Dee,
Looks like too much info is troubling to you.
Ryan was not an effective pitcher in the National League and was thrown in on the Fregosi trade.
In those days there were different strike zones in each league. The National League strike zone was lower than that used by the American League. Most people attributed this to the fact that National League umpires wore the chest protector rather than holding the inflated protector as was done in the AL. Others say that it was because the American League style of play was more suited to power hitters and home runs.
Ryan depended on heat to get him by for his successful years. Once he lost his effectiveness with the Angels, he was signed as a free agent by the Astros. He had a resurgence with the Astros.
Quincy,
Yes I did mean # 661, thanks for the correction! Bet I’ve seen that home run more than a hundred times.
Regarding this discussion, I’ve never really liked Barry Bonds all that much, with or without steroid accusations. However, in my opinion, it took more than steroids for him to be the kind of hitter he is.
I do get a bit tired of all the steroid discussions at times. It happened and let’s hope it doesn't happen in the future. I know it’s important and needs to be addressed, but it gets kind of old after awhile. It’s almost like people ignore everything else except the steroids when it comes to Bonds. Some of the stuff brought up as proof makes sense, but other things don’t make any sense when it comes to hitting. For example… Is having a bigger head an advantage for a hitter?
Like nearly everyone else, I really do believe that steroids played a part in Bonds being so good in his later years, but I also think there were other things that also made him better. And not the elbow guard either.
Barry Bonds improved his swing and his approach over the years. It was a real big improvement and along with everything else, his improved swing has to be one of the major reasons for his success.
I doubt if Bonds is the strongest and most powerful hitter in baseball. But he does have the best power swing IMO. (with or without any help from other things)
We should at least give him credit for developing that swing! It’s a masterpiece!
Yes I did mean # 661, thanks for the correction! Bet I’ve seen that home run more than a hundred times.
Regarding this discussion, I’ve never really liked Barry Bonds all that much, with or without steroid accusations. However, in my opinion, it took more than steroids for him to be the kind of hitter he is.
I do get a bit tired of all the steroid discussions at times. It happened and let’s hope it doesn't happen in the future. I know it’s important and needs to be addressed, but it gets kind of old after awhile. It’s almost like people ignore everything else except the steroids when it comes to Bonds. Some of the stuff brought up as proof makes sense, but other things don’t make any sense when it comes to hitting. For example… Is having a bigger head an advantage for a hitter?
Like nearly everyone else, I really do believe that steroids played a part in Bonds being so good in his later years, but I also think there were other things that also made him better. And not the elbow guard either.
Barry Bonds improved his swing and his approach over the years. It was a real big improvement and along with everything else, his improved swing has to be one of the major reasons for his success.
I doubt if Bonds is the strongest and most powerful hitter in baseball. But he does have the best power swing IMO. (with or without any help from other things)
We should at least give him credit for developing that swing! It’s a masterpiece!
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Oh how the numbers can be "worked".
There has been NO ONE to put up the "per at bat numbers" that Bonds did IN HIS PRIME.
Yes, his career numbers may not match up.
Put all of 'em in their prime and Bond's had the greatest PRIME ever.
There has never been anyone swing the bat as efficiently as Bonds. NEVER.
And the statement about who hit behind Bond's is simply amazing.
Guess who hit behind Dal Maxvill? How many walks did he get?
What years would you say were his prime? His years with the Pirates??? During the period everyone knew he was on steroids?
This is Williams best season:
1941
AB 456
R 135
H 185
2B 33
3B 3
HR 37
RBI 120
TB 335
BB 145
SO 27
OBP .551
SLG .735
AVG .406
He followed that up with 36 HR, .499 OBP, .648 SLG, .356 AVG. Then he went to war for 3 years. Kind of tough to sit out three years (in your prime)and come back to MLB hitting, huh? Not for Teddy ballgame! 38 HR, .497 OBP, .667 SLG, .342 AVG.
I totally agree.
Bonds has become possibly the biggest attraction in the national league. He may have the most efficient swing in the last 20 years.
I just do not agree that the stats say that Bonds is better than Ruth as a home run hitter or batter overall.
