Balance Point

quote:

Originally posted by LTBB47:
So the kid asks for some drills to improve balance and you guys get into a debate over who knows more about balance points?

Falling towards the plate may appear to be a balance problem but I feel it is a symptom or result of some other problem that occurred earlier in the delivery. Therefore, working on balance won't solve the real underlying problem.

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The truth is the body does not stop and reach a dead stop balance point.

Then why practice balance in that manner?

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The balance point that this young man is referring to is the point at which the front leg/hip gets to it’s maximum height and takes an ever so slight (milliseconds) pause before going forward and getting released in the pitchers move forward.

There might be a slight pause with some pitchers but certainly not all.

quote:

The balance points are great teaching tools like someone said. All teams should incorporate balance drills into their throwing programs.

Some EASY balance drills:

1) Stand in front of a mirror- Assume the stretch position, set your hands like you are holding a runner on, lift you front leg to 90 deg. (it should be parallel to the ground), point your toe to the ground. Your ankle should be directly under your knee not curled under your rear.
HOLD THIS BALANCE POINT FOR 30 SEC.
Be sure you have good posture on the top half and keep your arms and hands still but ready.

If a pitcher gets his hips moving before the knee reaches its apex, he will never achieve the posture required by the balance point drill. Furthermore, not all pitchers lift their leg to 90 degrees, point their toe to the ground, or keep their foot under their knee. So why force pitchers to practice things they don't do?

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
If a pitcher gets his hips moving before the knee reaches its apex, he will never achieve the posture required by the balance point drill. Furthermore, not all pitchers lift their leg to 90 degrees, point their toe to the ground, or keep their foot under their knee. So why force pitchers to practice things they don't do?

Excellent point.

Here you go again, I will not get into a debate with you on this. Pitchers must practice this because it works on their BALANCE which is what this young man asked for. There are no absolutes in pitching, not everyone gets their body into the exact same spot as another. Once again these drills are for practicing balance and should be used as such.

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
HSBASEBALLWEB SPONSOR

quote:

Originally posted by LTBB47:

quote:

Anyone have any drills or anything on how to imporve balance. I always seem to be falling towards the plate. Im thinking that if i start wiht more weight on my back foot this could help with me staying back and keeping over my balance point. any suggestions would be helpful.

So the kid asks for some drills to improve balance and you guys get into a debate over who knows more about balance points?

Amen !

We all know each and every delivery is different for every pitcher. Improving their balance will only enable them to perform better doing whatever it is that they do. That was the original ??? If all the "no pause crowd" has a better way to develop balance, other than throwing endless pitches from a mound, I for one would be interested.

ltbb47

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Pitchers must practice this because it works on their BALANCE which is what this young man asked for.

They "must practice this"..... I strongly disagree.

yanklover

quote:

If all the "no pause crowd" has a better way to develop balance, other than throwing endless pitches from a mound, I for one would be interested.

I hope you find what your looking for....Im going to keep working from the mound though.

If you practice a balance point (like the picture above), you're brain is going to say "Okay, I need to stop at this position"
And guess what? That's what it'll do on the mound.

Which hinders velocity.

Let me ask you, if you're running, and you're going to jump from one building to the next, what's going to get you more momentum to make the jump? A pause, or a running jump?
What's going to help give you more momentum when you pitch (which increases velocity), continually moving forward while leading with the front hip, or pausing, then going forward?

The OP said he was falling towards the plate... that sounds like he was leading with his front shoulder (rushing) rather than leading with his front hip. Not necessarily a balance issue

Not interested in entering a debate, but sometimes can't help it

FWIW

I see nothing wrong with "practicing" balance.

For a few years we used a Karate expert to work with our team in the off season and believe it turned out very successful. Most of the things he had players work on (drills) were based on practicing balance and increasing flexibilty. Also things like using breathing techniques and utilizing the mid section in ways I didn't know existed.

I don't know much about martial arts, but belive our players benefitted greatly from this. I think a good pitching coach working with a good Karate instructor could have a very positive impact on most players, especially pitchers.

Oddly enough, one of the excercises was balancing on one foot with the other leg bent and in air and out of this stationary balanced position do other things including kicks and hand movements.

May or may not pertain to this subject, depending on how you look at it.

The problem would be getting into the pitcher's head that they have to come to some sort of pause, or stop, before going forward.

