Baseball isn't as good today as in the past

Baseball is a cerebral game, people love to analyze. And the future of the game is a favorite subject. Whether it was the 'hooligans' who played the game at the turn of the twentieth century, the Black Sox scandal, the WWII talent drain, expansion, or the strikes, it's been "going downhill" for the game's entire existence.

For reasons everybody knows, athletes are bigger, stronger, and in better condition in all sports. Many of the greats would look downright scrawny -- Willie Mays was 5'10" and 170 lbs (we'd be telling his folks that he's got an uphill battle). And not just in baseball, Bob Cousy was 6'1" for cryin' out loud. You could argue that physically, the talent pool is of much better quality, although perhaps Love Of The Game is no longer the driving force with athletes, but the obscene paychecks.

Many of us here like to remember the sandlot and street ballgames we played as kids, and bemoan the fact that that doesn't happen any more. But I would bet that many more kids are playing organized ball now. When I was a kid (back before The Flood), few kids were involved in youth sports, but if they were, it was baseball. There are simply more choices for more kids with greater participation now.

There are certainly demographics where baseball participation is down. There are also more countries where baseball particpation is up. This website is testimony to the number of quality hs players looking to play in college, the number of quality college players looking to improve, and the whole lot with pro dreams.

I don't think baseball is worried. And I don't think MLB will be advertising in the classifieds for players anytime soon.

Plus the fact that the influx of all the EURO sports has pulled away some pretty good baseball players.

A lot of people just don't take the time to learn the game. For example, I cannot tell you how many people have told me it's a slow paced boring game, well when I take the time to explain the game to them and they see and understand all the strategies at work, those same people all of a sudden are hooked and now love the game.

Our world as a whole is just too darn fast paced and nobody has got time anymore.

Slow down and take the time to smell the roses.

CV

Let me get in my 2 cents. todays players have more opportunities to make themselves better with the indoor facilities and the opportunity to take private instruction( if they can afford it)I coached during the 70's 80's and 90's. I occassionally see a high school game so this is on the high school level. Over the years I had to spend more and more time working on the fundamentals as they were lacking. The players are not as fundamentally sound today coming into high school. Some had ability but were never challenged. How they handle failure becomes very important. some find that tough because all some of them ever heard was how good they were and then they ran into me who let them know when they did not do it right it was a big adjustment. Attitude and self discipline at times becomes a big factor. Players today have more distractions and the social climate is ever changing. Today an excuse is around the corner for every mistake.
The kids today are not as tough as the previous generations. An opinion

I am not sure of the validity of the statistics showing large decreases in participation. I suspect that the onset of travel ball is making it much more difficult to track participation. Has LL Inc. seen a big decline? I imagine so. But how would someone go about accurately tracking all the select teams that don't participate in LL Inc., BR, Pony, etc? It gets much more difficult.

There are plenty of kids playing ball. What is missing is the Black American kids that reside in the inner city. The fields are trash and they can't get anyone to coach. In HS ball, they are fortunate if they can field a team of 9 kids. They are lucky if an umpire will show up. It has happened fast.......5-6 years ago it was OK, but today the kids are not playing, and I don't blame them. 10 years ago at the Area Code Games, my starting 9 had 6 black kids, and we beat the snot out of every body (13 straight games over 3 years) Today, there are none unless the kid is from an upper middle class family. They can't afford showcases.......heck, they can barely afford a glove. The pct. of blacks in the big leagues is now lower than in the 60's.

Until they build diamonds in the inner city, the talent level in the USA will go down. A famous scout (George Genovese)gave me some good advice when I started scouting.........."remember Doug, you can't manufacture a player". He gave me another bit of advice too........"if they can't hit, forget about them". This man signed George Foster, Garry Maddox and Gary Mathews all in the same year out of the inner city.

Its just the beginning.

Lower middle class kids are leaving the game as well. With the slow death of local rec leagues (particularly those that start after little league age) - and the escalating cost of participating in the alternatives - its a no brainer.

Baseball is becoming a very expensive adventure - and the fact of the matter is - many simply cannot afford it.

Add to that the ever escalating costs of actually even going to a game - and bingo.

No one should whine about this. Its been happening for awhile - and the only voices you hear are the ones that can afford to be heard. The rest just hit the road - and find something else to do.