On the Who hit behind issue, how many intentional walks did Roger Maris recieve in '61 the year he hit 61 home runs?
Bonds has become possibly the biggest attraction in the national league. He may have the most efficient swing in the last 20 years.
I just do not agree that the stats say that Bonds is better than Ruth as a home run hitter or batter overall.
On the Who hit behind issue, how many intentional walks did Roger Maris recieve in '61 the year he hit 61 home runs?
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Guess who hit behind Dal Maxvill? How many walks did he get?
Who cares who hit behind a .217 lifetime hitter???
This discussion got me to checking the stats. Baseball Almanac has a section listing the top 100 all time in various statistical categories.
Top 100
Others can go check the where Aaron, Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Mays, etc. rank in all those categories, but here’s one that really amazed me.
Top 100 all time Grounded into Double plays
The top two are Cal Ripken Jr and Hank Aaron. Active players listed include; Julio Franco, Ivan Rodriguez, Vinny Castillo, Bernie Williams, Mike Piazza, Royce Clayton, Frank Thomas, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Kent, Ruben Sierra, Manny Ramirez, Luis Gonzalez, Sammy Sosa.
Willie Mays, Rod Carew, Robin Yount, Ernie Banks, Stan Musial, Wade Boggs, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Johnny Bench and Ted Williams are all on the list.
Is it kind of surprising that Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds are not on the list?
Top 100
Others can go check the where Aaron, Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Mays, etc. rank in all those categories, but here’s one that really amazed me.
Top 100 all time Grounded into Double plays
The top two are Cal Ripken Jr and Hank Aaron. Active players listed include; Julio Franco, Ivan Rodriguez, Vinny Castillo, Bernie Williams, Mike Piazza, Royce Clayton, Frank Thomas, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Kent, Ruben Sierra, Manny Ramirez, Luis Gonzalez, Sammy Sosa.
Willie Mays, Rod Carew, Robin Yount, Ernie Banks, Stan Musial, Wade Boggs, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Johnny Bench and Ted Williams are all on the list.
Is it kind of surprising that Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds are not on the list?
I would have thought that Dave Winfield would have led that list. He killed more rallies than a good relief pitcher.
Quincy
only when its info you made up.
I like how you support this with fact...Oh, wait.
Ryan was a winning pitcher with the Angels and struck out over a man per inning. Once Ryan "lost his effectivness" the Astros signed him to the first 1,000,000 dollar a year deal ever. I hope im rewarded as such when I lose my effectivness.
quote:Looks like too much info is troubling to you.
only when its info you made up.
quote:In those days there were different strike zones in each league.
I like how you support this with fact...Oh, wait.
quote:Once he lost his effectiveness with the Angels, he was signed as a free agent by the Astros. He had a resurgence with the Astros.
Ryan was a winning pitcher with the Angels and struck out over a man per inning. Once Ryan "lost his effectivness" the Astros signed him to the first 1,000,000 dollar a year deal ever. I hope im rewarded as such when I lose my effectivness.
Makes no difference if you believe me about the different strike zones, but that is fact.
Ryan walked too many batters with the Angels costing them games, as bad as they were (200 walks one year alone).
The Astros felt that Ryan was worth the million for his no-hitters and overall strike outs, but he was not their ticket to the World Series.
He made most of his money with Texas more for his marquee value and seniority.
Careerwise he had a ,526 winning percentage, not very stellar, walked far more batters than any pitcher in baseball history, yet his claim to fame was his flashes of brilliance in the no-hitters.
Having followed his career first hand had he stayed with the National League at 25, he would have been out of baseball by 27 for his lack of control.
Ryan walked too many batters with the Angels costing them games, as bad as they were (200 walks one year alone).
The Astros felt that Ryan was worth the million for his no-hitters and overall strike outs, but he was not their ticket to the World Series.
He made most of his money with Texas more for his marquee value and seniority.
Careerwise he had a ,526 winning percentage, not very stellar, walked far more batters than any pitcher in baseball history, yet his claim to fame was his flashes of brilliance in the no-hitters.
Having followed his career first hand had he stayed with the National League at 25, he would have been out of baseball by 27 for his lack of control.
