Baseball Demands and STEM Career Goals

I don't think D1 sports and STEM field gel well together. No personal experience here, but I went to a seminar by a local athletic recruiting consultant. He told the audience that if they plan to play D1 sports, they'd better be majoring in "Communications" or "Government". According to him, some D1 coaches will be upfront with you. They'll ask you what you want to major in. If you say "Engineering" or "Chemistry", sorry, we don't want you.

For reference, my son graduated with a degree in engineering from one of the top D3 baseball programs in the country. I know fenway will chime in here as his son graduated from an Ivy, also with an engineering degree.

We discovered in the recruiting process that only a few D1 programs are compatible with a STEM degree, because labs are typically in the afternoon they conflict with baseball practices and games. We found that Ivy's, some Patriot league teams, plus with a few D1 outliers like Stanford, it is possible. The best solution IMO will be a D3 that allows for some flexibility with practice schedules. Regardless of the school it is a lot easier if the player is a pitcher. 

It can be done but the player must have an extreme level of focus and discipline, as there will be many days and evenings where a STEM major will be in the lab, studying, or working on projects where his teammates will be out doing something fun. If the program is used to it the coach will also pare up STEM players in rooms when they travel. 

Like I said fenway will likely chime in here shortly and we'll be happy to answer any other specific questions.

My advice would be to do A LOT of research on the topic, school and situation.  The majors you mentioned are very demanding and very competitive.  This topic has been discussed before on this board, so you can start your research there by hitting the search button on the title bar.  My advice would be to pay particular attention to the number of Spring games, off-season demands including Fall and summer baseball, travel schedule, and coaches perspective.  Also I think it is important to understand your son and his life goals.  My son was willing to give up baseball if he needed to focus on engineering, although it never came to that.  Your mileage may vary and every situation is different.  It took us a long time to find the right situation, and there was no easy  button.

As BOF said it can be done, but your son needs to go into this eyes wide open and have a clear understanding what he is signing up for.  As always, JMO.

Feel free to ask away. 

Agree with the above replies.

"I'm looking for personal anecdotes about your own sons experiences. Did the realities of baseball scuttle academics, vice versa, or was an acceptable balance struck? What compromises were needed to strike the balance? Which programs (names would be great) did you find to foster or at least accept and work with SA that wanted to pursue these disciplines?"

S matriculated thinking Chem Eng. That lasted until he unpacked his boxes - no one from his class of 7 majored in STEM; the majority majored in economics. Econ at his school is heavily math and data based and no slack was cut to the athletes. His coach understood the academic pressures and ALSO accepted, understood and recognized that baseball was the tail and the real world was the dog and the dog wags the tail. For example, all practices during mid-terms were voluntary (and this was during the spring season); pitchers would show up, throw a bp and head off to study. Batters would get their work in AROUND their study schedule.  Baseball suffers, but the players futures didn't.

In subsequent years, a few players here and there majored in engineering. A few matriculated with perfect scores - so we're talking top tier student and talented baseball players - and they have managed it; but the majority continue to head to Econ.

For the (few) players with LEGIT pro aspirations, they did go pro. (As an aside, currently Princeton [i believe] has more pitchers on MLB rosters compared to all other colleges - 4 - so a path to proball doesn't need to be sacrificed to focus on academics.)

The compromise we struck was grades: didn't cut him any slack in HS (because those grades were used as leverage to get into the school), but did cut him lots of slack in college as he was competing not only against the best HS students who were now concentrated at his school, he was dealing with professors in hard classes whose native language was not English, he required a robust social life (making connections means lots of socializing), he needed to spread his wings (like go to art exhibits, plays, etc.).

Lowering our expectations took a semester or two, but certainly reduced the stress levels. Nevertheless, we kept our parental finger on the academic pulse, and occasionally made sure he understood that we hadn't died, we simply understood more realistically what his life was like.

Nevertheless, his grades were decent and he finished dead in the middle of his class.

Thanks Goose, and others... Son is a pitcher, which should help... a little.

i will dig into some old posts on this subject.  thanks to all for your continued interest and help.

