Baseball America

VA_Sportsmom

quote:

but it's a stretch to suggest individual rankings for young ages are merely a response to market demand

How is it a stretch? BA sells extra magazines, but no one is forced to buy one. What other motive does a business have? Is there malicious intent on Baseball America's behalf? You seem to imply there is.

AAU has All-Tourney Teams for 8 and under teams and no one complains. Is that bad?

Rankings are for parents. The kids don't care. You need to ask if it serves the parents. IMO probably not, but what's new about that. Parents have blown money for quite awhile.

My son began playing tournaments also around 10. That is the time when we decided the local LL chapters didn't provide enough competition for him. It was sometimes very difficult to find well organized events and if they were any good it was a matter of facing the same players year after year even in HS. I could never figure out why, living in a state where weather can provide year round baseball, someone didn't organize more tournaments for those folks up north to bring their players down during holidays.

We spent a significant amount of money for three years to send him out of state during the summer when it was not fashionable to do such a thing in middle school. There was very little good organized play when my son was in middle school, where he was only allowed to play softball, no baseball until HS. During spring it was a matter of facing the same competition week after week in travel ball. The same for fall ball in HS.
I do believe his extensive travel also prepared him for what was to come in college and will hoepfully prepare him for the future if he decides to move on to pro ball.

Parents are demanding more competition away from their geographical area (as witnessed by the huge turnouts during the summers and fall).

While I do not beieve in ranking players until HS, good organized tournaments with great competition, I would imagine, would always be welcomed. If that is what parents want, so be it, if not, then don't participate.

Some say burnout occurs, I think it's just a matter of some realizing there are other things to pursue in life.

Some say injuries occur because of early competition. I agree and disagree. Our son has been pitching since he was 8. Two short cases of tendinitous in 12 years. We were very careful to make sure he played with coaches that would offer good instruction and advice. No curves allowed until late in HS, we watched his innings and pitch counts carefully. Made sure he developed good pitching mechanics early on. He played year round but didn't pitch year round. He played other sports all his life.
So as far as injuries occuring from a steady diet of baseball at an early age, not sure if this is indicative of burnout or injury later on. My understanding from speaking from his pitching coach is most that come injured began pitching later in HS, where they were so good they were overused, poor mechanics, pitched with sore arms, muscles didn't have enough time to develop. But that's a whole other topic for discussion I suppose.

04,
I implied nothing of the kind. Your accusations regarding my post reveal how seriously flawed your logic is. I merely distinguished between what generates business and what serves the kids. Those 2 things are not always compatible and I think this is an example.

Being the proud father of a 12yo NOT on the BA list, I'm a bit confused over the controversy. "Lists" and "rankings" have always been a part of baseball. It starts with youth All Stars. Who would argue that making All Stars isn't a "ranking" of young ball player.

My son is motivated by "rankings" and I see nothing wrong with listing the accomplishments of young ball players. Is it the fact that it is a national list that bothers most? I can tell you from my son's perspective that having the highest batting average or leading his team in RBI's or pitching a no-hitter is his motivation. Being recognized for his accomplishments also motivates him. Someone wrote that if a 12yo were on the list then people would be pointing to them during games and they would have high expectations upon them. My son (and others) are always pointed out by parents and coaches during games. The better players are always talked about. Hearing coaches yell "Get back!" when he comes to bat still brings a grin to his face.

IMO, the most accurate post that I read in this thread was PG's when he wrote:

quote:

In my experience... Highly ranked players already have high expectations. If a player allows disappointment of being unranked stop him from reaching his goals, he probably doesn’t have what it takes.

That pretty much sums it up. What motivates the best ball players is being the best ball player. If a young player doesn't make All Stars then they try harder to make it next time. The players that don't try harder because of the setback simply don't have what it takes. JMO.

BTW, I couldn't wait to show my son the list that he didn't make. It simply drives him and motivates him to work harder.

I think Callaway's post is reflective of the "new" philososphy of youth baseball.