Oh Please, give me a break.
Outside of Roger Clemens, and even that is a stretch.
Nolen Ryan was one if not the ONE greatest pitcher of all time.
EH
Outside of Roger Clemens, and even that is a stretch.
Nolen Ryan was one if not the ONE greatest pitcher of all time.
EH
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
This discussion got me to checking the stats. Baseball Almanac has a section listing the top 100 all time in various statistical categories.
Top 100
Others can go check the where Aaron, Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Mays, etc. rank in all those categories, but here’s one that really amazed me.
Top 100 all time Grounded into Double plays
The top two are Cal Ripken Jr and Hank Aaron. Active players listed include; Julio Franco, Ivan Rodriguez, Vinny Castillo, Bernie Williams, Mike Piazza, Royce Clayton, Frank Thomas, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Kent, Ruben Sierra, Manny Ramirez, Luis Gonzalez, Sammy Sosa.
Willie Mays, Rod Carew, Robin Yount, Ernie Banks, Stan Musial, Wade Boggs, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Johnny Bench and Ted Williams are all on the list.
Is it kind of surprising that Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds are not on the list?
It doesn't surprise me that Ruth and Bonds aren't on the list. For one, Bonds had very good speed for most of his career. Two, both struck out a lot, hit a lot of Home runs, and walked a lot. Not many ABs left for DPs.
Aaron played well after he should have been done, so I would guess many of his DPs were in the later years. Williams was never a speed demon and didn't strike out much, therefore more opportunities for DPs.
Not many base stealers (lack of speed) in that group and most of them didn't strike out much, so there aren't many surprises on the list for me.
Ryan was the Ankiel of his day with better coaches and better teammates in his early years.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Ryan was the Ankiel of his day with better coaches and better teammates in his early years.
A bad comparison. Totally different scenerios. I think you are making things up just for the sake of arguement. Thats OK though, these forums need a spark once in while. Kudos.
Nah, not making it up.
Just look at the numbers.
Did Ryan get so much better in the AL or does somethng else give rise to the vast improvement in his strike out totals ?
Just look at the numbers.
Did Ryan get so much better in the AL or does somethng else give rise to the vast improvement in his strike out totals ?
There were a number of factors that resulted in Nolan Ryan being a significantly better pitcher with the Angels than the Mets.
1) According to his biography, when he went to the Angels was the first time he lifted weights. The Angels had a weight room and the Mets didn't (Imagine a major league team without a weight room these days)
2) He went from being a part time starter with the Mets to an every fourth day guy with the Angels.
3) He was no longer under the military commitment which had hampered his development for the first four years with the Mets.
When Nolan became a free agent with the Angels and moved over to the Astros, that was during the free agent draft - where teams could "draft" a free agent - indicating their interest. Nolan was drafted by 12 teams - hardly a lack of interest. His contract with the Astros was for a million dollars - the first such contract - and it was a situation where the Yankees had made that offer and the astros matched it.
Lastly, re the changeup - he threw Bobby Grich a changeup for a called strike three as the last pitch of his 4th no hitter - in 1975. So he obviously had that pitch in his toolbag by then - and was very confident with it...
Tom Seaver claims to have worked with Nolan on his curveball when he was 23 - when "he started to throw it on a regular basis". Given Nolan was born in 1947, that would be the 1970 season - while he was still with the Mets.
08
1) According to his biography, when he went to the Angels was the first time he lifted weights. The Angels had a weight room and the Mets didn't (Imagine a major league team without a weight room these days)
2) He went from being a part time starter with the Mets to an every fourth day guy with the Angels.
3) He was no longer under the military commitment which had hampered his development for the first four years with the Mets.
When Nolan became a free agent with the Angels and moved over to the Astros, that was during the free agent draft - where teams could "draft" a free agent - indicating their interest. Nolan was drafted by 12 teams - hardly a lack of interest. His contract with the Astros was for a million dollars - the first such contract - and it was a situation where the Yankees had made that offer and the astros matched it.
Lastly, re the changeup - he threw Bobby Grich a changeup for a called strike three as the last pitch of his 4th no hitter - in 1975. So he obviously had that pitch in his toolbag by then - and was very confident with it...
