Balk clarification

8.01 (b) tells us that from the set position the pitcher can:

1. Legally disengage
2. Step and throw to a base.
3. Pitch

You are addressing item 2. The issue is that this can be difficult for a RHP without violating 8.05 (a) which prohibits him from making a motion associated with his delivery and failing to pitch. It is indeed in the eyes of the umpire.

Pro school teaches that if the knee comes straight up before the step...balk. A RHP stepping and throwing ot first should take a "glide step", that is lifting his foot up just enough to clear the ground and swing leftward stepping towards first, gaining distance and direction. Any lift of the knee will put him jeopardy of balking.

quote:

Pitcher in mid leg lift steps over rubber to his right and throws it to 2B. They claim it is legal because he can throw to any base to make a play?

No he can make this move for a pick-off attempt. With no runner on 2nd there can be no pick off.

Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
With no runner on 2nd there can be no pick off.

R1 was stealing. It is not a balk if F1 throws (legally) to 2nd.

Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play.

This say's no.

So on Dash's field, cool (if the runner is going).

On my field balk.

This is why Lefties do not break the plane with R1, cause if they do, guess what they gotta deliver the pitch no matter what R1 does, I call it the same for a righty.

Oops. I failed to notice we were talking about a move to second.

I don't see a mention of the pitcher breaking the back plane of the rubber in the OP, so, in OBR F1 can throw to an empty base to make a play. In FED F1 can throw to an empty base to make a play or drive back a runner.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play.

This say's no.

So on Dash's field, cool (if the runner is going).

On my field balk.

This is why Lefties do not break the plane with R1, cause if they do, guess what they gotta deliver the pitch no matter what R1 does, I call it the same for a righty.

So R1 stealing, F1 turns in one motion, steps & throws to 2nd (obviously breaking the back plane of the rubber with his free foot) and retires the runner. You balk it, and leave the runner at 2nd.

Out comes the coach. He wants to know why you called a balk. What do you tell him?

quote:

They claim it is legal because he can throw to any base to make a play? If it were so they could fake that everytime, just to see if runner was going.

OP I didn't have the runner going nor a "move" to drive a runner back, rather an F1 starting his motion to pitch and failing to follow the restrictions of 8.05

Runner goes and F1 sees him and steps through in a move to 2B, I'm okay with that.
F1 starts his motion to pitch, breaks the plane, then decides to continue through, I got a balk.

There is a noticable difference between the motion to pitch, and a step through move to "make a play" in my minds eye. It better be very clear to me what F1 is doing.

Consider LH F1, everybody in the world knows if he breaks the plane he's gotta go home, let him change his mind after, uh uh, there'd never be another stolen base again, no need for righties ever again (unless you got R3, then the squeeze play would be extinct.).. Hold em to the same standard.

Coach, he broke the plane in his motion to pitch and failed to go home, balk.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Runner goes and F1 sees him and steps through in a move to 2B, I'm okay with that.
F1 starts his motion to pitch, breaks the plane, then decides to continue through, I got a balk.

And you would be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
There is a noticable difference between the motion to pitch, and a step through move to "make a play" in my minds eye. It better be very clear to me what F1 is doing.

The rule does not require a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Coach, he broke the plane in his motion to pitch and failed to go home, balk.

Thank you, for writing the protest for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Runner goes and F1 sees him and steps through in a move to 2B, I'm okay with that.
F1 starts his motion to pitch, breaks the plane, then decides to continue through, I got a balk.

And you would be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
There is a noticable difference between the motion to pitch, and a step through move to "make a play" in my minds eye. It better be very clear to me what F1 is doing.

The rule does not require a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Coach, he broke the plane in his motion to pitch and failed to go home, balk.

Thank you, for writing the protest for him.

Oh, sorry, thanks for straighting me out..

Nah.

Convince me that 8.05 was overlooked in the latest edition/s of the rules.. simply left in the rule book as a reminder of days gone by.

As taught when I went to proschool and as currently practiced by professonal umpires, Matt is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Runner goes and F1 sees him and steps through in a move to 2B, I'm okay with that.
F1 starts his motion to pitch, breaks the plane, then decides to continue through, I got a balk.

And you would be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
There is a noticable difference between the motion to pitch, and a step through move to "make a play" in my minds eye. It better be very clear to me what F1 is doing.

The rule does not require a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Coach, he broke the plane in his motion to pitch and failed to go home, balk.

Thank you, for writing the protest for him.

Oh sorry, thanks for setting me straight...
Nah..
Convince me that 8.05 was simply, somehow, forgotten to be removed.

