Baseball Comparisons to Lebron James

Personally i do not think you can compare baseball players to basketball players or even hockey players--different sports and different types of athletes

I also think that many kids are done an injustice by being thrust into the majors so young--for every Lebron how many try and fail?

I hope the Heyward kid holds up under the bright lights

Agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Personally i do not think you can compare baseball players to basketball players or even hockey players--different sports and different types of athletes

I wonder about that as well. It seems like baseball requires the most skill but maybe I am biased in my thinking. Hockey looks like it requires lots of skill. Basketball and football seem like they require more physicality but it would be hard to argue that there are not skill players in those sports as well.

I agree that baseball and basketball players can't be compared. I actually think nearly all baseball players have to make a bigger mental adjustment, where basketball players rely mostly on their talent and size.

That said, many of the very best NBA players came straight out of high school straight to the NBA.

Lebron James is an athletic freak of nature! No athlete his size should be able to do what he can do.

The one person that comes to my mind when you think about baseball players that went from high school to the majors is Catfish Hunter. I do not recall how he did in his first year but he was elected to the all star team in 1966 and pitched a perfect game in 1968, three years after going to MLB.

Here is a link to others that went straight into MLB from HS. The list shows 7 other hall of fame players that were drafted out of HS. I did not recall until I just saw this list that Sandy Koufax is also on this list.

My bad, I just noticed the list includes college players, but still went straight to the majors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...to_the_major_leagues

Al Kaline, one of the truly great players...who so often is overlooked in any discussion about HOF'ers and great players.
Just did his job everyday and better than most, but under the radar of Clemente, Mays, Mantle, Snider, Aaron and a few others.
What a good player, just about from his first day on a ML field.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Al Kaline, one of the truly great players...who so often is overlooked in any discussion about HOF'ers and great players.
Just did his job everyday and better than most, but under the radar of Clemente, Mays, Mantle, Snider, Aaron and a few others.
What a good player, just about from his first day on a ML field.

You beat me to that point. After AL-08 posted that list, I felt bad for not mentioning him.

54 out of the 84 players listed, 64.3%, started between 1953 and 1957. That's a five year period out of almost 100 years that this seemed to be the trend.

Anybody have any clue as to why that time frame makes up such a large portion of the list?

It was based on the MLB rules in effect at that time as to the amount of the bonus paid. It was a way for MLB to control bonuses.
I am not sure of the exact number but if the team paid a bonus that exceeded the amount set by MLB/the Commissioner(for some reason $5,000 for a part of that time sticks in my mind) the player needed to be kept on the MLB roster.
The rule was changed sometime in late 50's or early 60's, perhaps with the implementation of the draft.

I think the MLB player who most resembled Lebron would have to have been Bo Jackson.

fillsfan,
One of the reasons may have been because most of the players that were younger went into the military during WWII and the Korean war. By the time they can out they were older and the major leagues were expanding and needed players.
Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
I think the MLB player who most resembled Lebron would have to have been Bo Jackson.

Excellent point! Bo was a college player and later a minor league player. Athletically, the argument can be made imho.

Here is another theory on fillsfan's questions. I am sure the population started to increase dramatically after WWII. Baseball was also still the most popular sport in terms of participation. Increasing population with increasing partcipation may have explained some of it (greater number of great athletes playing baseball versus some other sport) but then again, I could be wrong

The reason so many went directly into the Majors from high school in the mid fifties was becaause of the baby bonus rule of the mid fifties where if a player was given a bonus of over $4000, the player had to stay with the Major league club for the first two years. This rule impacted Koufax, Killebrew, Kaline and many others who flopped because they got virtually no playing time for two years when they should have been in the minors. The rule was later recinded for this very reason.

Tony Conigliaro hit 24 HRs at age 19 in 1964 and led the league in HRs with 32 at age 20 in 1965.
Eddie Mathews hit 25 Hrs at age 20 in 1952 and 47 at age 21 in 1953.
Mel Ott was in the majors at age 17 and hit one Hr. At age 19 in 1928 he hit 18 HRs and batted .322. In 1929 at age 20 he hit 42 HRs which tied the National League record of that time until the last day of the season Chuck Klein hit his 43.
Al Kaline and Ty Cobb won batting titles at age 20.