I asked a small D1 recruiting coordinator how accommodating they would be to my son who wants to major in physics. He said it depends on how hard he throws lol. I asked what if he's not a pitcher and he said he should consider a different major. 

cluelessDad2019 posted:

Thanks Goose, and others... Son is a pitcher, which should help... a little.

i will dig into some old posts on this subject.  thanks to all for your continued interest and help.

Being a pitcher definitely helped our situation.  My son admitted he would not have been able to do what he did as a position player.  When my son was a freshmen, he knew a few upper classmen engineers who were also pitchers.  In 4 years, he only played with one position player who graduated with an engineering degree.  I know BOF's son was a pitcher as well.   Everybody is different but those are pretty good data points.

Scotty83 posted:

I asked a small D1 recruiting coordinator how accommodating they would be to my son who wants to major in physics. He said it depends on how hard he throws lol. I asked what if he's not a pitcher and he said he should consider a different major. 

Years ago, we got similar responses from recruiting coaches of mid-major and major D1 programs.   We appreciated their honesty.

cluelessDad2019 posted:

Thanks Goose, and others... Son is a pitcher, which should help... a little.

i will dig into some old posts on this subject.  thanks to all for your continued interest and help.

As I have posted before, my son attended an ACC program and he was discouraged from majoring in any type of  engineering programs.  

You might want to read over rosters of D1 programs with engineering, that will tell you a lot about the athletic expectations.

My son started as an engineering student at the same school as BOF's son. He lasted one semester before changing to a Business major. He wanted to play baseball and succeed. He knew that if he was going to pursue an  engineering degree that something would have to give. We were told at the time (I don't know if it is still true) that about 120 students (out of 2,600 total) start as engineering majors; in the end they graduate 20-30 engineering students a year.

I will add this.

At S's school, the HC treats the players as men. Each player could select whichever academic path tickled his heart, study in whichever way each choose, play summer ball or not play summer ball, hang out in the locker room or not, etc.  The kids made some big mistakes; BUT those mistakes were made as freshmen (usually involving alchohal), punished appropriately, and life moved on.  This system allowed each player to choose a major that allowed them to scratch their intellect while allowing a robust social life and the rest of the time went to baseball. That meant that baseball had different priorities in each player's life (there was never the collective push to the CWS you see in big time programs; goals were much more modest and realistic).  BUT I don't think it was the school with this attitude - it was the HC. So, I guess I am saying to really pay attention to coaches - they make the program's philosophy. Some coaches leave their schools; some coaches are lifers; make sure you understand which coach your S is thinking about.

During my son's time there, every kid remained eligible, every kid spent the summer either in an internship or playing ball, every kid had a fine job (all except one out of the roughly 40 kids I crossed paths with) before their last semester, every kid who wasn't drafted as a junior graduated in four years - every drafted junior got their degree within two years.

The HCs proudest moments came when a prospective employer would call to get the "scoop" on a kid who had interviewed - and the kid then walk out with a job offer.

But again, the coach sets the tone (within the framework of the school of course). 

First depending on the program and school, most STEM programs lose about 50% in year 1, in year 2 they lose another 20% and typically graduate about 25% of the students that start the program, so there is nothing unusual about kids dropping out. For baseball players it IS a lot easier for pitchers, however my son was a two way for the first couple of years and was playing and making decent grades. That said he told me there is no way he could have competed in both  school and baseball at most D1's. As TPM pointed out do some roster reviews, no matter which school you are looking at for confirmation.     

You should talk to the School.  I was told that some colleges will tell you that you can not do both and to pick one or the other.  Their reasoning was that you will not be able to succeed at both at the same time, give then commitment that both demand and deserve.

I'll echo what BOF said about the Patriot League.  I was able to maintain a Math major/CS minor, with evening CS labs, while playing.

However, I transferred to an ACC school my junior year, walked on, and started fall practice.  It was no longer than a week before I realized I had to make a decision - play baseball or graduate.  It was a tough life decision, but I realistically evaluated my future and accepted that I would most likely not be playing competitively beyond college.  The academic level of achievement I wanted for myself was not compatible with the demands of playing baseball to the level asked.

