Bagwell and Thomas

Yes.

I'd second that. Two brilliant careers.

Can we agree, with some certainly, the Big Hurt will NOT be a 1st ballot HoF in five years, simply because with his current Free Agency status, he will be playing.

How long is asked? Another 52 HR over three years while turning 40 in the summer of 2008 has the right number to it (ie 500....and a 1st ballot ring-a-ling in 2013!)

Will he complete his career with two, three or four clubs? My guess is three. The third may likely occur for a playoff / pennant run in August 06!

Will he accept something less than $8M per year!
You bet! $5M rounds off pretty well, doesn't it?

cheers
Bear

OBTW: Bagwell needs 51 to reach the magic number! And to not sound as redundant, yet will Bagwell complete his career with two, three or four clubs? My guess is three. The third may likely occur for a playoff / pennant run in August 06!

Bear, my guess would be one.

Call me crazy, but if he can't throw at all, I have a feeling he'll retire... with the Astros. He's a great character guy, as is with Frank.

Whoooo!!!!!!!!! Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless and until Gil Hodges gets into the Hall, I could never justify Bagwell or Thomas. While Thomas had a few very specactular years, and Bagwell has clealy achieved standards no one would expect, Hodges, to me, must be in the Hall, before they get a sniff.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Whoooo!!!!!!!!! Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless and until Gil Hodges gets into the Hall, I could never justify Bagwell or Thomas. While Thomas had a few very specactular years, and Bagwell has clealy achieved standards no one would expect, Hodges, to me, must be in the Hall, before they get a sniff.

Hodges was a fabulous player, great manager, and a true gentleman...and about as close to having good All-Star stats for entry into the HoF without getting in. (I remember as it was yesterday Hodges winning the WS with the '69 Mets, yet more vividly, his 'learning years with the Senators (mid 60's)

Hodges has stats similar to the other Frank J Thomas (ie NL 50's thru mid 60's), and a few others you may recognize...
Rocky Colavito,
Jack Clark,
Kent Hrbek,
George Foster, and one of my favorites
Squirrel Sievers...who I just so happened to run into at a ball park in Madison WI last summer, (and of course I remember watching him hit all those HRs and led the AL in HR while playing for Washington!..1957!)

However, with that said, the Big Hurt has the HoF numbers (now) and could be first ballot when he completes his career.....
OBTW: FE Thomas has numbers similar to HoFers
that you may recognize:
...Hank Greenberg
...Willie McCovey
...Duke Snider
...Johnny Mize
...Willie Stargell
....and of future HoF Jeff Bagwell.

Sure smells like somethings cooking...crow pie?

cheers
Bear

Frank will sign and finish with the Sox.

Hall of Fame first ballot.

That is as it should be for an all time top 15 hitter.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I believe that the Hall of Fame is not just measured by hitting. Frank Thomas has played less than 1000 games in the field and has only 3 seasons where he played more than 125 games "defensively." Can he hit? Don't need to prove that to me. In terms of being a complete player who contributed with the bat "and the glove," I will take Hodges.
Different time/different rules. Does Frank Thomas keep those numbers before the DH? To equate Thomas with McCovey does not work for me. McCovey played day in and day out with some of the worst knees ever...and he still performed with the bat and the glove. Not buying it guys. Bear, no reason to be a jerk about things with the "crow" comment. I happen to think you are incomplete in your view but I am not "crowing" about it.
To take the contrast one additional step. I watch JT Snow regularly and happen to think he is the best defensive 1B ever and maybe one baseball's very best defensive players regardless of position. He is unbelievable. Better than Hodges, IMO. Does that/should that get him into the Hall? I know it won't. If Snow is as dominant with the glove as Thomas was with the bat, why should they be measured/treated differently? I repeat, it is not the "hitters hall of fame."
I guess using the "Bear" approach, Palmeiro is a sure 1st ballot guy also since he has far better "offensive numbers" than Thomas or Bagwell. Again, I'm not buying that.
Personally, I believe Hodges belongs. I also believe Bagwell belongs right behind him and then I would vote for Frank Thomas.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Whoooo!!!!!!!!! Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless and until Gil Hodges gets into the Hall, I could never justify Bagwell or Thomas. While Thomas had a few very specactular years, and Bagwell has clealy achieved standards no one would expect, Hodges, to me, must be in the Hall, before they get a sniff.