You guys have a point, at my school there is only one black kid on the JV, and only one on the Varsity. That is really skewed when 30% of my school is black (roughly 1200 kids). I also remember playing baseball in the school yard (asphalt with bases drawn on in chalk) after school up until the age of around 11 (I am almost 16 now). Now going by the yard it's empty. Walking by a local LL game, it's inevtibale to hear "A walk is as good as a hit," being preached to the weaker hitters. Even in the few years that I have been exposed to baseball I can say the game has gone downhill, not only on the proffesional level, but all the way down.

Also remember, with teams signing more and more talent out of Latin America, Americans have even less chance of making it to the big leagues.

I was really suprised no one guess it. -I bet you thought it. The study was conducted jointly by the YMCA of America and the Boys Clubs of America. You can always be suspect of the sample or control groups from which a study is conducted. However, what gives this study some validity, is the fact they used the same groups throughout the period of 1992 - 2002.

Basically it is this; the overall youth athletes numbers have actually grown during that period.
Yet the youth baseball participartion numbers have sunk dramatically (9 million down to 7.4 mil). What are these youth athletes doing in place of baseball. Yepper! playing s****r. Probably some of the best ball players we will never know, running around kicking a ball. Oh well.

bbscout makes a very good point about Black kids and baseball. In addition to that, I feel that one of the main reasons that Black kids are easily steered away from baseball is that they can't see a future for their kids in baseball beyond highschool and in many cases, not even beyond rec ball. If I could turn "red" in the face, my face would be red because we've had this discussion before.

I can't tell you how many times that I've had to ask football coaches over the years to stop trying to influence my son to leave baseball and play football. Because HE loves the game and has been successful at it, is the reason he remains in baseball today. Go back and read some of the discussions that we've had about this topic. And yet again, all we do is talk about it without coming together and collectively trying to identify the problem. Almost everytime we talk about this, the thread gets closed because someone becomes defensive and offended and we never get anywhere. You'd think that in this day and age grown people could talk about anything without getting huffy with each other. But we can't. So sad.

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If you look at football, basketball and just about every other sport, you would say that todays athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and all around more talented.

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Savannah,

I agree with a lot of what is being said here, but must disagree with the above. Just as in other sports, baseball players are also, bigger, stronger, faster and to some extent, more talented than ever before. I don't need a study in order to come up with that determination. If old enough, one only needs their eyes and in my case, what's left of the memory.

I do believe that todays baseball player compared to the olden day player, lacks some of the thinking part of the game and maybe some of the toughness. I think it could be because we are in more "technical" times. Now days, video and the computer do a lot of the thinking for players. Everything has become so scientific! In the old days, players had to think more and use their instincts. Now, each MLB team has video footage, computerized print outs of each opposing hitter and pitcher. Players are using data rather than instincts. Not arguing which is better... just noting the change.

I can not argue the numbers participating at the younger age groups, but I can say that we see a very large number of extremely talented players every year. I do think that MLB owners should do everything possible to get the very young involved in baseball. That is, where it all starts.

The main reason for getting young people involved in baseball has nothing to do with the talent pool IMO. It has everything to do with creating more baseball fans. There will always be plenty of baseball "players". The question is, will there always be enough baseball "fans". This is an issue that Major League baseball should take very seriously. One sure way to create a fan is to introduce the game to the very young and to help then fall in love with it. In other words enjoy it and have fun. Our PG Foundation calls this "Creating Life Long Memories".

People mention baseball a lot, with the large number of foreign players now in the big leagues. I think it's just a sign of the times. After all, isn't the NBA loading up on foreign players? Basketball used to be an American "only" game.

I think several things can be attributed to the drop in the baseball numbers.

1) Kids no longer play all three Big sports.
They now specialize at a younger age.

2) Cost. all three and s****r are getting very
expensive especially if it is a competitive
format.

3) BBScout is right on. Black kids are
excelling on the diamond until about age 12.
Then it is off to football or basketball. I
think a big reason is limited scholarship
opportunity at D I/II schools.

4) In my area, the rec leagues all have
waiting lists for participation. Also
if the parents can't afford the
participation cost then the league
will waive the fees.

