Base on Balls

33+ years ago in Senior LL I used to throw behind the runner at first from C and more than once he strolled off and was out. It's been a long time, so I don't know if the rules have changed.

In pro rules he is allowed to overrun the bag just as if he was running the bases. If he makes a turn or strolls off the bag he is subject to be tagged.

Under NFHS (Fed) rules the batter-runner is not protected if he overruns first base on a base on balls and can be tagged out if he does so.

quote:

Could you please provide a link?

NFHS 8-2-7.

Refer to a previous post started on May 5, 2006 titled Base on Balls/Runner Question. There is a rather lengthy thread regarding this topic. Interestingly, it was started by cccsdad.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
[QUOTE]In pro rules he is allowed to overrun the bag just as if he was running the bases. If he makes a turn or strolls off the bag he is subject to be tagged.

That's odd you mention Pro Ball, Our state USSSA coordinator is Ted Cox, (former Major league player) He says in pro ball you are not allowed to over run first on a B.O.B

I am going by memory but I'm sure that Pilsner is correct on HS. I'm fairly sure I'm right about OBR. I'm not saying your USSSA/ex por player doesn't know but never take a player's word on rules. I have umpired for many ex-pro players and what they don't know about rules is scary. Just listen to most any baseball game and you will see what I mean.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
Refer to a previous post started on May 5, 2006 titled Base on Balls/Runner Question. There is a rather lengthy thread regarding this topic. Interestingly, it was started by cccsdad.

That is interesting......a troll in our midst, eh?

Troll? Nah, I don't think so. Perhaps just a bit forgetful.

OBR's 6.08 (a) includes in italics that "If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him."

I think I have to agree with the opinion in the original post. The italicized portion of 6.08 (a) does little to clarify the situation, though, specifically since it speaks to oversliding, which I assume to be a reference to second or third base rather than first.

However, I umpire 10u baseball that plays under OBR. I would be hard pressed to call a runner out for overrunning first on a base on balls. There is only one coach I know that would argue, and he wouldn't get too far on that when I reminded him about the teaching fundamentals portion of our mission statement.

The other post regarding this situation mentions situation manuals and case studies. Are these available online for further study?

Most of these are not available online, bu the best rules reference books I can tell you about are;

Baseball Rules Differences- By Carl Childress...it is a complete reference of OBR-FED-NCAA rules by comparison and contrast

Jaksa/Roder- Baseball rules and interps.

PBUC Manual- This is the OBR professional umpires manual. interps/coverages

NFHS- offers an umpire manual as well. differs from the PBUC.

CCA Mechanic Manual- basically the college umpires manual.

Not cheap, but worth the money. The BRD is published yearly to keep current.

hope this helps

quote:

Originally posted by T-Rex:
However, I umpire 10u baseball that plays under OBR.

I’m curious as to what 10YO’s could play under OBR. Or did you mean modified OBR.

We play under local modifications, USSSA, and OBR.

I only stated OBR to distinguish from Fed, and did not mention our local modifications nor USSSA because these do not discuss this topic, as I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by T-Rex:
We play under local modifications, USSSA, and OBR.

I only stated OBR to distinguish from Fed, and did not mention our local modifications nor USSSA because these do not discuss this topic, as I recall.

I hope you don’t think I was taking a shot at you.

I just hear so many people talk about how their kids play “real” baseball because they play with lead offs, then start to knock LLI, I pick up on it when someone says they have kids that age playing under OBR.

Wouldn’t it be ever so much easier on everyone if everyone really did play under OBR? I can’t for the life of me figure out why an 18YO player playing in LLI, HS, College, or in some kind of tournament can’t all play by the same rules.

The only thing I can figger out is that its all about kingdoms, and kingdoms are all about money.

Heck, I remember talking to a fellow one time about what rules USSSA played under, and trying to explain to him that the rules were not the same as they used in the ML. He argued and called me all kinds of names simply because he just didn’t know what I knew. I knew what they were using because I’d just recently looked at what the USSSA uses,
http://usssabaseball.org/Forms/2003-04%20Baseball%20Rules.pdf

He didn’t know he’d have to spend $18 bucks every year to buy the TSN’s book. Like I said, its always about money someplace.