Tom Seaver claims to have worked with Nolan on his curveball when he was 23 - when "he started to throw it on a regular basis". Given Nolan was born in 1947, that would be the 1970 season - while he was still with the Mets.
08
In the American League Ryan was mowing em down.
When he returned to the National League with the exception of maybe two years he averaged one strike out per inning.
When he returned to the American League with Texas, he was again hitting three hundred strike outs.
When he returned to the National League with the exception of maybe two years he averaged one strike out per inning.
When he returned to the American League with Texas, he was again hitting three hundred strike outs.
BOTTOM LINE:
This is not to take away from Ryan's accomplishments but he was merely a bit better than a .500 pticher---had it not been for the K's and the No No's he was a very aveage pitcher---I much rather want Seaver on my staff
This is not to take away from Ryan's accomplishments but he was merely a bit better than a .500 pticher---had it not been for the K's and the No No's he was a very aveage pitcher---I much rather want Seaver on my staff
Just got a chance to see the DP top 100 list. That is a group that I would be proud to be on. Those guys played a long time and had great careers. From a fans perspective, give me the top 10 in their prime anyday of the week!!
And the same with Ryan, every time he pitched on TV I was glued to the set. There were better pitchers out there, but none were as electric. He was worth the million on attendance alone.
And the same with Ryan, every time he pitched on TV I was glued to the set. There were better pitchers out there, but none were as electric. He was worth the million on attendance alone.
TR,
Other than his W-L record I've never heard Nolan Ryan called average. If you take away his strikeouts and no hitters, you still have to look at his 324 wins and lifetime 3.19 ERA. How can someone who won 324 games be an average pitcher?
And here's another stat that he is the all time leader in. Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings for a career. (6.55). To put this into perspective, Greg Maddox averages about 8.5 hits per 9 innings over his career.
In 1972 he gave up 5.26 hits per 9 innings to lead the league. 20 years later he gave up 5.31 hits per 9 innings to lead the league.
Nolan Ryan average for a 9 inning game over his entire career would look something like this.
9 IP, 5 hits, 3 Runs, 4 BB, 10 SO
And that was over 27 years, in 807 games.
Other than his W-L record I've never heard Nolan Ryan called average. If you take away his strikeouts and no hitters, you still have to look at his 324 wins and lifetime 3.19 ERA. How can someone who won 324 games be an average pitcher?
And here's another stat that he is the all time leader in. Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings for a career. (6.55). To put this into perspective, Greg Maddox averages about 8.5 hits per 9 innings over his career.
In 1972 he gave up 5.26 hits per 9 innings to lead the league. 20 years later he gave up 5.31 hits per 9 innings to lead the league.
Nolan Ryan average for a 9 inning game over his entire career would look something like this.
9 IP, 5 hits, 3 Runs, 4 BB, 10 SO
And that was over 27 years, in 807 games.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
TR,
Other than his W-L record I've never heard Nolan Ryan called average. If you take away his strikeouts and no hitters, you still have to look at his 324 wins and lifetime 3.19 ERA. How can someone who won 324 games be an average pitcher?
And here's another stat that he is the all time leader in. Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings for a career. (6.55). To put this into perspective, Greg Maddox averages about 8.5 hits per 9 innings over his career.
In 1972 he gave up 5.26 hits per 9 innings to lead the league. 20 years later he gave up 5.31 hits per 9 innings to lead the league.
Nolan Ryan average for a 9 inning game over his entire career would look something like this.
9 IP, 5 hits, 3 Runs, 4 BB, 10 SO
And that was over 27 years, in 807 games.
Thank God someone besides me saw this too! He gave up fewer hits and HRs than Clemens or Seaver. His won/loss record is bad because his teams sucked. Look at his unearned runs stats compared to some of the best in the game. People want to talk about his BBs, but if you walk 2 and strike out 3, guess what? No runs score!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
TR,
Other than his W-L record I've never heard Nolan Ryan called average. If you take away his strikeouts and no hitters, you still have to look at his 324 wins and lifetime 3.19 ERA. How can someone who won 324 games be an average pitcher?