You can prove that the skill level in the Major Leagues is getting higher and higher as the decades go by with some points from this very discussion.

In the 1890 to 1910 era, it was very common for teenagers to make an impact in the majors. By the the 1920-1940 era there were not as many but several stars or superstars made contributions in their teens such as Ott, Foxx, Cavarretta, Feller, as well as twenty year olds like Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio having immediate superstar seasons.

World War II led to a new influx of teenagers due to the manpower situation but very few became superstars. Since, except for the brief bonus rule years of the mid-fifties the number of teenagers in the Majors, let alone STAR teenagers has decline decade by decade. I feel that the level of play has gotten higher and generally it takes a minor leaguer at least a 1000 ABs to be ready to hit in the Show except for special kids. Pitchers are a slightly different case perhaps.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
You can prove that the skill level in the Major Leagues is getting higher and higher as the decades go by with some points from this very discussion.

In the 1890 to 1910 era, it was very common for teenagers to make an impact in the majors. By the the 1920-1940 era there were not as many but several stars or superstars made contributions in their teens such as Ott, Foxx, Cavarretta, Feller, as well as twenty year olds like Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio having immediate superstar seasons.

World War II led to a new influx of teenagers due to the manpower situation but very few became superstars. Since, except for the brief bonus rule years of the mid-fifties the number of teenagers in the Majors, let alone STAR teenagers has decline decade by decade. I feel that the level of play has gotten higher and generally it takes a minor leaguer at least a 1000 ABs to be ready to hit in the Show except for special kids. Pitchers are a slightly different case perhaps.

Three bagger - I have always enjoyed your posts and knowledge of the game! Question - Isn't it possible that the rise of football and basketball has robbed the sport of some of its young stars? I mean for lack of a better example, what if LeBron James had devoted his life to baseball? Obviously we will never know that answer but it is intriguing to wonder. I don't believe it is fair to judge things on Michael Jordan's experiences either. Again, I believe if he would have dedicated his career to baseball, he would have been something special. Interesting discussion!

Clevelanddad, I heard he tried out but couldn't hit a curve ball. Ha ha.

Before LeBron James gets mentioned in any breath, let him win a championship or two before making him the messiah. So far, he's proven he can't win the big one. The great ones do.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Before LeBron James gets mentioned in any breath, let him win a championship or two before making him the messiah. So far, he's proven he can't win the big one. The great ones do.

If you cannot tell he is a great one, then you do not understand sports imho. In 2007, he led his team to the NBA finals with a bucket of bolts for teammates. His starting supporting cast was Larry Hughes, Zydrunis Ilgauskus, Sasha Pavlovic, and Drew Gooden. The 6th man was Anderson Varajao. I don't see any Scotty Pippen's or Kareem Abdul Jabar's or James Worthies, or Kevin McHale's or Robert Parrish's in that lineup. Michael did not win one until his 7th year in the NBA. He also played three years in college. This is LeBron's 7th year in the NBA without any prior college experience. He is 25 years old with two MVP's (yes he will win it this year again), 2 all star MVP's, first team NBA all defense, 6 time first team All-Star, gold medal winner, and the NBA's all time leading scorer, rebounder, and assist guy for someone his age. He invented the chase-down block and voted as the fastest player in the NBA. He has a 44 or 46 inch vertical leap and has hardly ever been injured. He typically leads the NBA in minutes played. Other than that he is not very good.

I'm sure he's capable of winning the big one but has yet to do it. There's no questioning his physical skills. He's a specimen. The NBA is a star driven league and the best of the best win NBA titles. LeBron James should be one of them but he's not yet.

I've been around sports my whole life. I understand them well.

PG, you have a PM

Thanks ClevelandDad. I'm glad this site has a variety of baseball discussion such as the subject on this thread. While I'm always interested in reading posts concerning High School and College ball which are what this site is all about, and of course concern my own sons, I'm always ready to discuss something historical or statistical about baseball.

As far as other sports impacting baseball, I would say certainly this has happened since the 1950's as many of the great athletes have gone to other sports. I just don't think this has had a lot of impact on the amount of teenage stars in the Majors as that was already in decline as the Major League game itself matured. I'm not sure if Michael Jordan would have become a star or not because he had such a huge strike zone and there is very little precedent for anyone 6'8" being a good hitter in the Majors although I believe Frank Howard was listed at 6'7".