Bill, I don't feel that either player's HOF requirements should be based on Gil Hodges. They should make the HOF based on what they did, not what another player did. Offense is the #1 requirement for the HOF, but the good gloves get in too. Ozzie was a weak hitter, but his glove got him in and the same goes for Rizzuto and Reese. Duane Kuiper has a higher BA than Ozzie and Pee Wee. As far as offensive numbers, Bagwell and Thomas will both get in and I think they belong.

Doug, I know they will both get in and I am a Bagwell fan. I am just rebelling at the DH in a way and remembering a childhood idol..along with Pee Wee Reese. Still try and read "Boys of Summer" at least once per year.
But I will not accept the comparison of McCovey/Frank Thomas. One had the benefit of the DH and one didn't and they both had injuries. Imagine Willie Mac's stats with the DH???
Kuip in the Hall??? Should I be on the bandwagon???

Bill, You are right about McCovey, as he played most of his career with brutal knees and still was a very good fielder and of course a great home run hitter too. If there had been a DH for him, he probably would have hit about 600 home runs instead of the 521 he did hit.

Thomas is just a hitter, and can't field worth a darn and when he throws it makes me laugh because it is pathetic. His bat will get him in the HOF, because he was the best, most productive hitter in baseball for ten years.

I compare Hodges to my guy, Matt Williams. They were both really good players who won gold gloves and hit with power, but their numbers on offense just fall a little short.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Maybe I am in the minority, but I believe that the Hall of Fame is not just measured by hitting. Can he hit?
Don't need to prove that to me.

Complete player.....I will take Hodges.

To equate Thomas with McCovey does not work for me. Not buying it guys.

Bear, no reason to be a jerk about things with the "crow" comment.

I happen to think you are incomplete in your view but I am not "crowing" about it.

JT Snow is...Better than Hodges, IMO.
I repeat, it is not the "hitters hall of fame."
I guess using the "Bear" approach, Palmeiro is a sure 1st ballot guy also since he has far better

"offensive numbers" than Thomas or Bagwell. Again, I'm not buying that.

--------------------------------

Not sure how far you want to take this debate........BUT should you be able to ......maybe you might have the time to listen and learn something.

Monitoring for the HoF is about many things, however it's the numbers that gets the player in, and the baseball suspensions and ineligeability, dependant on the seriousness of it, removes the player from being a candidate.

Yet, let's agree. You have no fricking clue what my opinion of Ralphy is until I tell you. One thing I do know is I'd bet, if a betting man, that it's different than yours. That being since his wife would drop his kids off at our neighbors house. So many who knew him and family were devastated for him from the summer events. And the black eye impact on baseball.

But that may be something, IMHO, that you would not understand.

As far as you calling me a jerk, may I remind you that in this ever-changing world we live in there is a great necessity of being a man of honor, integrity and quality. And Lord knows the number of times I messed up!

May I also remind you what this era
thinks about when just mentioning attorney's.
If the shoe fits!

As far as your consideration of using the "Bear" approach. Much of that credit could be understood from research into "the Jamison era".

And IMHO, many lawyers are unable to understand such things until a related case law leads the way for understanding, argument, and judgement.

OBTW: As it is the tradition, there has been zero tolerance by the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc and BBWAA for entry should a player be on baseball's ineligeable list.

Yet precedence is established, such that some HoF players who were suspended from baseball, were reinstated, with no HoF impact.

Thus may I remind you Ralphy is not on baseball's ineligeable list, and has HoF numbers.
And many know he has cleaned his Camden Yards locker out and left the building.
(Is Elvis in the house? lol)

JT Snow.....better than Gil Hodges? What?
Both have multi-year gold gloves (as had a dozen & 1/2, or so, other great 1b).