I didn't think you were taking a shot. I frequent the other umpire forum you occasionally post to. Shots are fired over there.

However, our 10u league does play with lead offs, balks and the dropped third strike rule. I am expected to call balks on pitchers who are taking the mound for the first time thinking about everything they need to do to deliver a pitch while runners are going from first to third on two pitches. I agree, this is not real baseball, but more of a show of which coach is more aggressive on the base paths.

As a funny side note, our local modifications state that for items not specifically covered by either local rules or USSSA rules, we are to refer to "The Official Rules of Baseball: The Sporting News Edition, as edited for USSSA." So technically, we play by rules in a book that doesn't exist.

quote:

Originally posted by T-Rex:
I didn't think you were taking a shot. I frequent the other umpire forum you occasionally post to. Shots are fired over there.
WHEW! This is a great board, but I find myself apologizing about every 5th post here, and I ‘m never sure why.

However, our 10u league does play with lead offs, balks and the dropped third strike rule. I am expected to call balks on pitchers who are taking the mound for the first time thinking about everything they need to do to deliver a pitch while runners are going from first to third on two pitches. I agree, this is not real baseball, but more of a show of which coach is more aggressive on the base paths.
My kid came through that age in LLI, and to tell the truth, I never really understood why people are so intent on having the little ones with so little experience, have to think about more thing than they have to, by playing with the added distractions you mentioned.

I’ll admit that when they played team who had been playing those rules and those rules were used, our kids got taken advantage of pretty substantially, but on the whole, one our kids turned 13 and hit the big field, it took less than a half a season to catch on.

Do you see any huge advantage for kids who do play those rules at say the JV or V level?

As a funny side note, our local modifications state that for items not specifically covered by either local rules or USSSA rules, we are to refer to "The Official Rules of Baseball: The Sporting News Edition, as edited for USSSA." So technically, we play by rules in a book that doesn't exist.


I’m currently making a small attempt to find out how and why all these organizations like USSA, NCAA, NFHS, and others don’t all get together with MLB and use "The Official Rules of Baseball, as edited for …."

I just got an e-mail back form a fellow who scores games for MLB.com. He had no idea that here were different templates for NFHS and NCAA, and said he could certainly understand how it could be confusing for folks who bounced back and forth from one rule set to another. People who’ve never tried to do it just don’t understand what a PITA it can be.

And in the case of NFHS, its really terrible because there are so many things that can vary from association to association, and even from league to league.

As I’ve said before, the only thing I can see for it to keep going on is established kingdoms hate to relinquish any control at all.

Scorekeeper,
Here's an up to date version of the USSSA rules. I think you'll find that they are rather different than the link you provided. Certainly longer! USSSA rules posted online Jan '07

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Scorekeeper,
Here's an up to date version of the USSSA rules. I think you'll find that they are rather different than the link you provided. Certainly longer! USSSA rules posted online Jan '07

Now that’s funny!

The link I posted was the actual link I’d looked at when I’d done what I was relating in the story, and I hadn’t looked at it since. Just for kicks, I Googled “usssa rules” this morning and guess what? That link was still the 1st one that showed up!

Thanx for the link though, Like a good boy I saved it for future reference because I have a friend who’s coaching a 10U team that plays lots of usssa tourneys, so it’ll come in handy. Do ya suppose they’re gonna post a 2007 version soon?

One thing I noticed in the 2004 version was they got in there and mucked around with the template by inserting things where they didn’t belong, then said they were playing under the OBR., and this new one is much worse!

Then I saw the FORWARD where USSSA in effect says they aren’t using OBR any longer because they’ve incorporated it into the Official Baseball National By-laws & Rules at the appropriate places, which effectively indicates they no longer play under OBR, but by their own rule set, just as the NCAA and NFHS do.

To me its all just NUTS and way too complicated! All I can say is, I’m sure glad I’m not an umpire, because I truly feel I can’t even be a decent SK in the sense that I’m being true to the rules when scoring games.