If they're falling forward (like the OP) they're (without video tape) probably rushing

If they're leaning off to the side, their posture is probably bad

And if they have a hard time walking because they have bad balance, then yeah, you'll probably want to work on balance


Usually (from what I've saw with working with 12-20 year olds) the "bad balance" is really bad posture. They don't have their chin/nose aligned with their bellybutton. Spinal alignment signals good posture. If you start out bad (bad posture), you're likely to end bad (which may look like you have bad balance)

XFactor,

Maybe we could call them "posture" drills then.

Isn't it possible to have good posture without being in an athletically balanced position?

I do agree with the pause stuff, but aren't their sucessful pitchers who do in fact pause?

I'm not debating with you. Do you have some drills or advice for this young man about something that is useful or do you just want to debate?

I think what I am teaching to these young men is working. I just got home from our game today, 6-0 shutout @ Maine West. Our staff has given up 1 run in the past 23 innings, our ERA is under 1 for the year. One thing that makes us good is that our pitchers all have good balance and posture in their deliveries so they can replicate good pitches over and over again.

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
HSBASEBALLWEB SPONSOR

quote:

Originally posted by LTBB47:
Here you go again, I will not get into a debate with you on this. Pitchers must practice this because it works on their BALANCE which is what this young man asked for. There are no absolutes in pitching, not everyone gets their body into the exact same spot as another. Once again these drills are for practicing balance and should be used as such.

Justin,

I thought we were simply having a good, healthy discussion. Not trying to "stir the pot".

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I see nothing wrong with "practicing" balance.

PG,

I don't think any of us would disagree with that statement. But I think there is a difference between practicing "balance" and practicing the "balance point".

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
We all know each and every delivery is different for every pitcher. Improving their balance will only enable them to perform better doing whatever it is that they do. That was the original ??? If all the "no pause crowd" has a better way to develop balance, other than throwing endless pitches from a mound, I for one would be interested.

quote:

Originally posted by LTBB47:
I'm not debating with you. Do you have some drills or advice for this young man about something that is useful or do you just want to debate?

The towel drill is actually a good dril for practicing posture and balance through the delivery. Missing the target to the side is a possible indication of posture and/or balance issues.

LTBB you are right. I have never seen such double talk. I guess some have bought the program hook line and sinker.

bobblehead

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I guess some have bought the program hook line and sinker.

I think there are some very knowledgeable people who post here and in the hitting forum, too. I think it’s important that we respect one another no matter what our beliefs might be.

I think there are people on here who spend much more time studying and thinking about this stuff than I do. Therefore I think they are more advanced.

Could say something stupid like… I’ve forgotten more than others know, but the truth is I’ve forgotten more than I know! And things keep changing! That is a good thing in my mind!

Some of you are great students of the game and that should earn respect IMO. Agree or disagree this is good stuff!

It wouldn’t be baseball if we agreed on everything. It would be boring and nobody would learn anything.

I know that is not about this topic.

No, it's not about this topic... but, you usually have good things to say.

It'd be boring if everyone agreed. Then who would I get to argue with? It just wouldn't be as fun.. heh

Someone brought this video up in the Dick Mills forum, I thought I'd share it with you

Tim Lincecum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DeC8PSgm6M

Very nice speed of movement. 170 pounds, moving explosively, hardly any hesitation. Sure a few things could be altered, regardless.. it's still a nice video, I think it's interesting to watch

quote:

Originally posted by XFactor:

Very nice speed of movement. 170 pounds, moving explosively, hardly any hesitation. Sure a few things could be altered, regardless.. it's still a nice video, I think it's interesting to watch

Great thing is if you let someone type long enough...

BTW I agree a fluid pitching motion that accelerates from start to finish is most desireable. The whole "running start" thing is where I disagree, it isn't cricket.

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yankeelv The whole "running start" thing is where I disagree, it isn't cricket.

Yea, its not cricket, crickets much more well established, by about 200years....really quite an ignorant comment.

Soooo, running starts are bad in baseball. You can teach whatever you want to your team, but having them stop halfway through their delivery and starting again is not doing them any favors. If your right, which your not, why dont outfielders take the time to balance up halfway through thier throw in to the infield, how about hitters stoping thier swing halfway through thier stroke so they to can achieve a balance point... well? But pitchers have to do this ?....NO running start!!!! you might learn something from cricket

Selective reading helps no one. Do you understand the term "fluid"? Never did advocate a pause, didn't condemn it either, and BTW we are talking pitching specific here. That rule thing about staying in contact with the rubber precludes a real running start. I suspect the only thing lost may be "several hundred of your dollars"

This is why I have found this debate so rediculous. People are taalking about stopping and that is not what is being said. How do you spell BALK. The only stop is at set prior to balance point and all the other points like release point.