VA_Sportsmom

quote:

I'm not singling out PG here, and I don't have a problem with offering tournaments, but it's a stretch to suggest individual rankings for young ages are merely a response to market demand.

Sorry if I put words in your mouth drawing conclusions. What is a ranking in response to? What else motivates Baseball America?

TPM

I'm not sure if that was a "slap" or not. Either way, I don't apologize for the way my son feels. He is highly competitive and IMO his motivation to succeed will only help him later in life no matter what he is doing. Being rewarded for hard work is a good thing and learning to overcome adversity is even better. I don't believe that this is a "new" philosophy by any means. JMO.

O4, two concepts from Econ 101: demand pull and market PUSH. Oh, and two other competing concepts: individual performance and TEAM. They can co-exist, but let's not fool ourselves what the drivers are...

This thread has been really surprising to me. I don't understand all of the criticism of the idea of recognizing outstanding youth players, especially in the context of this board, which focuses on helping parents and players learn how to get to the next level. Does this mean that 12-yr-old leagues can't have All-Star teams at the end of the season either, since the players who didn't make the team will feel left out?

I agree that sometimes parents and coaches get way too competitive about, and identify too closely with, whose kid is the best, which team is the best, etc. but that's the fault of those parents and coaches. In my opinion, that shouldn't stop a baseball publication from entertaining us by telling us about some outstanding players around the country. My family enjoys reading about them, just as we enjoyed watching some of the LL World Series on TV this summer.

Callaway,
Was not a slap at all! Why would you presume it was?

My son hasn't been 12 for 8 years now. I was just commenting on how competition has changed, as the way I see it and I would suspect it has in every sport.
Things have changed, I don't ever remember all the showcases, tournaments that take place nowadays and if they did, we were not aware of them.
I often look back and say my son played for fun, but thinking about all of those All Star trophies and first place awards he accumulated, maybe he had other things on his mind.

Hello;

What difference does it really make, whether a player is "ranked"by a newspaper, a scout, PG, BA or his family. The end result is each player must prove it "on the field".

Can he make the necessary adjustments to compete?

My involvement in International Baseball, since 1983, has been to select the "best" players in the USA to compete against JAPAN, Korea, China and Australia National and State Teams.

Over 40% of our American players [110], who have played in our Goodwill Series games against the Japan National HS players in Stadiums seating 40,000 people, have played in the Major Leagues.

My only focus NOW is to find 18 players who can compete on this level next June and September.

The "slider" on the corner is not concerned with rankings or press clippings.

We will now begin our interviews and tryouts.

Pro scouts, PG and our journey to Australia in December with 54 players and 7 pro scouts will assist in our selection process.

Thank you;
Bob Williams
President
Goodwill Series Inc.

quote:

Does this mean that 12-yr-old leagues can't have All-Star teams at the end of the season either, since the players who didn't make the team will feel left out?

Naw.

My comments have been related to "ranking", or "scouting" or "evaluating".

Not about accolades.

PG's scouting reports and ranking services provided to Baseball America is not really about accolades, although it is an accolade to be followed by Perfect Game and Baseball America.

Perfect Games scouting, reporting, and rankings provided to Baseball America, also provide college coaches and professional baseball scouts with information they need for their respective evaluations.

Looking back, I realize how much pressure, I caused for my son, with my subtle encouragements to make the high school varisty.

He handled it very well.

But, not all of them will.

Now, in my mind, the intensity really increases as they participate in the 15-16 leagues, and then for sure as juniors and seniors.

Notice that is also when PG starts their tracking, reporting, and ranking.

I hate to see this process transition down to the 12 year olds because I think it serves no real purpose.

While I do know that professional baseball scouts do peak in on 13-14's for sure, and they might even peak back at 12, I think they really begin their evaluations during the spring and summer of players high school junior year.

And as bbscout pointed out to me a long time ago.

"There is no need to rush............."

Former

quote:

He handled it very well.

But, not all of them will.