On MM/DD/yyyy:
at zy complex with R1, x outs, in the t/b of x inning. F1 came set, began his motion to pitch, broke the back edge with the free foot and failed to deliver the pitch as required by 8.05.
I allowed the play to continue until F4 gloved the throw from F1, time, that's a balk, R1 to 2nd.

HC approached and stated, sir, 8.05 does not apply when a runner is stealing, I'm forced to protest your ruling.

It's noted and official let's play, get the TD whatever.

As a judgement I see a very distinct differnce between; the pitching motion and a step off/PO move.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
With no runner on 2nd there can be no pick off.

There can if, as in the OP, R1 is advancing toward and attempting to acquire 2nd base (less stringent in FED).

quote:

As a judgement I see a very distinct differnce between; the pitching motion and a step off/PO move.

There is no need for such distinction. The rules are clear on what commits F1 to the plate, and what constitutes an illegal pickoff move. F1 did neither.

When his free foot went behind the rubber, F1 was committed to EITHER pitch to the batter or throw to 2nd to make a play. He threw to 2nd and made a play. Legal

F1 threw to an unoccupied base, but the throw was made to retire R1, who was advancing to, and attempting to acquire, 2nd base. Legal.

The pick move was one continuous motion and F1 stepped to 2nd ahead of the throw. Legal.

No balk.

Clear as mud! So can you see why such a basic and simple mater can be so misunderstood. We really need to tighten this ruling up.

I just call it basic logic. When was the last time you saw an MLB pitcher lift his leg up and spin towards second (unocupied) to get the stealing runner? Never. I know it is not clearly defined, but it is just sort of known. Would help to get it defined more concisely. We have always been taught to steal when Righty picks up front heel.

quote:

Originally posted by Landon:
Clear as mud! So can you see why such a basic and simple mater can be so misunderstood. We really need to tighten this ruling up.

It's pretty to clear to me. F1 breaks back edge of rubber he has to do one of two things. What's the mystery?

quote:

When was the last time you saw an MLB pitcher lift his leg up and spin towards second (unocupied) to get the stealing runner? Never.

Twice so far this season.

quote:

We have always been taught to steal when Righty picks up front heel.

A coach's lack of rules knowledge is not cause to change the rules.

Jimmy,
So if a Lefty picks up his front foot, pauses at leg lift, breaks the plane of the rubber, he still can do 2 things? Home or throw to 2nd base if the runner is attempting to steal?

Your argument makes it seem like it is different for a righty or a lefty.

Nice comment about not knowing the rules. I appearantly am not the only one? The balk was called on the other team, and their coach argued it for 30 minutes. If it was so clearly stated in the rules, there wouldn't be such disagreement, as evidenced by the different interpretations above??

I am sorry that I even asked.

quote:

Originally posted by Landon:
Jimmy,
So if a Lefty picks up his front foot, pauses at leg lift, breaks the plane of the rubber, he still can do 2 things? Home or throw to 2nd base if the runner is attempting to steal?

Never said that. The pause changes things. I don't recall that it the original post.

quote:

Your argument makes it seem like it is different for a righty or a lefty.

Where did I even imply such a thing? Despite what many coaches seem to think, a RHP anb a LHP are covered by the exact same rules and can do the same things.

quote:

Nice comment about not knowing the rules. I appearantly am not the only one? The balk was called on the other team, and their coach argued it for 30 minutes. If it was so clearly stated in the rules, there wouldn't be such disagreement, as evidenced by the different interpretations above??

My comment was in reference to the statement regarding what was taught by the coaches, not to you.

Many things are stated clearly in the rules and are are still argued by coaches and misinterpreted. Again, the failings of individuals to understand is not grounds for a rules change, or the book would be re-written daily.

quote:

I am sorry that I even asked.

You shouldn't be. Nothing was directed personally at you.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Landon:
Jimmy,
So if a Lefty picks up his front foot, pauses at leg lift, breaks the plane of the rubber, he still can do 2 things? Home or throw to 2nd base if the runner is attempting to steal?

Never said that. The pause changes things. I don't recall that it the original post.

quote:

Your argument makes it seem like it is different for a righty or a lefty.

Where did I even imply such a thing? Despite what many coaches seem to think, a RHP anb a LHP are covered by the exact same rules and can do the same things.

quote:

Nice comment about not knowing the rules. I appearantly am not the only one? The balk was called on the other team, and their coach argued it for 30 minutes. If it was so clearly stated in the rules, there wouldn't be such disagreement, as evidenced by the different interpretations above??

