Runner at 3B. 3Bman is in foul territory trying to sneak up on runner at 3B as the pitcher comes set and pitches.
I thought all fielders had to be in fair play. What is the ruling on this?
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I am assuming he had both feet in foul territory at the time of the pitch.....If so then its a balk.
NFHS Rule 1-1-4 Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory at the time of the pitch. A fielder is considered to be in fair territory if he has one foot in fair territory. Penalty -w/runners on Balk.
Only exception here is that a fielder may go into foul ground to take a pick off throw from a pitcher on the pitchers plate.
Reality of this situation is that in the 2 man Umpire system with a runner(s) on ....the field umpire has responsibilities (pitcher/pitch) that could lead to this being missed....
NFHS Rule 1-1-4 Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory at the time of the pitch. A fielder is considered to be in fair territory if he has one foot in fair territory. Penalty -w/runners on Balk.
Only exception here is that a fielder may go into foul ground to take a pick off throw from a pitcher on the pitchers plate.
Reality of this situation is that in the 2 man Umpire system with a runner(s) on ....the field umpire has responsibilities (pitcher/pitch) that could lead to this being missed....
NFHS (Fed) Rule 1-1-4: ...At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.
Penalty: Illegal pitch with no runner or balk with runner(s) on.
The key here is "time of the pitch." Your thread indicated that the pitcher came to a set and pitched. Therefore a balk should be called if the third baseman didn't have at least one foot in fair ground at the time the pitcher committed himself to deliver the pitch.
Up until that time the fact that the 3rd baseman was in foul ground was legal. The pitcher could have legally stepped off the rubber and either feinted or thrown to 3b or could have stepped directly toward 3b and thrown from the set position and his actions would have been legal even if the 3rd baseman was still in foul ground.
Penalty: Illegal pitch with no runner or balk with runner(s) on.
The key here is "time of the pitch." Your thread indicated that the pitcher came to a set and pitched. Therefore a balk should be called if the third baseman didn't have at least one foot in fair ground at the time the pitcher committed himself to deliver the pitch.
Up until that time the fact that the 3rd baseman was in foul ground was legal. The pitcher could have legally stepped off the rubber and either feinted or thrown to 3b or could have stepped directly toward 3b and thrown from the set position and his actions would have been legal even if the 3rd baseman was still in foul ground.
Sorry piaa, I didn't see your post as I was typing. Also, I agree that in a two ump system it's not likely that either ump would see the infraction since both umps would have their eyes on the pitcher as he was going to the set position and delivering the pitch.
quote:Originally posted by piaa_ump:
I am assuming he had both feet in foul territory at the time of the pitch.....If so then its a balk.
NFHS Rule 1-1-4 Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory at the time of the pitch. A fielder is considered to be in fair territory if he has one foot in fair territory. Penalty -w/runners on Balk.
Only exception here is that a fielder may go into foul ground to take a pick off throw from a pitcher on the pitchers plate.
Reality of this situation is that in the 2 man Umpire system with a runner(s) on ....the field umpire has responsibilities (pitcher/pitch) that could lead to this being missed....
PIAA,
Thanks. I remembered that to be a balk but could not recall the ruling. We lost a 1 run game and I asked the ump to watch for this, as the fielder had done it in prior innings. The ump, however, had no clue about this rule and warned me that he would toss me if I questioned him again (which was all done privately with no one else the wiser).
Redbird.......Sorry to hear that, I know that in a 2 umpire system it can be difficult for an umpire to see that infraction, but that does not warrant the comment made to you by the umpire. If he was not aware of the rule, he should have checked with his partner in between innings....I appreciate the way you handled it, private conversations about a rules infraction should never be considered out of bounds, I feel that a coach should be allowed ask a question regarding a rule.
Pilsner:.........Not a problem!...My goal all along for remaining here on the HSBBW was to have real world umpires that can be called on to give rulings and insight to the game as it is viewed from the Blue side....Im glad we agreed on the ruling!!.......
Pilsner:.........Not a problem!...My goal all along for remaining here on the HSBBW was to have real world umpires that can be called on to give rulings and insight to the game as it is viewed from the Blue side....Im glad we agreed on the ruling!!.......
quote:Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Redbird.......Sorry to hear that, I know that in a 2 umpire system it can be difficult for an umpire to see that infraction, but that does not warrant the comment made to you by the umpire. If he was not aware of the rule, he should have checked with his partner in between innings....I appreciate the way you handled it, private conversations about a rules infraction should never be considered out of bounds, I feel that a coach should be allowed ask a question regarding a rule.