That's the point. IMO, learning to handle pressure earlier is not a hindrance for those that can handle it. In fact, learning to handle pressure is a good thing, not a bad thing. I would also disagree with your definition of accolade. All Star selection is clearly a "ranking" of players. I think what most people are really objecting to is that BA is a national publication with national exposure. The article is interesting and one that those that "can handle it" might find of motivational value. JMO.

Albert Pujols was ranked in the top 400 or so by his draft position.

Shows what rankings mean.

Or

Maybe it says something about the rankers.

Bob, Your following quote speaks volumes

quote:

What difference does it really make, whether a player is "ranked"by a newspaper, a scout, PG, BA or his family. The end result is each player must prove it "on the field".

Can he make the necessary adjustments to compete?

I think everyone has to agree with those comments.

Repeated for the umpteenth time…. I am capable of changing my mind regarding any number of things. It happens a lot!

Yes, we do plan to run events for younger age groups, but I didn’t know we would be ranking the players. That is not to say we positively won’t, but I don’t think it is part of the plan.

If we did rank younger players it would be based on a much different criteria than how we rank older players. People often think we rank the older players only if they attend PG events. Those in the know… know that is not true.

However, if and when, we would rank younger age group players it would simply be based on those at the events. It would be PG rankings rather than National Rankings because we are not capable of seeing the majority of top 12 year olds.

Personally, I would be against doing this in any fashion, but I do know we plan to rank the younger TEAMS within our organization. In fact, we are about to release something new that is going to revolutionize amateur baseball. Everyone will see this within the next month if things go as planned.

Blowing off some steam

I really think there is way too much credit given myself regarding things PG is successful at. In turn, I also think there is sometimes too much blame targeted to yours truly for some of the not so successful things.

Perfect Game presently employs over 50 full time people and hundreds of part time people. I lack the mental capacity to make every decision. I have no real business experience or background. I’ve never been successful at anything other than baseball. My reputation within the game of baseball is simply one of honesty and plans are to keep it that way.

If there are any contradictions (mentioned in a post) involved it sure isn’t caused for the purpose of pulling the wool over someone’s eyes. Any contradictions would simply be a case of changing the mind or making adjustments.

Here is what I like the very most about this site.

While we may all disagree about things there is a common thread… most all of us love the game and are passionate about it.

I can’t always say everything I want on here because some people would look at it as marketing. I very much prefer talking about baseball or kids or trying to help someone, rather than talk about Perfect Game. For those that don’t believe that, please check out the past posts.

Callaway,

I must say, you got it figured out! Your son is very lucky!

On this site we often talk about outstanding youth players.

Here is something to ponder…

More people see this site than subscribe to Baseball America. I know we are not actually ranking players here, but it’s amazing how a young kid can become somewhat of a household name right here on this site. Our PG site gets 1.5 million unique visitors a year and people are always posting names of outstanding young players. I know these are not lists ranking players, but in a way don’t they accomplish publicity for those players. Is that unfair to those not mentioned? Or does it help promote youth baseball? Should it be stopped? Just something to think about. Once again I know it’s not some company ranking or promoting players which is the topic.

Seems as though we periodically read comments that hint of business and profit motivating everything we do. Some random thoughts for those who think we are motivated by money!

Regarding BUSINESS… I hate it!
Rankings… I hate them!
Charging people money to play baseball… I hate it!
Running tournaments and events… I hate it!
Relying on the weather… I hate it!
Paying bills… I hate it!
Listening to complaints… Everyone hates it!
Baseball… I love it!
Helping young players and others… I love it
Helping college coaches and scouts… I love it!

After spending many years gladly donating time to help young baseball players we started this business. At first we did not charge enough and bordered on bankruptcy for 6 years. Actually “dead in the water” at times! The only thing keeping us going was and is we thought we were doing something good for baseball. Had it been the hardware business, I would have been long gone 12 years ago!

I get tired of people who think we are taking advantage of others and making a fortune. Our payroll alone scares the hell out of me. When people make these "money motivated" comments, I call it addition without subtraction.