Many people believe Bo Jackson was the greatest athlete to ever play in the Major Leagues and while they have a good argument, if you know baseball history, you know Jim Thorpe, voted the greatest athlete of the first half centuy in the 1900's, decathelon winner in the Olympics, pro football Hall of Famer, also played several years in the 1910's. In the context of his time, he was a greater athlete than Bo Jackson.

I wonder where Dave Winfield would've ranked as far as multi-sport pro athletes go. He did get drafted in three sports by four teams and belongs to two different sport hall of fames. Bo Jackson probably the most successful I've seen.

Actually there has been many, many two professional sport athletes that played major league ball:

Dick Groat NL MVP and pro basketball
George Halas pro football Hall of Fame and baseball
Ernie Nevers pro football Hall of Fame and baseball
Danny Ainge basketball and baseball
Vic Janowitz(spelling)1950's Heismann trophy winner, pro football and baseball
Gene Conley pro basketball and baseball
Dave Debussiere(spelling) pro basketball and baseball
Bo Jackson, Jim Thorpe, Deion Sanders, Brian Jordan are others who played two major league sports. There are also some fringe guys who did both in the 1930's and 1940's.



John Elway and Sammy Baugh both played in the Minor Leagues

Jackie Robinson for sure. He was a 3 sport athlete at too right?

He was in college but I was refering only to guys that played at the professional Major league level in both sports.

Ron Reed played two years in the NBA for Detroit before deciding to focus on baseball (Braves, Cardinals, Phillies, White Sox).

Chuck Connors (The Rifleman) played for the Celtics, Dodgers and Cubs. He was also drafted by the Bears.

multisport athletes

Right RJM, I had forgotten those two. Still at work trying to think of more guys off the top of my head. Should of remembered old Chuck Connors because I recently read a small biographical.

Almost forgot Bob Gibson played for the Harlem Globetrotters for one season.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Almost forgot Bob Gibson played for the Harlem Globetrotters for one season.

A little bit of trivia.....

Who is the first to play in two NFL Super bowls
and play in the big leagues (MLB)?

Hint: It was not Deione Sanders!

Maybe a yellow Lamborghini Diablo for the winner.
(And should you not know what that is, don't play)

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Before LeBron James gets mentioned in any breath, let him win a championship or two before making him the messiah. So far, he's proven he can't win the big one. The great ones do.

zombywoof - you made a great point and my apologies for taking issue with it.

I am shocked at how badly LeBron emotionally checked out in this series. Me and lots of people from Cleveland believe he already knows he was leaving and he no longer wanted to commit to his team. He says he is the leader but that was the last thing he showed in this series. Emotionally detached is not something I would ever expect to see from him and I have seen most of his games including high school.

We are losers here in Cleveland. Our failures are well-known from burning rivers to defaults. Our sports miseries are labeled including red-right 88 (mvp Brian Sipe interception to the Raiders), the Drive (John Elway 1st and 98), The Fumble (Ernest Byner against the Broncos), and the Shot (Michael Jordon over Craig Ehlo). We also were three outs away from winning the World Series in 97 against the expansion Marlins but Jose Mesa couldn't close the door. We have not won a sports championship (Browns) since 1964 and everyone thought this was our year. Now we have a new one to add to the list. I'll call it "The Departure." Remember you heard it here first

Just think a minute here:

The Celtics won with a TEAM EFFORT

Jordan won with a TEAM around him and a great coach

Kobe wins with a great team around him and a great coach

The NY KNicks of Willis Reed etc won because of a team and a great coach

Lebron has no help--he has 29 pts, 19 rebounds and 10 assists and they say he stunk- the Celtics are just too deep for them--the Cavs have no bench, no depth

I do not see him going to NY because they have less depth than the Cavs--I like him going to the Bulls

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Just think a minute here:

The Celtics won with a TEAM EFFORT

Jordan won with a TEAM around him and a great coach

Kobe wins with a great team around him and a great coach

The NY KNicks of Willis Reed etc won because of a team and a great coach

Lebron has no help--he has 29 pts, 19 rebounds and 10 assists and they say he stunk- the Celtics are just too deep for them--the Cavs have no bench, no depth

I do not see him going to NY because they have less depth than the Cavs--I like him going to the Bulls

There are no Scottie Pippen's on the Cavs but he does have some talent behind him. You forgot to mention the 9 turnovers TR - he was one shy of a quadruple double. Look, I am not upset about poor shooting performances or losing to the Celtics who are the better team. Quitting on your team is what it looked like to me and that I cannot forgive. Again, I have seen 98% of all his games and I have never seen him lay down like that. I think he knows he's gone and he played like it.