So give this idea some thought, which is really just re-wording what others have said - the recruiting process should be just as much YOU interviewing the program, not just a recruiter interviewing your son.  The coach will make sure it is a fit from his end, so it's your responsibility to make sure it is a fit from your end.  If professional baseball is a realistic option, then maybe the missed classes, and sacrificed academics are an acceptable trade-off to play some of the top-tier schools.  If not, then maybe a Patriot League/DII/DIII school is a better choice to satisfy the desire to play college ball but still walk out with a STEM degree, even if the SEC or ACC comes knocking.

For full transparency, this was in the early 2000's, so info may be 16 years outdated.

Best of luck.

Wow, this may be the most depressing thread on this forum I've seen in awhile!  It sounds like an Engineering major and college baseball do not work, at least at the vast majority of schools.  Yet there has to be a fair number of baseball players who gravitate to the schools with strong engineering programs for that reason.  I assume that means lot of disappointed kids who get there and realize the two do not mix and drop either baseball or engineering.  Since 99% of the baseball players will never make a living at baseball, hopefully they stick with a major like Engineering where they might have a job in the future.  Goodbye baseball then.

I hear the message about checking with coaches to see if they are flexible.  But nobody has commented yet on the teachers/professors at some of these programs.  Do they ever give consideration to students who are also athletes?    By consideration I mean things like allowing the student athlete to reschedule tests when games conflict, permitting make up homework, extra credit, etc.  I'm guessing they do if they play football or basketball but care less about students in other non-revenue sports.

P.S. I did hear a great explanation from Stanford at one of their camps about how they are able to maintain a 100% graduate rate for their baseball program.  They basically manage the player's schedule for them from 6 AM weights through bedtime and coordinate schedules with teachers to make sure their players are able to stay up with the homework, projects and tests.  Stanford is tough enough you don't need to be a STEM major to be challenged, but obviously they are committed to the student's well-being whereas many other programs are not.

I think some Engineering colleges must have figured out how to do baseball and STEM at the same time. I checked rosters of some very technical schools, such a MIT, WPI, RPI, Stevens, Caltech, etc. Most players on their rosters are majoring in Engineering or CS. Their practice and game schedule must have been designed to work around the demand of the STEM fields.

Anyone with insider info on what a baseball player's day look like on a Engineering school team?

Bogeyorpar posted:

............. No personal experience here, but I went to a seminar by a local athletic recruiting consultant. He told the audience that if they plan to play D1 sports, they'd better be majoring in "Communications" or "Government". 

This consultant is an idiot. 

Let me chime in, not as the OP of the question, but as a STEM professor at a competitive ACC school...

I don't get many (any) basketball or football students in my classes. I don't think I've ever gotten any men's baseball either, but I have had dozens of swimmers, track and field, gymnastics, softball, fencers, wrestlers, you name it. 

In these non-revenue sports (baseball is near break even here) there is no support system that interacts with me to help a student manage their complex lives. That said, however, students only need to show up with a standard form (from their coach) indicating they are a student athlete, and that they will be traveling such and such days. We, as faculty, are encouraged, but by no means required, to do what we can to accommodate these students. In my experience we do everything we can to help them out. Most recently I rescheduled a final exam for members of the band going to the final 4 tournament, so its not just for athletes. Having their band instructor or coach proctoring the exam is also an option, but I chose to delay it for them. This was my choice, other instructors might have taken another route.

The consistent message that I tell all student athletes is that if they are conscientious with me, then I will be as helpful and accommodating to them as I can be. It they show up the day before to tell me they will miss an exam because of travel I tell them they are sh*t out of luck. Grow up kid...

There are no doubt extreme views about this topic (and we have experience with both ends of the spectrum) but by and large your student athlete will experience an instructor who will most likely have policies that are not so different from mine. For me its not about cutting them slack, the performance expectations are the same, but its about accommodating their schedules and giving them the opportunity to do as well as they are able.

Bogeyorpar posted:

I think some Engineering colleges must have figured out how to do baseball and STEM at the same time. I checked rosters of some very technical schools, such a MIT, WPI, RPI, Stevens, Caltech, etc. Most players on their rosters are majoring in Engineering or CS. Their practice and game schedule must have been designed to work around the demand of the STEM fields.