My comment was in reference to the statement regarding what was taught by the coaches, not to you.

Many things are stated clearly in the rules and are are still argued by coaches and misinterpreted. Again, the failings of individuals to understand is not grounds for a rules change, or the book would be re-written daily.

quote:

I am sorry that I even asked.

You shouldn't be. Nothing was directed personally at you.

But Jimmy, this is being argued by umpires

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Glove:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Landon:
Jimmy,
So if a Lefty picks up his front foot, pauses at leg lift, breaks the plane of the rubber, he still can do 2 things? Home or throw to 2nd base if the runner is attempting to steal?

Never said that. The pause changes things. I don't recall that it the original post.

quote:

Your argument makes it seem like it is different for a righty or a lefty.

Where did I even imply such a thing? Despite what many coaches seem to think, a RHP anb a LHP are covered by the exact same rules and can do the same things.

quote:

Nice comment about not knowing the rules. I appearantly am not the only one? The balk was called on the other team, and their coach argued it for 30 minutes. If it was so clearly stated in the rules, there wouldn't be such disagreement, as evidenced by the different interpretations above??

My comment was in reference to the statement regarding what was taught by the coaches, not to you.

Many things are stated clearly in the rules and are are still argued by coaches and misinterpreted. Again, the failings of individuals to understand is not grounds for a rules change, or the book would be re-written daily.

quote:

I am sorry that I even asked.

You shouldn't be. Nothing was directed personally at you.

But Jimmy, this is being argued by umpires

And?

I don't believe it is being argued by professional umpires.

We need to remember that the OBR is written and owned by MLB and is intended for use by grown men officiated by professional umpires. They don't really give a squat if some amateur coaches and umpires are having a disagreement over one rule or another.

OK guys, It's fairly simple and I believe has been explain quite well here. The balk rules apply equally to both a RHP and LHP. What they do and what it looks like is different for obvious reasons but they follow the same restrictions.
8.01 and 8.05 are quite clear. If a runner is breaking the pitcher may throw to the advance base to put him out. If he is stealing, even if he stops and returns, then that is legal. if he isn't stealing then it is a balk. A RHP may step to first from the rubber without disengaging but he must throw.

So if you have a good base-stealer on you would just toss a few to second and claim he was stealing (his secondary lead) but then he went back...

Come on guys; I need a video of this in a pro game where
a) RH pitcher picks up front foot, then throws to 2nd to try to get guy stealing from first
b) no balk is called
c) there is not a total beserk-o outburst from the entire coaching staff

You can't find it because it hasn't happened yet.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
So if you have a good base-stealer on you would just toss a few to second and claim he was stealing (his secondary lead) but then he went back...

No, because there has to be a steal attempt.

So Ricky Henderson stole 1406 bases but no body ever tried to get him this way? Because you can't, it's a balk.

As soon as the RH pitcher picks up his free foot the runner goes, everyone yells 'going' or 'runner'... if it was legal the pitcher could easily throw the ball to 2nd and Ricky or anyone else would be out by a mile.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
So Ricky Henderson stole 1406 bases but no body ever tried to get him this way? Because you can't, it's a balk.

As soon as the RH pitcher picks up his free foot the runner goes, everyone yells 'going' or 'runner'... if it was legal the pitcher could easily throw the ball to 2nd and Ricky or anyone else would be out by a mile.

No coach. The rule explicity allows the move. Just becuase it is not common, doesn't make it illegal. Read the rule.

Picking up the front foot, in and of itself does not commit the pitcher to home. It all depends on how the foot is picked up and where it goes.

By rule, all pitchers, from either the windup or the set, (in OBR) may step off, or step and throw to a base, or legally disengage.

Again, the frequency means little. The vast majority of pro RHP will not throw to first without stepping off or performing a jump turn. That doesn't mean it's required.

From a former Mariners pitching coach: "The issue is it's difficult to execute the move correctly. It is safer not to try. That's why you don't see it very often."

Hpwever, it CAN be done legally.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
So Ricky Henderson stole 1406 bases but no body ever tried to get him this way? Because you can't, it's a balk.

As soon as the RH pitcher picks up his free foot the runner goes, everyone yells 'going' or 'runner'... if it was legal the pitcher could easily throw the ball to 2nd and Ricky or anyone else would be out by a mile.

Here is a link to the rule.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloa...s/08_the_pitcher.pdf

8.05 sets forth what constitutes a balk. Ricky Henderson is not mentioned in the rule. Which part of 8.05 would apply?

Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play.

That part right there; "pick off play"

not; you can swing your free foot up in the air and then decide to throw to 2nd if a guy is stealing...