I'd have to say that he reminds me most of the pre-2009 A-Rod.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Before LeBron James gets mentioned in any breath, let him win a championship or two before making him the messiah. So far, he's proven he can't win the big one. The great ones do.

Number 23 is MVP. But he can't be The King without a ring.

quote:

Lebron has no help

Not true. The Cavs have some legitimate players. They had the best record in the NBA. What the Cavs don't have is the supporting role star. The Celtics have three. It's Pierce's team with Garnett, Allen and Rondo as supporting stars. Any of the four can light it up and be the star on any given night.

Don't underestimate the Celtics if they stay healthy. They jumped out to a huge lead in their division early in the season. If the Atlantic Division were an election the Celtics were projected winners by lunch. From early in the season any time Pierce, Garnett or Allen got as much as a hangnail they sat and rested. Rivers traded home court advantage for healthly and rested older players at the end of the season.

My crystal ball:

I'm New York Knicks management. I call Lebron. I tell him he can be the one to lead the Knicks back to the glory days of Clyde the Glide and Willis Reed. I tell him Jeter owns New York, but he's getting older and Lebron can own the town, the greatest city in the world (NY hype) for years. I tell him I have a coach in mind.

I call Phil Jackson. I remind him of the Frazier and Reed glory days of the 70's when he was a valuable role player on the team. I tell him he needs to come home and put the final stamp on his coaching greatness (Auerbach is rolling in his grave) in the city where he won as a player with the newest best player in the NBA.

Note: The Knicks are 37M under the cap. They've been sitting on this moment for a year.

I was really hoping LeBron would repay Cleveland fans for their support over the years by giving something back even if he was planning to leave but he just didn't have the focus or drive in those last couple of games.

I honestly only caught a portion of the game, so I can't comment on whether I think Lebron checked out or not? However...27 pts, 19 boards, 10 assists, 3 stls, and a block doesn't seem like a player that checked out? Yes, he had 9 TO's, but even Magic had days like that in the 80's trying to make something happen for the Lakers. That tends to happen to players that handle the ball the majority of the time.

I agree with everyone, Lebron needs some help...he needs a Robin. He's on a very good team, but when the playoffs comes around it's impossible to go alone. BTW, I don't think the Knicks is the answer either, unless they plan on signing additional help?
I hope he resigns with Cleveland, and the Cav's go out and pick up some help for him...but time will only tell.

I personally am hoping for another Laker/Celtics series. There is nothing like a little traditional East Coast versus West Coast Fun!

The Bulls have the $$$ and the Robin.

quote:

Originally posted by Holden Caulfield:
The Bulls have the $$$ and the Robin.

I can't imagine LeBron going to Chicago and for his entire career hearing he couldn't do what Michael did .... win six championships. What Lebron needs in his life is less yes men and someone to tell him the emperor has no clothes (or an NBA title).

Who's to say he wouldn't?

The only way he hears that in Chicago is if he's a bust. If he ends up a bust in NY, do you think they'll be any kinder to him???

If he wants to hide and avoid that kind of criticism, stay in Cleveland. But I doubt he will

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Note: The Knicks are 37M under the cap. They've been sitting on this moment for a year.

The Knicks have been cutting loose bad contracts since Donnie Walsh signed on two years ago. They have been positioning themselves for July 2010 since April 2008. That was the only way for them to get to this position. For years (since Ewing left), the Knicks have been badly mismanaged and run into the ground by Isiah Thomas (what organization hasn't Thomas ran into the ground as an exec) and the only way out was to tank a few seasons and dump bad contracts.

Now that the time is here, Donnie Walsh's job is to sign LeBron James.