Anyone with insider info on what a baseball player's day look like on a Engineering school team?

Backstop22 posted:

.......................

I hear the message about checking with coaches to see if they are flexible.  But nobody has commented yet on the teachers/professors at some of these programs.  Do they ever give consideration to students who are also athletes?    By consideration I mean things like allowing the student athlete to reschedule tests when games conflict, permitting make up homework, extra credit, etc.  I'm guessing they do if they play football or basketball but care less about students in other non-revenue sports.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the college figuring out how to work with athletes.  It is the athletes figuring out a way to work within their STEM major.  In my son's experience, professors didn't care two bits if you were an athlete or not.  Academically it was a level playing field for all majors.  No special treatment or tutoring for athletes. 

Academically, Stanford appears to he the highest ranked non ivy then Vanderbilt. Obviously the Dores are better this year. I'm sure there are a few STEM players who graduate and excel academically and athletically in D1 baseball. I think they are considerably in the minority though.

So my question is this: When folks come on here and talk about son's college baseball goals/scholarships but with expectations of the highest of academic standards as a caveat, (not just baseball since it is fleeting) where can they realistically expect to land and maintain both of those expectations?

I took a look at son's roster. It looks like they have 6 STEM majors including son who is studying chemical engineering. Best draft prospect on son's team (RHP) started Chem Engineering, then switched to econ, and now back to Chem engineering. One of the reasons son looked at Ivy and Patriot league was the possibility of studying what he wanted to and was of his interests. Schools in other conferences may not have been as strong academically, and the travel during middle of the week was tricky. At the IVY and most patriot teams, Monday is off day, which is when most labs occur. Son's labs are primarily athletes as they try to register for those slots. The key is to communicate to professors; son said three reasons for missing an assessment- death in family, game day (signed by coach), and I forget the third.

Son's first semester was tricky--going from a competitive HS to a top University where "everyone" is bright, and managing the baseball aspect. This semester is harder (took a lighter load) - in season. Not so much material and getting the work done, but make-ups for classes missed (trusting a good notetaker). I agree that STEM is not for everyone and it takes a disciplined student to balance both. Son is thinking of taking a summer course around his baseball (which is possible) to lessen another Spring semester.

So the challenge for a kid considering a STEM major while playing baseball is figuring out where they might be able to accomplish it if they are willing to commit to what it takes.  CluelessDad seems like he is very reasonable in what he expects of a student athlete and recognizes they are going to need some accommodation by the nature of their athletic competition.  But it is not like a high school student considering any particular school is going to have access to figuring out which schools have reasonable teachers/professors like CD and which do not.  I checked a number of baseball teams rosters and few if any of them note the player's major.  So that is not an option as a way to see if a kid can do both.

My 2017 wants to major in Engineering and now I wonder if it would hurt him in recruiting if he mentions that as his major.  This thread certainly has me thinking that way.  He has pretty high test scores, but maybe not indicating a major would be safer if they think he could not do both Engineering and play baseball.

Below, with a few modifications, is my post from the last time this topic came up, around 2 years ago.  

I've been through this as the parent of a son who played four years of baseball in the ACC while majoring in Mechanical Engineering, and a daughter who rowed for 2.5 years while double majoring in Philosophy and Biology and who is now in medical school.

From what I have seen, there are 3 factors that may determine whether your son or daughter can handle engineering, pre-med, or other STEM major while playing a sport:  (1) How good a student he/she is.  Some kids are very bright, but never learn how to study in HS.  This will have to change quickly.  (2)  Determination/Commitment.  A determined kid can overcome all sorts of obstacles.  (3)  Raw intelligence.  IQ points make everything easier.

My son is very bright, but only a fair student.  He never really cared about grades.  They just came easily in HS.  This will not happen with an engineering major, no matter how smart you are.  In college, son spent a lot of late nights studying, but he didn't miss any football games or many parties.   His final GPA was a little under 3.0.   