Ask PG if they had trouble fielding enough teams for their tournaments. I think the talent
and athletes are getting better and better.

Great points, PG. With baseball set up the way that it is, we are ignoring or omitting large segments of our population that would otherwise buy tickets and support a baseball team in their area. More and earlier involvement are two of the keys to the future fan base in baseball.

Also great point, Fighting Squirrel

One mans opinion. We have seen a decline in numbers participating in youth baseball over the past decade or so. When was the baseball strike? 1994. Major league baseball slipped in popularity since that time and bottomed out in attendance around 2000. Since that time attendance has risen, post seasons have been exciting and popularity is on the rise. Right now major college baseball has never been more popular, and minor league baseball sets attendance records yearly.

The trend will trickle down to the little kids, albeit in the suburbs and not the inner city, which is a shame.

Catfish et al,
While I too am dismayed at the loss of Black athletes in baseball, it is not the end of the world. While we miss some great athletes who could play baseball they are not the only athletes in America (contrary to popular opinon). There are athletes of all colors and races who we are missing from participation in baseball and other sports today.

The rise of video games, the computer, and alternate sports all take kids away from the traditional ones ie. baseball, football, and basketball. Specialization at an early age also hurts overall participation. The rise of AAU and select or travel programs in all sports not just baseball means that kids must choose at an early age which sport to concentrate on and leads to excluding others. In many High Schools if you haven't participated in the right track to lead to the varsity you are often hopelessly behind. The expense of these activities also eliminates some kids both white and black.

Kids should be encouraged to play many different sports so that they can find the one they like. Coaches should see that experience as helpful not as a threat. Burnout can be avoided if kids have fun and many different experiences in sport. Sport should not just be for the kid who has money or fits the profile of a particular sport.

In the long run better fans and healthier sports mean better players.

The nature of the sports are changing also. While baseball takes a long time to learn to play well and is still a game of skills, basketball and football are purely athletic endeavours now. The highest recruited basketball player (certain Top-25 D1) in our local HS never played any organized basketball until he reached HS. He's still learning the game (like "what is a zone defense??") and getting by on pure athleticism. The same is true on a lot of the football team.

This sends a message that the 4-10 years of work before HS really learning the game of baseball just isn't worth it in some neighborhoods. The local neighborhood heros are on the gridiron or on the court, not on the field. You don't have to practice and learn discipline, just get strong, fast and show up.

Athletics has become a "fast-food" culture for today's youth. There isn't a "quick return" on the time investment in baseball, nor is there the instant "path to stardom", since the minor leagues are in the way. There are exceptions in baseball but they are quite a bit more rare than in the other sports.

The "designated hitter" is baseball's concession to that "fast food culture". You don't have to be able to play, just hit and know which direction to run on the base paths.

Baseball isn't going away and the MLB won't be hurt by anything except it's own greed. As long as they don't make any rule changes and/or equipment changes that cheapen the value of skills in favor of raw athleticism, baseball will thrive as a sport.

I understand that the inner city black kids are more likely to get deeply involved with football and basketball, for several reasons. We for one, try hard to find the best black athletes from these inner city areas and turn them to baseball. Of course, we have failed in many cases.

One success story though is Carl Crawford from Houston. Carl an MLB all star last year was a young athlete from a tough financial background. He was also a superstar football QB with a scholarship to the U of Nebraska. He no longer has financial difficulties! It would be nice if there were lots of Carl Crawford stories from the inner city.

I must say we see many outstanding black prospects every year. Some of the very best that come to mind in recent years in addition to Crawford... BJ Upton, Justin Upton, Chris Nelson, Delmon Young, Dewan Brazelton, Prince Fielder, Lastings Milledge, Cameron Maybin, and many more.

In the last two years the AFLAC All American Classic has had 16 black players on the two rosters. Also, several of the very best high school underclassmen are black players. So even if a lot of top black athletes are migrating to other sports, it's not like the cupboard is bare. For some reason, there does appear to be a lack in numbers of top prospect type black pitchers. All 15 of the AFLAC players mentioned were/are position players. Chris Nelson was one of the top pitchers in the country though he was an even better shortstop.

My point in all this is... While the percentage of black players overall may be low, the percentage of black players among the very best prospects is fairly high.