And here's another stat that he is the all time leader in. Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings for a career. (6.55). To put this into perspective, Greg Maddox averages about 8.5 hits per 9 innings over his career.
In 1972 he gave up 5.26 hits per 9 innings to lead the league. 20 years later he gave up 5.31 hits per 9 innings to lead the league.
Nolan Ryan average for a 9 inning game over his entire career would look something like this.
9 IP, 5 hits, 3 Runs, 4 BB, 10 SO
And that was over 27 years, in 807 games.
Looks like you can't say you've never heard Ryan called average anymore.
His win total, in my eyes atleast, is due to his longevity not necessarily his ability---he was in fact barely more than a .500 pitcher---I not downgrading what he did but I still don't put him the class with others like Spahn, Ford, Seaver, Marichal, Koufax et al
When Ryan was on, he was very good. Sadly he was not on enough to be considered a great pitcher in my view.
With such impressive stats, one would think that this pitcher never lost a game or had a winning percentage of .900.
Great pitchers raise the level of their team's ability to win, Ryan was not great. He played for teams that were usually .500 ball clubs. Other pitchers could win twenty games on these clubs, but Ryan couldn't.
Even though Bert Blyleven has over three thousand strike outs, his .534 winning percent and 287 wins do not lead voters to consider him for the Hall of Fame.
With such impressive stats, one would think that this pitcher never lost a game or had a winning percentage of .900.
Great pitchers raise the level of their team's ability to win, Ryan was not great. He played for teams that were usually .500 ball clubs. Other pitchers could win twenty games on these clubs, but Ryan couldn't.
Even though Bert Blyleven has over three thousand strike outs, his .534 winning percent and 287 wins do not lead voters to consider him for the Hall of Fame.
quote:I think you are making things up just for the sake of arguement. Thats OK though, these forums need a spark once in while. Kudos.
Yep.......
From MLB.com - Ask The Umpire
I miss the old-style balloon chest protectors that home-plate umpires used to wear. It was one way to distinguish AL from NL games. It seemed to offer better protection too. Who was the last umpire to use this protection and is their use banned by rules?
-- BlueDog
Jerry Layne: Jerry Neudecker in the mid-80s, somewhere in there. I don't know if it's banned by rules, but it's been common that you don't get to see the ball as good looking up over the head like that. It's better to work with the chest protector inside your shirt and have the pitch come toward you. You can tell more about low pitches and in and out, stuff like that.
I miss the old-style balloon chest protectors that home-plate umpires used to wear. It was one way to distinguish AL from NL games. It seemed to offer better protection too. Who was the last umpire to use this protection and is their use banned by rules?
-- BlueDog
Jerry Layne: Jerry Neudecker in the mid-80s, somewhere in there. I don't know if it's banned by rules, but it's been common that you don't get to see the ball as good looking up over the head like that. It's better to work with the chest protector inside your shirt and have the pitch come toward you. You can tell more about low pitches and in and out, stuff like that.
TR I understand where you are coming from. I agree that maybe he wasn't one of the greatest pitchers, but IMO I haven't seen any "very average" pitchers last 27 years let alone have a career 3.19 ERA.quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
His win total, in my eyes atleast, is due to his longevity not necessarily his ability---he was in fact barely more than a .500 pitcher---I not downgrading what he did but I still don't put him the class with others like Spahn, Ford, Seaver, Marichal, Koufax et al
By average I refer to him being merely a bit n more than a 500 pitcher
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
By average I refer to him being merely a bit n more than a 500 pitcher
A lot of "great pitchers" would have been "average pitchers" if they would have pitched for the Angels and Astros when he did.
I'd bet that Ted Williams would have been a great pitcher with the Angels and Astros. lol
Couldn't resist.
The 'stros were a good ball club in that era. They played the Mets in a tough NLCS in 86.
Couldn't resist.
The 'stros were a good ball club in that era. They played the Mets in a tough NLCS in 86.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
I'd bet that Ted Williams would have been a great pitcher with the Angels and Astros. lol
Couldn't resist.
The 'stros were a good ball club in that era. They played the Mets in a tough NLCS in 86.
Good, but very little run production.