At son's school there was NO accommodation for engineering or other STEM majors.  NCAA baseball players are supposed to have one day a week off, usually Mondays.  Son was expected to do as many labs as possible on Mondays.  If he couldn't do them on Mondays, he was expected to do them early on Tuesday or Wednesdays.  This was not a big problem at his school, but it is at others that have late afternoon or night labs.  He was a little late for a few practices, but that was no big deal.  If he had a game, he was expected to miss the lab. 

 Someone commented that STEM majors may be easier for pitchers.  Not necessarily.  This was certainly NOT the case at son's school.  Pitchers were generally expected to be at the field before position players.  A lot depends on how ambitious and/or anal the pitching (or position) coach is.  Son was a pitcher.  Sometimes he would pitch on the weekends, but he was still expected to travel to midweek games, even though there was no chance he was going to play.  I once suggested that he ask his coach if he could skip a Wednesday trip to study for a test on Thursday.  He made it clear that there was no way he was going to ask, and no way the coach would agree. 

When son was being recruited we asked all the right questions.  One thing we asked was what happens if the team leaves early Thursday morning for a road trip, but son has a test on Thursday or Friday.  The school's academic advisor gave us this story about how in the  past he had arranged for tests to be proctored by someone at the school they were visiting.  Unfortunately, the advisor had no experience with engineering professors, who have little or no experience dealing with athletes, and frankly don't give a rat's behind about athletic programs.  Son ended up taking several tests early, BEFORE leaving on road trips, and before the rest of his classmates had to take them.  Losing a couple of extra days of study time does not help your grades. 

 A number of son's engineering classes involved a lot of group work.  Arranging to meet with a group of non-athletes around a baseball schedule is not easy, and sometimes impossible.  At times he had to make his contribution to the group by phone or e-mail.  Frankly, there may have been times when he didn't make a major contribution to some of the projects. 

 At son's school, many, if not most, of the non-athlete engineering students do not finish in 4 years.  In some cases, this is because they choose to co-op/intern during one or more semesters.  Many kids end up finding jobs this way.  Taking a semester off to intern/co-op is out of the question if you play baseball.  If you play at a school where players are expected to play summer ball, you will not be able to do summer internships either.

 Even kids that do not co-op/intern often have difficulty finishing within four years.  Son's school requires a big group project that all engineering students must complete, usually during their senior year.  This is virtually impossible to do while playing baseball.   My son had to come back for an extra semester, just to do this project.  

 After four years of college, all of the athletic and/or usual academic scholarships end.  When a kid has to go back for an extra semester or year he may end up paying for it himself.  HOWEVER, some schools have programs that will pay for the full cost of attendance if a former athlete needs an extra year to graduate.  Be sure and ask about this during the recruiting process.   

I cannot emphasize enough how important being a good student and/or committed/dedicated can be. Son had a younger teammate who had all three things going for him, extremely bright, great student, and highly committed.  He graduated last year with a final GPA in the 3.8 - 3.9 range!  My daughter double majored in Biology and Philosophy.  She also rowed for 2.5 years.  The time commitment for rowing is close to that required by baseball.  Rowing undoubtedly affected her grades to some degree, but unlike my son, she is a very good student, so she ended up with a 3.6. 

 Just a couple of notes about grades.  After a couple of years in the minors, my son's team decided it was time for him to become a engineer.  He soon found that there are many firms that will not even talk to you without a 3.0.  Goofing off his senior year caused his GPA to drop below 3.0.  This definitely prolonged his job search for awhile.  But, everything worked out and he now has a great job with a great multinational company.  If your kid goes into engineering, he needs to keep those grades up.  Just getting through an engineering program while playing baseball is a great accomplishment, but you need to keep that 3.0.

Some schools will indeed discourage kids from major in engineering.  But, that is certainly not universal.  Son's coaches were fine with him majoring in engineering.    I think the smarter coaches realize that a lot of kids will change majors after the first year anyway, so why not let them try it and find out for themselves.  However, I have a friend whose son was recruited at Duke and the coaching staff at that time flat out told him he could not major in engineering and play baseball.  (Same kid who recently graduated, with honors and an ME degree from another ACC school).  But, the regime has changed, so that may no longer be the case.