Personally If my reason for getting involved was based on making a ton of money, it wouldn’t have been anywhere near enough incentive. However, you don't pay the bills, you don't help anyone!

The biggest reward for those involved for the right reasons is being able to help young people become successful. And knowing you’re doing something to help the game you love. That formula has made our business successful.

Sorry, for boring everyone.

I guess the real consideration for the "rankings" is what's important. Since at the upper levels (HS and above) we know that they are used mainly for a quick snap shot of potentials-to-follow, then one must ask what is the purpose of ranking 12's to 14's.

IMO it's for the program officials, coaches, promoters etc., to justify their opinions of the kids to the parents. This provides the parents with a level of comfort that their intuitive sense of their son's abilities are not a parochial reaction to watching them in their cute uniforms, but rather an extension of a wider opinion based upon expert analysis.

In the short of it, the business marketing model it requires creating a need. In the ranking of the players it creates the need to measure that value based upon "real" expereince. Thus you have the rankings as an expression of the that exercise.

IMO it does no harm to the children to give them a true sense of their value to a team based upon the ranking of their value to those who are watching them play. But I caution that with a caveat in that if those expressions are being generated through a narrow prism instead of a more panoramic view then what have you accomplished except to offer a piece as representative of the whole. It is false.

Look at all the programs, consider all the "best" players including those from LL, Babe Ruth, Pony, USSSA, USA Baseball, Roberto Clemente and others, then the rankings will have value and meaning. Otherwise you simply are setting up an elitist exercise that has no meaning whatsoever.

JMO

quote:

I would also disagree with your definition of accolade.

That doesn't surprise me.

quote:

All Star selection is clearly a "ranking" of players.

In your home town, in your league, at your tournament, it is...on a twelve year old stage.
But it is not the same "ranking" as Perfect Game.

And it is not the same ranking that happens in early June by major league baseball.
I believe the Perfect Game rankings and major league draft ranking (maybe the ultimate ranking, but then again, maybe not) are certainly more significant rankings than the 12 year old all star "ranking".

quote:

I think what most people are really objecting to is that BA is a national publication with national exposure]

I could be.

The stage for 12 year olds is 12 year old baseball, hometown/area league, and a national tournament.

The stage for 13-14 is 13-14 year old baseball, hometown/area league, and a national tournament.

The stage for 15-18 is 15-18 year old baseball, hometown/area league, a national tournament, and high school baseball and a hint of national exposure.

The stage for 18 and up is college baseball, minor leagues, and major league basball, and
whatever audience you can command.

As I tried to say, I have regretted the subtle and indirect pressure that I placed on my high school freshman..................

I don't believe the motivation provided by being able to read one's name listed as a twelve year old in national publication is necesssary.

But mine are 17 and 20 so it's really not an issue for me at all, anymore.

And yours, Callaway, is pre-high school, right?

Linear,

Albert Pujols was ranked in our top 20 and for quite awhile. Still not anywhere near high enough. In fact, it's fairly obvious he should have been #1, looking back.

A good friend, Dave Kariff (scout with the Cardinals) signed Albert for somewhere around $30,000. At the time there were some issues (not makeup related) that caused Pujols to drop in the draft.

Every scout in the midwest knew Albert Pujols had big ability and that includes us! Nobody would have predicted his amazing success, but then how do you predict that kind of success for anyone?

You can always find examples of those unranked guys who become Big League players. At the same time you can find tons of highly ranked players who become Big League players.

There are Big League stars who not only weren't ranked very high as high school players... They weren't drafted or drafted very low and become Big League stars.

So rankings will never be perfect and those drafting the players are never perfect. What does that say about those who do the rankings and those paying the money? It's all about how often you're right, knowing ahead of time that you won't be right in every single case.