Pilsner:.........Not a problem!...My goal all along for remaining here on the HSBBW was to have real world umpires that can be called on to give rulings and insight to the game as it is viewed from the Blue side....Im glad we agreed on the ruling!!.......
PIAA,
He saw it but did not know the ruling. He admitted that the fielder had both feet in foul territory prior to the pitch and upon delivery of the pitch. Oh well, I was able to teach our kids a new rule and they were able to see how we as coaches handled it.
We should have done a better job in executing during the game to keep in from being a 1 run loss.
First of all I learned something new as an umpire.
One thing about calling balks at age groups below JV-high school, is did the pitcher gain an advantage if not I would not call it unless it was blatantly obvious, (i.e. not coming set.)
Yes technically that was a balk, and yes that could have tied the game, but was any advantage gained by the actions of the 3rd baseman?
Did the pitcher ever throw over to 3rd base? Was the 3rd baseman even aware of what he was doing? Do you think he was coached to do that?
For future reference, if I do one of your games, I would acknowledge that is technically a balk, and I would even say something to the opposing manager, but at your age group, I would not call the balk.
As far as the actions of the umpire, that was wrong.
One thing about calling balks at age groups below JV-high school, is did the pitcher gain an advantage if not I would not call it unless it was blatantly obvious, (i.e. not coming set.)
Yes technically that was a balk, and yes that could have tied the game, but was any advantage gained by the actions of the 3rd baseman?
Did the pitcher ever throw over to 3rd base? Was the 3rd baseman even aware of what he was doing? Do you think he was coached to do that?
For future reference, if I do one of your games, I would acknowledge that is technically a balk, and I would even say something to the opposing manager, but at your age group, I would not call the balk.
As far as the actions of the umpire, that was wrong.
I have a hard time believing this pickoff would actually work. any good 3rd base coach would never allow that to happen....
Conversation in the dugout:
Coach: Hey Jimmy, what were you doing down there at third base?
Jimmy: Well, you know coach, I was thinking that if I moved over behind the runner, like, in foul ground, that he might not see me and we could pick him off.
Coach: Pretty clever Jimmy. But did you notice that our pitcher didn't throw to you but pitched to the batter?
Jimmy: Yeah coach, I saw that.
Coach: Did you know Jimmy that if any of our players, except the catcher, are on foul ground when our pitcher delivers a pitch that it's a balk?
Jimmy: Didn't know that coach. How come the Ump didn't call a balk?
Coach: Well, Jimmy, there's only two Umps out there and sometimes situations don't let them see eveything that happens.
Jimmy: Wow coach! I guess we got lucky there huh?
Coach: Almost lucky Jimmy.
Jimmy: What do you mean "almost" lucky coach?
Coach: Well, Jimmy, did you also notice that the batter hit the ball right through the GAPING HOLE YOU LEFT BETWEEN THE FOUL LINE AND THE SHORTSTOP WHILE YOU WERE BEHIND THE RUNNER BEING CLEVER, THE RUNNNER SCORED ANYWAY, AND THAT THE BATTER ENDED UP AT SECOND BASE WITH A DOUBLE?
Jimmy: Uh, yeah coach I noticed.
Coach: Still feeling lucky Jimmy?
Coach: Hey Jimmy, what were you doing down there at third base?
Jimmy: Well, you know coach, I was thinking that if I moved over behind the runner, like, in foul ground, that he might not see me and we could pick him off.
Coach: Pretty clever Jimmy. But did you notice that our pitcher didn't throw to you but pitched to the batter?
Jimmy: Yeah coach, I saw that.
Coach: Did you know Jimmy that if any of our players, except the catcher, are on foul ground when our pitcher delivers a pitch that it's a balk?
Jimmy: Didn't know that coach. How come the Ump didn't call a balk?
Coach: Well, Jimmy, there's only two Umps out there and sometimes situations don't let them see eveything that happens.
Jimmy: Wow coach! I guess we got lucky there huh?
Coach: Almost lucky Jimmy.
Jimmy: What do you mean "almost" lucky coach?
Coach: Well, Jimmy, did you also notice that the batter hit the ball right through the GAPING HOLE YOU LEFT BETWEEN THE FOUL LINE AND THE SHORTSTOP WHILE YOU WERE BEHIND THE RUNNER BEING CLEVER, THE RUNNNER SCORED ANYWAY, AND THAT THE BATTER ENDED UP AT SECOND BASE WITH A DOUBLE?
Jimmy: Uh, yeah coach I noticed.
Coach: Still feeling lucky Jimmy?