I mean really guys.... this is ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play.

That part right there; "pick off play"

not; you can swing your free foot up in the air and then decide to throw to 2nd if a guy is stealing...

I mean really guys.... this is ridiculous.

Yep. The fact that you think you know the rule is ridiculous.

So, where in OBR is "pick-off play" defined?

The explanation of the rule by a former minor league umpire, after the opposing coach did go a bit nuts, was that the throw to second cannot be done to preempt the steal (Ricky Henderson example) only in response to the steal attempt - 8.05(d) says except for the purpose of making a play.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
Yep. The fact that you think you know the rule is ridiculous.

So, where in OBR is "pick-off play" defined?

Let's be civil here, coaches, players, parents and umpires alike come to this forum to learn "most the time", not banter and belittle. There are other sites which seem to cater to the latter, I've deleted those from my favorites and find this forum refreshing and informative.

Matt, your response is ridiculous. Please offer up some "explanations" with your interpretations.
In your own words, what rule exempts the RH from doing exactly what Coach is asking in the Ricky example? Cause believe you me were it legal it would be done. Not sure if you've ever held a runner, but believe you me, every pitcher/pitching coach in the world tries to find a better BR trap, and for "some reason" this one hasn't become a norm.

As an umpire you use judgement (I thought), RH from set, is allowed three things, pitch, PO or step off.
For this topic we will disregard the step off.

As an umpire we must judge what F1 is doing. With R1 and RH F1 from set; R1 with a good lead, F1 lifts the free foot, he has commenced his motion to pitch, per 8.01. He now see's, hears, or is told the runners going, breaks the plane (cause he's now decided to throw to second) and does not complete his delivery to HP, balk his dumb ... and do all of baseball a favor, in the spirit of the rules..per 8.05.
The fact the OP was balked is relieving. The fact the other coach argued for 30 minutes is typical of a coach who "thought he'd figured out a loop hole", probably got away with it on a couple umpires watches, most likely north and east of the continental divide and got called on it justifiable so.

Jimmy;
[Quote] Originally posted by Jimmy 03:
"No coach. The rule explicity allows the move. Just becuase it is not common, doesn't make it illegal. Read the rule.

JJK: The rule allows this move when; the runner breaks too early, that's "driving back" or "making a play".


Picking up the front foot, in and of itself does not commit the pitcher to home. It all depends on how the foot is picked up and where it goes.

JJK: perhaps not but, stick to a RH F1 with R1 and please elaborate, justify this statement; please go slow and precise, cause I've got 40 plus years of learning to erase..

By rule, all pitchers, from either the windup or the set, (in OBR) may step off, or step and throw to a base, or legally disengage.

JJK: incorrect, he can also deliver a pitch. Read the rules. See it's easy to banter and twist the intent of your statement with a negative tone.

Again, the frequency means little. The vast majority of pro RHP will not throw to first without stepping off or performing a jump turn. That doesn't mean it's required.

JJK: Please elaborate, again slow and precise. Disregard the step off, and tell me what other legal move a RH can make to 1B, jump turn and jab step are the only two I'm aware of.

From a former Mariners pitching coach: "The issue is it's difficult to execute the move correctly. It is safer not to try. That's why you don't see it very often."

JJK: Not true, the M's have never had a pitching coach, oh, wait sorry, that's hitting coach my bad. So all of a sudden you're accepting a coaches advise on rule interpretations, that is world changing? Of course he demonstrated this "move" for all to learn. No, cause there ain't one.

Hpwever, it CAN be done legally."

JJK: This your statement or coaches? Hopefully yours, so you can elaborate and take us through this.

Michael S. and Jimmy03; I've read your guys stuff on here for a long time and would love to have you working my games... but on this one you are just off or we aren't talking about the same thing.

Not meaning to sound sarcastic, but guys you simply could not steal 2nd off a righty if this move was allowed; you can lift and then 'pick off' which means there is all ready a runner occupying that base (usually referred to as an inside move)...

have a good day gentlemen

quote:

By rule, all pitchers, from either the windup or the set, (in OBR) may step off, or step and throw to a base, or legally disengage.

JJK: incorrect, he can also deliver a pitch. Read the rules. See it's easy to banter and twist the intent of your statement with a negative tone.

I'm sorry, I repeated "stepping off" and omitted "deliver a pitch." I will proof read better in the future.

Bottom line, I will take the training I received at proschoool, the rule book, interpretations by MLB umpires and my own MiLB experience over an opinion based on being taught that one can safely steal as soon as F1 lifts his foot. A smart pitcher loves that folklore.