I always hate to get involved in any type of racial discussions. It's a fear of saying the wrong thing or having it misinterpreted somehow. I will say, we do not think color when we look at a baseball player. In fact, we don't think color when we look at any human being.

I think baseball is every bit as good today as in the past. Do I miss seeing the former players who I grew up watching i.e. Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Bob Gibson, Al Kaline, you bet! But today's players are better conditioned, better athletes. Baseball is a game of stats, and we love to compare eras, I simply love watching todays ballplayers just as much as when I was a kid. I don't have an opinion on the reason there are no inner city kids playing baseball, but my take on why most quit playing? It is a difficult game to excel at. And if you aren't good at something, sooner or later you will give it up. After all, as I said before the proof is in the pudding! If you hit .300 in baseball you are great, if you shoot .300 in basketball you are awful. See how long a quarterback stays in the game if he only completes 30% of his passes. See how long a baseball player stays in the game if he hits .300. It is all about the difficulty factor. Baseball is not an easy game, you cannot practice or play by yourself, unlike basketball, so I think kids tend to stop playing once the fun has worn off. Also, in Little League there is mandatory play, so everyone plays, as you move up to more competitive baseball, if you are sitting on the bench, you give up. Just my opinion.

We've got an interesting case in our area. A kid who was one of the studs on our LLWS team in '96 but decided to play football in college. He's given up on football and is now trying to make it in baseball. He's relatively raw, but he's a big kid with great wheels and a lot of pop in his bat and he's working hard so he may still have a shot. Might even be a late round steal for somebody, although I'm not a good enough judge of talent at that level to know one way or the other.

I can't think of any other sport off the top of my head where the defense actually controls the ball.

It's a different sport. I guess that's one reason why some enjoy it and others don't.

Jason

I mean no disrespect to anyone here but the truth of our area is...

In Marin, which is supposed to be the most liberal, we have two areas where athletes of minority extraction come from. The high schools from those districts have many minority kids but most of the athletic programs in those schools have very few minority participants in anything besides s****r and basketball.

There is no outreach to the minority kids for the baseball and football programs. The reason for that is at the youth level the LL and Pop Warner programs are costly and controlled by the majority white community and with them the minority kids are viewed as trouble makers.

The community leaders where the Blacks mainly live set up their own program for midnight basketball and they have their own leagues which doesn't include participating in high school basketball. The programs are well known to the college recruters and they get the best players from these midnight programs.

So in liberal Marin sports is very much a segregated activity based upon financial and ethnic background.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this is the truth of the situation here for any real chances for minority athletes to participate in baseball.

We need to deal with the truth of this aspect of baseball participation. As such when I have attended showcases or tournaments you very seldom see black or hispanic athletes on a baseball team.

Yes, I think the strike had more impact than we originally thought. And yes, it does start with the fans. If Dad or Mom isn't interested, well, thats as big an influence as friends, school, etc.
And yes you are also right that baseball is no longer an inner-city sport.

My honest belief is that we will see a bigger and bigger number of players coming from outside of the USA. Getting a contract for very little money isn't an issue for alot of these players.

Well down here in the conservative bastions of Southern California we regularly get trounced by teams made up of mostly kids that are Hispanic. We've been branching out of our local town to get players who are more dedicated to the game and as a result our team is becoming a bit more diverse, and a bit more competitive than in the past.

Our Little League does it's registration on-line or by mail rather than having a registration day. If they would just have a registration day at the park on S****r saturday they'd get a lot more of the Hispanic kids signed up and the league would be a lot stronger.

We may get an increase in numbers of kids playing baseball around the USA if adults like us (who probably love baseball as much as anybody) get out there and actively participate in the local (LL, house, whatever you want to call them) programs. 'Travel' and 'select' programs are flourishing and costly......we need free instruction, mentoring, free clinics, encouragement, positive PR, etc. in order to get more kids (and perhaps more of those good athletes) participating in youth baseball.

It should begin with all of us here!!!

This thread had been moving along quite well until I suggested that we all contribute and volunteer to provide 'freebies' to our local 'house' leagues. I didn't mean to have the discussion end.

I hope that some of actually will provide a free lift (for the kids and for the sport) to this game that we love so much!!!

In addition to many of the comments here, I would another reason is TELEVISION. Kids watch college FB & Hoops teams from all over the country. There see local kids involved, so they see that as a possibility.