I've been following this thread closely as I find it very interesting. A few thoughts that are nothing more than my personal opinions:

* I don't object, at all, to rankings. As PG mentioned, I have an older son who was ranked pretty high during his senior year in HS. I don't think it changed him personally at all, neither for better nor for worse. I DO think it helped generate attention from colleges and pro scouts, particularly from the college he ended up attending. Overall, for him, it was a good thing. And to me it happened at about the right time.

* I have no issue with all stars (other than the televising of it) and no issue with the natural "rankings" that go on amongst baseball players and their families in our community. I also have no problem with local newspaper coverage...actually I often write the articles for the local newspaper that are published several times a year. All communities need coverage of the accomplishments of their children. It is motivating and its great for grandma and grandpa and the scrapbooks.

* I do NOT like the idea of a national publication ranking 12/13/14 year olds. I don't need any such list to motivate my son or his very talented friends. Our local single-community team has won 2 state championships (thats a pretty big state by the way), come in 2nd in the U.S. Western Zone for Bronco baseball and qualified for the USSSA and Super Series national championships every year since they were 10 (We have chosen not to attend those national tournaments...our choice, no judgement about those who do ). They are motivated by the team across the field and pretty much that alone. I like that and its the way I personally want it to be for them right now.

I hope to take them to Arizona in a couple of years when they are 15 for the JO's and we'll let all this ranking stuff on a national scale begin then. But for now, they, their parents and I like very much where they are and the fact that they play for themselves only. That is plenty good enough for them for now.

FOOTNOTE: I saw Robert Stock play when he was 12 and there was no doubt about his talent then and he has certainly not disappointed in any way. So I am not complaining about the accuracy...I just cannot see any good reason for it.

Well said, justbaseball.

Did they stop in west palm beach and forget there was baseball in broward and dade county? I cant believe there is noone from broward or dade on this list. Some names i see on there are just out of nowhere as my sons team has played some of these kids, and while some are just okay players BA has them listed as all-stars. Oh well i guess its just something for the parents to brag about.

08 Catcher,

Sometimes it is just about being in the right place at the right time. Our team had a player chosen for the USA youth team tryouts. He happened to have a very good game when the scouts were in attendance looking at a opposing teams player, thus the invitation. It would be highly debatable whether he was the best pitcher on our team, but he was in the right place at the right time.

I have a 12u ballplayer so I find this topic somewhat interesting. I don't really have a right vs. wrong opinion concerning it.

From my limited exposure to the subject it appears there is a core group of "elite teams" that pretty much show up at all the so-called big time tournaments. Most of these boys mentioned in this post play with these core teams or are within that group of boys that are flown in from around the country to play with various teams when needed for a tournament. Therefore within that group it is not that difficult to pick the boys they think are the best.

The above paragraph is just my speculation and could totally be out in left field.

bkekcs

You have a keen sense of observation of the obvious.

There is no way that all the best players at 12-14yo are included in the BA list and rankings. However they try to do a good job with those families that want to help their son's using the route of BA members and PG type tournaments. Since BA is one of the premier publications it is very helpful if your son makes their rankings list.

We never went that route with our son, but there are a lot of players that are fine ballplayers that don't go through the BA or PG route. A lot of the players on my son's teams that he has played for over the years have never heard of BA and PG tournaments. But most all made it to college level ball.

If your son has the "goods" he will be discovered and "offered" a venue to play ball...of that I'm certain. Playing time is what's critcal for the 12-14yo level, and rankings are not very high on the list in comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by Dooer:
08 Catcher,

Sometimes it is just about being in the right place at the right time. Our team had a player chosen for the USA youth team tryouts. He happened to have a very good game when the scouts were in attendance looking at a opposing teams player, thus the invitation. It would be highly debatable whether he was the best pitcher on our team, but he was in the right place at the right time.

I had a team in the JO in Florida, we were the #2 seed playing the #1 seed after the first 4 games. Two scouts were at this game, once they found out they were all just out of their freshman year of HS they left.

quote:

once they found out they were all just out of their freshman year of HS they left.

...to check out the 12 year olds, I'm sure.