Another reason you don't see this move: A stealing R1 can easily see F1 turning to 2nd -- all he has to do is stop and head back to 1st. NOW it's a balk.

8.05 (d)
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

To me this would allow for the throw to second, but it also seems in conflict with 8.05(a), unless a "pick-off play" and "making a play" would be considered the same. I too had always thought that it was illegal for a pitcher to throw to an unoccupied base without legally disengaging, but once I began umping and getting into the rules I now know better. I've never seen it done, but would love to witness it on the major league level.

A play is defined as, among other things, a throw in an attempt to retire a runner.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
Let's be civil here, coaches, players, parents and umpires alike come to this forum to learn "most the time", not banter and belittle. There are other sites which seem to cater to the latter, I've deleted those from my favorites and find this forum refreshing and informative.

There was nothing uncivil in what I said.

quote:

Matt, your response is ridiculous. Please offer up some "explanations" with your interpretations.
In your own words, what rule exempts the RH from doing exactly what Coach is asking in the Ricky example? Cause believe you me were it legal it would be done. Not sure if you've ever held a runner, but believe you me, every pitcher/pitching coach in the world tries to find a better BR trap, and for "some reason" this one hasn't become a norm.

My response is not ridiculous. We have beaten this explanation to death. I (and others) have already addressed what you asked at length.

Seriously! Trojan Skipper is right. I would say this is the most singularly confused rule in baseball. It is not clearly stated in the rules, despite what Jimmy03 and Matt13 seem to say.

And if it is the rule than someone better explain it to all of the high school, college and professional coaches that are teaching baserunners.

I started this, and am sorry that there is so much confusion. It is funny that so many people are so adamantly that they are correct, but totally on opposite sides of the rule. And yet I keep getting the same response that is is "Clearly in the rules". I am sorry but it is not clear to me.

I like the Rickey Henderson analogy becuase for any that watched him play, they always would ISO split screen the pitcher and him. You would always see him break instantly when the front foot started to rise. It is simply amazing that all of those MLB pithcers never knew this "clearly defined rule" and simply spun towards second and had the ball waiting there for Ricky! I mean seriously!! Well said Trojan Skipper.

As an instructor of umpires and rules interpreter I assure this is most certainly allowed. Also, as noted, it isn't common because the runner can easily stop and return turning it into a balk. In Fed it is a lesser definition, it is to pick an advancing runner or to drive a runner back. This makes it a much more effective move in HS but as well known many coaches go on their experience and don't actually read the rules for their level.
Let me ask this question, a R2, pitcher lifts his foot and the runner takes off for third. Is the pitcher allowed to throw ahead of him to pick him at third? If you say yes, which is the correct answer, why is R1 any different?
8.01 allows the pitcher to pick from the wind-up but it is rarely done because it is hard to do correctly and many youth umpires aren't aware it is legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
As an instructor of umpires and rules interpreter I assure this is most certainly allowed. Also, as noted, it isn't common because the runner can easily stop and return turning it into a balk. In Fed it is a lesser definition, it is to pick an advancing runner or to drive a runner back. This makes it a much more effective move in HS but as well known many coaches go on their experience and don't actually read the rules for their level.
Let me ask this question, a R2, pitcher lifts his foot and the runner takes off for third. Is the pitcher allowed to throw ahead of him to pick him at third? If you say yes, which is the correct answer, why is R1 any different?
8.01 allows the pitcher to pick from the wind-up but it is rarely done because it is hard to do correctly and many youth umpires aren't aware it is legal.

Exactly Mr. Taylor. "Legal" neither means easy nor advisable. Mistakes are made with this move by both the player and umpire. As the pitching coach advises, many pros do not consider the percentages of success worth the chances of bad execution or a bad call.

Jimmy03 and Michael Taylor,
So in your example for a RHP throwing ahead of the advancing runner to third. You are saying if the runner stops it is a balk? Because he is throwing to an unoccupied base?

If that sounds correct, that seems like a pretty tough judgement call to decide if the runner stopped before the pitcher threw the ball to third?

So good umpires like y'all are able to watch the runners intentions and the pitcher to see if his weight is headed towards home plate in these situations, right?

I might even go for the 2nd to 3rd example. But to 2nd has to be a direct step, not a lift, pause, spin and turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Landon:
Jimmy03 and Michael Taylor,
So

I might even go for the 2nd to 3rd example. But to 2nd has to be a direct step, not a lift, pause, spin and turn.

No one, that I can recall, has said that a pause, after the set, that is, would be allowed.