His job has to be on the line for his signing.

quote:

Who's to say he wouldn't?

It's not that easy to assemble the kind of talent to win six championships. I'd call it an extreme longshot. Aside from talent there has to be a lack of equal competition. If he wins one championship in New York he's a hero for bringing the franchise back.

The Celtics won more than six in the Russell era. But the 13th pitch in the draft was the second round. It was easier to accummulate talent. The Celtics and Lakers in the 80's had more talent than Jordan's Bulls teams. But they would beat each other. Jordan's Bulls didn't win anything until the Magic, Bird, Isiah Thomas era was over. Even Kobe can't win six.

Lebron might win a championship in his lifetime just on his talent. But the problem with acheiving true greatness will be no one dares push him and upset him. He's surrounded by yes men including the Cav's organization. He's been surrounded by yes men since he was a teen. He may not achieve the true greatness of a champion. He may retire a great individual player like Dominique Wilkins unless he gets a coach who tells him the way it is instead deferring to him.

There may even be some behind the scenes pressure by the league to get a true marque(spelling) player like Lebron to one of the flagship franchises such as the Knicks.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
There may even be some behind the scenes pressure by the league to get a true marque(spelling) player like Lebron to one of the flagship franchises such as the Knicks.

Good point. I fear this as well.

If LeBron would have given it his all and not emotionally checked out the last two games, I would have still supported him and understood his decision to leave. Now however, I have a low opinion of him - unless he comes back of course

LeBrons final game was not a checkout--9 turn overs can happen when you try to do much--do you think Jordan would have won without Rodman,Pippen, et al?

Look at Boston today---oneguy won't do it

quote:

LeBron's final game was not a checkout

A lot of people think he checked out in the final minutes. They also think he didn't have the 4th quarter of a true champion.

Jordan didn't win with Pippen and other solid talent until the Celtics, Lakers and Piston's run was over. James isn't playing with dogmeat for teammates. He has some talented teammates who also didn't show up. It's James job as The King to lead and make teammates better players. It didn't happen in the playoffs.

I think part of it is that he had a lot on his mind and sometimes that can distract even the greatest athletes. This is no small decision when you know a lot of people will be affected. I think LeBron does want to be liked by people. The money is going to be there no matter where he end up. Maybe this is the difference between he and Jordan as MJ was truthfully pretty callous in his dealings with others and maybe that's what made him the player that he was.

I don't think it was just Lebron that checked out of the game the last few minutes...heck, they were within 12 points and not trying to put Boston on the line to kill the clock. IMO, the coach checked out and it was a trickle down effect down the line.

quote:

I think part of it is that he had a lot on his mind and sometimes that can distract even the greatest athletes.

With all of his sideline business adventures there are those who have said he's been more focused on chasing Washington's and Lincoln's than Pierce's and Kobe's.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
There may even be some behind the scenes pressure by the league to get a true marque(spelling) player like Lebron to one of the flagship franchises such as the Knicks.

No doubt about that. The NBA is about stars and marquee players and James would be the perfect fit in NY. The Knicks have to get this done and there'll be a lot of people in NY selling it to him.

I would be very surprised if James don't sign with NY. He don't need convincing to come here. He knows how big a star he will be in NY. He's a big Yankees fan and going to the Knicks, he'll be part of the NY athlete scene and at the same time, will make people pay attention to the Knicks again.

quote:

With all of his sideline business adventures there are those who have said he's been more focused on chasing Washington's and Lincoln's than Pierce's and Kobe's.

Money is the last thing he has to worry about.
I only see an amazing athlete giving it everything he has. Seems like the Celtics aren't getting enough credit for winning the series.

Also I'm "guessing" that Lebron has some type of ulner nerve problem. The description of numbness (like hitting your crazy bone) sounds like a ulner nerve issue. This type injury can be corrected but will stop a baseball pitcher. I would imagine it wouldn't stop a basketball player from playing, but could affect performance, especially in shooting and ball handling.

I was a big Michael Jordan fan, but if it's only about winning championships, Bill Russell won 5 more than Jordan. If the best individual player was determined by championships the list would look like this...