Isn't the only other categories Snow is/was a leader (or near the leader board) in:
- grounding into double plays?
- sacrifice flies?

Who readily comes to mind, when talking about multi-year gold glove 1b (with hitting numbers).....
......lil Tex (a gold glover and a leader this year in almost every offensive category),
......Helton (a multi year gold glover)
......Olerud
......Donnie Ball
......Hernandez
......Grace
......Boomer (although hit from right)
......Hodges (also RHH)
......Cooper
......Ralphy
......Garvey (RHH)
......Pepi
......Spence (did not have to go deep here, may he RIP)
......I haven't even mentioned the only multi-year gold glover HoF 1b !
......others

One of Bear's approaches to a HoF 1b include:
1. Putting up huge numbers
2. Be active as a player in MLB for a long time
3. Having a career with many MLB championship seasons
4. Be an eligible candidate.
5. Usually hit from the left side (optional..lol).

And since we are strolling down memory lane...who said (and who was he speaking about!):
"With my catching set, I put a first baseman's glove on our other rookie catcher, and told him to have some fun. Three days later, I looked up and, wow, I was looking at the best first baseman I'd seen since Dolf Camilli."

Now let's turn it up a notch....(as Emiril says)

Of the following five players with numbers....choose those with your (ie Bill ?) approach for HoFer type numbers!

These numbers reflect at least 16 seasons (with one exception).

-----------------------
Player A
..AB....R....H....2b....HR....RBI..Ave
6956 1327 2136 447 448 1465 .307

Player B
..AB....R....H....2b....HR....RBI..Ave
6263 1038 1736 270 435 1228 .277

Player C
..AB....R....H....2b....HR....RBI..Ave
7006 1090 1916 294 370 1271 .273

Player D
..AB....R....H....2b....HR....RBI..Ave
3783 518 1052 148 170 578 .278

Player E
..AB....R....H....2b....HR....RBI..Ave
6668 889 1775 270 339 1186 .266

-----------------------------

I look forward to the "discussion", that is if able....
And there is some indication otherwise.

Since it's perceived that you may have been perturbed...(and if I did not think, for one NY minute, that you were unable to handle it), may the sincerity of my apology be accepted!

OBTW: Do you like mustard or mayonnaise on bread with a bird sandwich? lol

Regards
Bear

With how FEW individuals get in on the 1st ballot these days, I'd doubt that either of them will get in on the 1st one...but I think both eventually will get in.

Bear, okay, I will acknowledge your wisdom, genius and knowledge of baseball. In fact, I thought bbscout and I reached an agreement. Thomas gets in because of his hitting...and nothing else and I can accept but not agree that is good for baseball and the Hall. Thomas is a HOF hitter not a HOF 1B.
Bear, not sure why you bring my profession and the "taunting" into this. I learned something long ago and it goes like this.
"Sometimes, when you want to make a point, you let the other person do the talking. You can find they will often say so much and say it in such a way that they prove the point you were trying to make, without your ever having to say another thing." I think that applies to your taunts pretty well.

If Hodges cant get in as a player - then get him in as a manager.

World Series Gold baby - '69 Amazin's!!!

We still love you Gil!

Lets Go Mets!

Inf Dad,

From the opinion of the majority of emails I recently received, many believe the insults were initiated by you. Yet at this point in time there is no reason to match wits with someone unarmed. To summarize: its inconsequential.

One last note:
Player A = Big Hurt 16 years of stats, and of course are overwhelmingly and beyond similar to Player B.

Player B = Big Macs' 16 years of stats.

Player C = Hodges's 16 years of stats.

Player D = an old friend, Jimmy Ray, and if Big Mac simply stopped hanging out with Jimmy Ray's and his vices, Big Mac may have hit .300 and had 600 HR.

Player E = Boog's

...QED....Enough said

quote:

Yet at this point in time there is no reason to match wits with someone unarmed.

Bear, not sure why you want to continue with this.
I have acknowledged Thomas will get into the HOF based on his hitting.