Just a couple of comments about Med School and I'll shut up.  Daughter's 3.6 GPA was marginal for med school admission.  The guys who interviewed her told her that most of the people they were interviewing had 3.9's and 4.0's.  Fortunately, her 37 on the MCAT pulled her through.  From what I have seen, I don't think a pre-med type curriculum is nearly as demanding as an engineering major.  BUT, high grades are more important for med school admission.   

Great post MTH.  While I think everyone has given those interested posters a taste of being an engineering major and playing college baseball,  they should be able to determine that their mileage may vary dramatically.  My son had a vastly different D1 experience from your son even though both were pitchers and mechanical engineers.   The devil is always in the details and it really takes a lot of effort and awareness to ask the right questions with the programs being considered, and sometimes a leap of faith.  I had some serious doubts when my son made his decision, but I'm so glad he put those doubts to rest his first semester.   I couldn't agree with you more on your "three factors".  Nailed it!

Backstop22 posted:

So the challenge for a kid considering a STEM major while playing baseball is figuring out where they might be able to accomplish it if they are willing to commit to what it takes.  CluelessDad seems like he is very reasonable in what he expects of a student athlete and recognizes they are going to need some accommodation by the nature of their athletic competition.  But it is not like a high school student considering any particular school is going to have access to figuring out which schools have reasonable teachers/professors like CD and which do not.  I checked a number of baseball teams rosters and few if any of them note the player's major.  So that is not an option as a way to see if a kid can do both.

My 2017 wants to major in Engineering and now I wonder if it would hurt him in recruiting if he mentions that as his major.  This thread certainly has me thinking that way.  He has pretty high test scores, but maybe not indicating a major would be safer if they think he could not do both Engineering and play baseball.

My personal inclination would be to intentionally mention his major, so you can get the coach's response.  You want to be able to accurately weigh each school academically and athletically.  If you hide it from the coach, he might judge you as a good fit for the program, only for you to show up on campus and realize that the program is not a good fit for you.  The recruiting process should be a two-way interview.

Absolutely Matt.  The only way a recruit is going to know if STEM is an issue or at least discussed with the coach is to bring it up.  Too often I think recruits (sometimes parents) feel awkward, pressured or just don't know any better.  Trust me, I've been there but I learned quickly.  

As Matt mentioned in his earlier post this is about "you" (the recruit) and this is your money (sometimes a lot of money) and your future.  This is one of those times to think about yourself first and team second.  The coach will ask his questions and make his determinations.  The recruits need to do the same...this is about you and how you want to spend the next 4 years and beyond.  This isn't the time to be shy or assume everything is rainbows and unicorns, but ask intelligent questions that get to the heart of the matter....Is STEM a good fit for me here? If so, why or why not?   What is the programs experience and success with STEM majors?  Do STEM majors graduate on time?  What is the approx. percentage of STEMs that come in as freshmen and graduate as STEMS within 5 years while playing baseball?  What is the baseball programs expectations for summer baseball or summer internships?  What are some of the academic strategies that STEM majors use to get their required classes while balancing baseball?   Etc, etc...

Excellent information and advice in this thread. Thanks to all of the contributors.

I am guessing my 2017 may be a lot like others facing this dilemma.  He is not going to play professional baseball but has an absolute passion for the game and wants to play competitively in college.  The combination of high test scores, decent grades and baseball ability may get him an opportunity to play at some D1 and D2/D3 academic schools.  Knows he wants to pursue a STEM major (mechanical engineering) but is aware that it is going to be very difficult if not impossible at some schools (at least based on what some above said certain coaches told them).  Right now he would pick baseball over his future--like a lot of 16 year old kids would.  But his goal would be to find the right school where he could do both.  He believes that high academic schools with baseball programs are bound to have kids similar to him that want to pursue STEM majors, but this thread suggests that may be the exception more than the rule.

He is attending several showcases and camps this Summer, including Headfirst.  Thanks to the advice here, he now has a set of questions to ask the coaches he meets at these events.  If it appears the coach/school is not going to be supportive of him choosing engineering as a major, he can move on to other candidates.  If he winds up finding no school that is interested in him for baseball where he also gets an indication of supporting the engineering major, then he will have to forget about college baseball.  At that point the search will turn to finding an engineering school with club baseball.