1 - Bill Russell
2 - Sam Jones
3 - John Havlicek
4 - Ton Heinsohn
5 - KC Jones
6 - Tom Sanders
7 - Frank Ramsey
Maybe Robert Horry should be considered, he won 6 championships with three different teams.

I think we should consider how many championships have been won by age 25. For those comparing Michael Jordan was 28 years old when he won his first championship. That was Jordan's 7th year in the NBA!

Jordan didn't win with Pippen and other solid talent until the Celtics, Lakers and Piston's run was over. .[/QUOTE]


As I recall, it was Jordan, Pippin et al who ended both the Pistons' run and Magic's.

The key is the teams mentioned in the "runs" were teams that were deep---not one player teams---I recall watching Reggie Miller ( one of my alltime favorite hoopsters) and MJ come to the Garden and score 40 to 50 points and the team went home with a huge L

MJ got a team around him and Phil Jackson as a coach and they won--and do not discount Rodman's
contributions--all he had to do was rebound and make the outlet pass--if he got points it was a bonus

The Celtics with Russell were a "team personified"---they were a unit---so were the knicks and their coaches taught that

Today it is a "me me " game !!!!

quote:

As I recall, it was Jordan, Pippin et al who ended both the Pistons' run and Magic's.

After their prime was done. Until then the Celtics and Pistons made a habit of sending Jordan and the Bulls home.

quote:

Today it is a "me me " game !!!!

Watch the Celtics play. It's a different star every game. They're one of the best pick and roll and passing teams in the NBA. The interesting thing is watching a transition from The Big Three which was really Pierce's team, to Rondo's team. Rondo is now the straw that stirs the drink.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

With all of his sideline business adventures there are those who have said he's been more focused on chasing Washington's and Lincoln's than Pierce's and Kobe's.

I was a big Michael Jordan fan, but if it's only about winning championships, Bill Russell won 5 more than Jordan. If the best individual player was determined by championships the list would look like this...

1 - Bill Russell
2 - Sam Jones
3 - John Havlicek
4 - Ton Heinsohn
5 - KC Jones
6 - Tom Sanders
7 - Frank Ramsey
Maybe Robert Horry should be considered, he won 6 championships with three different teams.

Bill Russell was an amazing player although I never remember seeing him play and have only seen clips in black and white newsreal. I think I saw a stat the other day that said Russell's career playoff rebounding average was 25!!! Imagine having a guy on your team who allowed no easy looks at the basket and pulled down 25 rebounds every night in the playoffs - how many games do you think you would lose?

Robert Horry a great player? Don't think so but he had to be awfully good to collect that number of rings.

Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts - stiffs because they didn't win titles? Don't think so. Would you take Jeff Hostettler over any of those guys? Don't think so.

Here is a guy who should be on the list - Yogi Berra - 10 rings. I know Yogi does not get his just due with all the other greats on the Yankees but he was right in the middle of it. A great player.

Russell could have scored twenty-plus a game if it was needed. Those Celtics teams had six or seven players who could have put up twenty-plus a game. They played completely unselfish ball.

I think KOBE made a huge statement to LeBron last nite---

RJM

You make my ppoint for me---the teams that win with superstars have a great supporting cast--you do not win with one superstar palyer

quote:

You make my point for me---the teams that win with superstars have a great supporting cast--you do not win with one superstar player

Please don't compare the 50's-60's Celtics with the Cavs. It's one of sports great dynasties. There isn't a roster in the history of basketball that can match up. Seven players from the '62 team are in the Hall of Fame.

That's not a garbage supporting cast on the Cav's roster. Jamison came to the Cav's as a career twenty point scorer. Williams had become a fifteen point scorer and a very good passer. Shaq is still a rebounding force when he's in the game. While not an agile defender adnymore he takes up a lot of space. The rest of the rotation is a decent supporting cast. What the Cav's lack is the second supporting star. Very soon they may be lacking a superstar.

What happened is the Celtics stifled them defensively. When healthy the Celtics may be the best team in the east. Rivers was smart to sacrifice homecourt for rest and health. Now the key is to bang and avoid injuries for two more series.

RJM

I am not comparing--just the simple fact that all the previous teams did not win with ONE PLAYER---they won with a team

This year the Celtics may surprise--they are aging but now healthy---I say look out