Dick Mills > I never would have guessed. Another regurgitator trying to fool people with his secrets to pitchinh. Take lots of hook line and sinkers.

No, I'm not just typing what I've found in the book. I actually understand what is being said.

I understand the science where more speed of movement, more momentum, and starting the ball further away from the plate to generate more momentum, all tie into more velocity.

Don't make such ignorant comments.

If one was to (in the wind up position) take a big step back, (right leg for a lefty, left leg for a righty), push off from that while pivoting (though have the lead leg come off the ground after the support foot is parallel to the rubber), and (while still moving forward, leading with your front hip) move your leg up to waist height (as anything too high slows down momentum), then lead explosively with their front hip.. (good mechanics considered) your velocity will take a pretty good job.

Do you understand why? Because you're generating more momentum, you're increasing your speed of movement, which is generating more elastic energy, which equates to more velocity.

And my gosh, when I was throwing my bullpen today, it was a thing of beauty. Tears flowed, it was that beautiful. Thank God for no hesitation


Edited: And this isn't a secret.. you can study, you can pick up a certain book, you can read scientifically correct literature, etc...
I mean I hope you don't believe me. I hope you go and study up and come back smarter and more knowledgeable than ever

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
[QUOTE]yankeelv The whole "running start" thing is where I disagree, it isn't cricket.

Yea, its not cricket, crickets much more well established, by about 200years....really quite an ignorant comment.[QUOTE]

Isn't cricket the game where the pitcher (or whatever he is named in that game) gets a running start to deliver the ball? If I have the wrong game I suppose it would have been an ignorant comment, otherwise, don't use words you don't understand.

yankeelvs

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Isn't cricket the game where the pitcher (or whatever he is named in that game) gets a running start to deliver the ball? If I have the wrong game I suppose it would have been an ignorant comment, otherwise, don't use words you don't understand

The "whatever he is named" is a bowler. You have the right game, but your ignorace was to assume a game 200 years baseballs superior had throwing wrong by using a running start (you can throw in not knowing the name of the position you were comparing as well), not because of guessing the wrong sport. Keep up the fight against the running start and be sure to keep me posted on the development of your players. Good post!

This thread is dead, have fun boys.......
DPHSbasbllplyer you have a PM

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

This thread is dead, have fun boys.......

Finally some common ground...

X, d, et al,
Just for giggles if you can find 10 minutes or so to spare, have a contest for your pitchers. Have them see who can balance the longest on one leg. To prevent this position from being "programmed into their brains causing a pause" have the RHP use their left leg as the support leg, right leg for LHP. Seen it done many times, the kids who can throw strikes will be apparent.

I never said they couldn't throw strikes

I just said they could be a lot better without it

I got rid of my balance point this offseason and out of 60 pitches yesterday (first time throwing since October) I only missed twice.

Gee gasp


I believe we had a nice little debate though. Hopefully parents/coaches/athletes will walk away having learned something more

quote:

Anyone have any drills or anything on how to imporve balance. I always seem to be falling towards the plate. Im thinking that if i start wiht more weight on my back foot this could help with me staying back and keeping over my balance point.

Falling toward the plate is not a problem. Trying to stay over the rubber is a problem. Pro pitchers exhibit a variety of tempos as they go toward their target. Most all do not attempt to keep their weight over the rubber. The questionable pitchers are the Japanese who use huge counter rotations, or who simply have a very pronounced slowdown phase during knee lift. To better answer your question, you could post a side view video.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by XFactor:
I believe we had a nice little debate though. Hopefully parents/coaches/athletes will walk away having learned something more

Unfortunately, the people who are looking to increase their knowledge about this and other subjects most likely become more confused.

All we have here are some guys who 'already know' disagreeing with others who 'already know'.

For those of you who really want to learn, find somebody you trust, with proven positive results, and learn from them.

quote:

I got rid of my balance point this offseason and out of 60 pitches yesterday (first time throwing since October) I only missed twice.

I would like to know how you do that.

Some of the statements here show a lack of understamding pehaps induced by some statements by guys like Mills to separate himself from the masses by his absurd logic. Fools many as I can see by statements made by his followers. Just don't drink any of his blue coolaide or join his commune in South America.

[And my gosh, when I was throwing my bullpen today, it was a thing of beauty. Tears flowed, it was that beautiful. Thank God for no hesitation


What are you on?

quote:

How did I get rid of my balance point?

As I rose my leg up I began moving to the side explosively with my front hip, thus (instead of raising my leg up, then moving forward) I got rid of said balance point.

Edited by Cap'n to rid the post of condescending, disrespectful and otherwise self-indulgent remarks.