Balk or not?

sounds like he's making a move assoc with his pitch while disengaged. Balk.

No balk......he stepped off with the correct foot....back/posting foot......

Lon has it right. It's a balk for simulating a pitch off the rubber.

Isn't an inside move deceiving a runner.....but not a balk.....LHP move to first base, deceptive but not a balk......RHP move to third base from the set, deceptive but not a balk.....From the wind up what other way can you step off legally other than with your back foot (RHP right foot, LHP left foot).....If the pitcher, in the situation given by RT, stepped off of the rubber with the back/post foot without moving his front/stride leg/foot FIRST then he is ok......It's not the pitchers fault that the runner at third is not paying attention to which foot the pitcher moves first and is so called "deceived".......the balk rule is a strange one as it is.........but oh well....

The problem isn't which foot he stepped off with but what he did with his hands.
In HS you can do two things from the wind-up, three in OBR.
1. Pitch
2. Step off and feint or throw to a base.
3. OBR only: Step to a base and throw.
What he did, from the description, was step off with his right foot: OK so far. Then either as he stepped off or as he landed his foot, raised his hands like he was pitching and threw to third. It's the second part that got him. Once you step off you can't do anything that looks like a pitching motion. If you are stepping off but start your hands as you do it, then that's the start of your pitch and you must go home. Either way it's a balk.

Many get hung up on the deception portion of the rule and think that a balk is a deception of the runner. The pitcher's job is to legally deceive and pick the runner. The deception comment references this and adds if in doubt intent to balk the deception.
Balks fall in three catagories. Technical, deceiving a runner and deceiving one or both the runner and batter. Technical balks have nothing to do with the deception theory and are mechanical in nature.
8.05 in OBR has 13 parts.
D,E,H,K,L are all techical balks.
B,C,G,I are all deception balks.
A,J are deception to either/or to the batter/runner.

MT.....no where in RT original post does it say anything about his hands.....we don't know if the pitcher takes his hands over his head.....we don't know if the pitcher keeps his hands at his belt or chest.......I just beg to differ....once he steps off legally, which I feel is the case here, the pitcher can do anything he wants....He is then an infielder.....he is disenganged...

And how do we know what level of play it is?????......he said initiates the wind up with a rocker step with his pivot foot.......

You cannot initiate your delivery with your pivot foot....that is stepping off of the rubber......

the same foot you step off of the rubber when pitching from the set......

sorry, once disengaged the pitcher cannot do anything he wants......ie. load up the ball, deface/scuff the ball, go to his mouth in the dirt etc...

8.05 It is a balk when...

"...(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;"

The OP says he 'lifted his knee' to throw to Third. This is most likely simulating the start of his motion while disengaged. Balk.

how else would he step toward third to throw.....Other thing we don't know is if the pitcher is left or right handed

I didnt know that human physiology required that one had to kick his leg up to make a throw. Ive seen people throw with both feet on the ground before, once or twice. He can step to Third, fine. But a leg kick in imitation of his pitching motion is not allowed.

But, we werent there and didnt see it, which is why I dislike 'is it a balk?' questions sometimes because its judgement most times.

But if the pitcher simulated any part of his pitching motion (leg kick, bringing glove/ball overhead, whatever his motion may be) while disengaged, its a balk. Its right there in 8.05(g). Black and white.

The only question is how much, if any, this pitchers actions mimicked his pitching motion. I dont know for sure and neither do you. Only Mr. Tomas can answer that.

But, to say the pitcher can 'do anything' while off the rubber is false. He can throw to any base, but cannot mimic his pitching motion while disengaged.

I appreciate all the replies, guys.

I don't recall what the pitcher did with his hands. I just remember that he did employ a knee lift. I also remember that my take on it at the time was that the pitcher was trying to make it look like he was executing his normal wind-up delivery to coerce the runner into taking a big lead while while preserving the option to step off and the throw to 3B. I'm not the expert you guys are but I think 8.05g applies.

BTW, nothing was called. I don't think the umpires realized what had just happened. I recognized it only because I was previously familiar with that "fake" move. (Never tried it - just aware of it.)

We'll be playing the same team again this weekend so if I spot that same move again, I'll be armed with the information I need. Do you think it would be better to make the umpires aware of the issue before the game begins or wait and discuss it only if it happens and the umps don't call it? Thanks!

"And how do we know what level of play it is?????......"



this is a HS site...as in HSBaseballweb.....during the active HS season, when quoting rules, we defer to NFHS rules.

Next month when summer ball is more prevalent, we usually either clarify or ask what code to discuss....

From the original post, Ive got an easy chicken here.......

Balk....Balk...Balk

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
MT.....no where in RT original post does it say anything about his hands.....we don't know if the pitcher takes his hands over his head.....we don't know if the pitcher keeps his hands at his belt or chest.......I just beg to differ....once he steps off legally, which I feel is the case here, the pitcher can do anything he wants....He is then an infielder.....he is disenganged...

You are correct, the OP doesn't mention the hands. It did say he initiated a wind-up motion which to me meant the hands started. Bad assumption on my part.

Michael, I know exactly what you have meant the whole time.......Thank You......

but the OP said the wind up was initiated with a rocker step back with the pivot foot leg.....there in lies a problem.....you cannot take a rocker step with your pivot foot.......as I read it he simply stepped off with his pivot foot......Roger Thomas interpreted it as initiating his delivery.......blah blah blah.....bottom line is what in the world is someone doing allowing silly little stuff like this to occur....did someone teach this kid to do this?????..........How do you pick someone off who has a lick of sense at all??????.....WATCH THE PITCHERS PIVOT FOOT WHEN HE DECIDES TO THROW FROM WIND UP WITH MEN ON THIRD / SECOND AND THIRD / OR LOADED.......HE MOVES THAT FOOT FIRST THEN BACK TO THE BASE YOU GO......PRETTY DARN SIMPLE......Just goes to show how little some youth and HS coaches are teaching.....due to ignorance I feel.......not entirely their fault........UNCLE!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
bottom line is what in the world is someone doing allowing silly little stuff like this to occur....did someone teach this kid to do this?????..........

Could be. But I have no idea what the opposing coaches teach their kids.

quote:

How do you pick someone off who has a lick of sense at all??????.....WATCH THE PITCHERS PIVOT FOOT WHEN HE DECIDES TO THROW FROM WIND UP WITH MEN ON THIRD / SECOND AND THIRD / OR LOADED.......HE MOVES THAT FOOT FIRST THEN BACK TO THE BASE YOU GO......PRETTY DARN SIMPLE......Just goes to show how little some youth and HS coaches are teaching.....due to ignorance I feel.......not entirely their fault........UNCLE!!!!!!!!

I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Noone was picked off in the scenario I described because our players are taught to watch the back foot. But a balk call would have scored a run.

We were once told that as long as the hands don't move, it's just like stepping off, but if the hands go up or down before contact is broken, it's a balk.

It's just that the whole scenario is absurd.....shouldn't have even taken place.......

Why is the kid throwing from the wind-up????
There are men on base.....even if it is third base only.......don't give the runner a chance to even think about stealing home.....Throw from the set and if the runner gets outrageous with his leads then put something on......but do it from the set.........if the score is lop sided then go ahead and throw from the wind-up, who cares if he scores, get locked in on the hitter.....just so many things that go on.....sorry not the forum for this.....