a response that you keep asking me for. All I know is that getting run over by a bus at 40 mph vs 45 mph is going to produce the same results. Just as getting hit with a baseball traveling at 98 mph vs 105 mph. The end results aren't good in either case.

More rhetoric aimed at disguising the facts. The difference is large when we're talking about a baseball doing "work" on a human face in a concentrated fashion.

JUST exactly what was your purpose for starting this thread ?
Talk about self righteous.

Glad to see you back BHD. I'll start worrying if/when you're ever on my side of a discussion.

quote:

The difference is large when we're talking about a baseball doing "work" on a human face in a concentrated fashion.

So you are actually saying there is going to be a large difference between the damage done by a baseball traveling at 98mph vs 105 mph? I just want to make sure I don't put words in your mouth and I understand exactly what you are saying.

You will always find me on the side of rational thinking.

quote:

So you are actually saying there is going to be a large difference between the damage done by a baseball traveling at 98mph vs 105 mph? I just want to make sure I don't put words in your mouth and I understand exactly what you are saying.

I'm saying there's about a 15% difference in the amount of kinetic energy upon impact. Thats a large difference when the solution is to use a better product (most would agree) that is already available and has been used for over 100 years.

Assume, for just one second, that its your kid...do you want the added 15% or not?