How much college baseball is on TV? Some, but it's miniscule comparitively. They imagine themselves in FB or hoops games with family and friends watching. There isn't much TV exposure to baseball other than MLB. All they have for reference is HS and summer league, especially if they fall into a not-so-fortunate economic class. This has a huge effect on kids in inner cities, smaller communities, and in many areas of the country.

Baseball is also a warm weather/dry weather sport. Basketball and football can be played in any weather. Baseball is much stronger in the warmer regions of the country. Latin American kids can play year round.

By PiC

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We need to deal with the truth of this aspect of baseball participation. As such when I have attended showcases or tournaments you very seldom see black or hispanic athletes on a baseball team.

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PiC,

The above statement you made, confuses me. We have many Blacks and Hispanics at our events and tournaments. In fact, the PG National last year (for one) had 24 Black Players and 27 Hispanic Players = 51 Minority Players. About 33% of the entire showcase were either Black or Hispanic. I'm surprised you being from Southern Cal. haven't seen the same, because many of these players were from California.

In our region it is true there are not as many black players as their used to be but there are a myriad of reasons for this which if we went into would be beating a dead horse.

One point: most town leagues for youths have ways and means of helping families who cannot pay the fees so lets not use that as an excuse. If they want to play there is a way.

I will say that those who are playing are fine baseball players and excellent athletes and there are also many, many hispanic players playing the game. On the other side of the coin we see more youths of Jewish heritage playing baseball now. It is the way of the world today.

Much has to do with the region and location where one resides because it is a simple fact that some cities and towns do not have large minority populations.

Has the game changed ? Yes-- the players are bigger, stronger, faster and in many ways more skilled--- aluminum and turf have also changed the game--- the fact that there are no longer corner lots and "neighborhoods" has changed the game.

BUT the game is still the greatest game in the land and always will be.

PG,
Please be more careful. He's from Northern California, which isn't bad, but more specifically he's from Marin. We're a little more in tune with the real world down here in SoCal.

Just some thoughts from a local level. I hope that this is not the norm.
When our college age guy was in T-Ball, There was at least a dozen teams at our local rec league park. From what I hear now there may be two teams playing. They have to travel to other parks to play.
Whats so wierd about it is that there seems to be less coaching available. At the time Our oldest played, There were quite a few knowedgable baseball coaches available and there was some very heated competition in the league. The park also went through a phaze of stringing some state championship all star teams from the ages of eight and above. I asked the head coach of the High school what he thought about all of this at that time and he said " As long as you people keep pumping out these kids out of your park, I will be in good shape".
Whats happened is that this has all ended. Sure there are a few players up and coming but, The days of the HS coach just putting them on the field and letting them play are over. He now has a huge task ahead of him in training.

The average price for a home in Marin County is about 1.2 million.

Guess we'll all just have to get PiC to invite us out to the PiC estate.

I bet PiC lives down in the ghetto in Marin County. Because he always seems so pissed off about everything.

Sorry for not knowing where Marin is. I'm from Iowa and that's my excuse! And I'm fairly sure I won't be moving into an Average Home in Marin County any time soon.

By the way, 1.2 will build a pretty nice big shed where I come from.

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Originally posted by Sark20:
When our college age guy was in T-Ball, There was at least a dozen teams at our local rec league park. From what I hear now there may be two teams playing. They have to travel to other parks to play.

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Every community is different. We are on the other side of the fence. When our oldest was a youngen, there were 6 backstops in our small area for fields with no mounds and dirt infields. Now, there are 19 fields and they are booked solid from the entire spring/summer/fall. Half have grass infields and 6 more are under construction with public funds plus another 5 with private funds.... and we still won't have enough to meet the needs.

Coaching was only "daddy ball" when my youngest started ... now there are coaches with college playing experience and some of them "re-cycle" to younger teams when the current team they have ages off to high school age.

When my eldest was young, there were (maybe) 200 players in the system of all ages. Last year, there were over 1200 (and a new competing league had formed, siphoning off some of the player load). A lot of players in the pre-hs age group were off playing just AAU ball also and weren't participating in the local leagues.

All of the local leagues offer joining for free for lower income families. Most have equipment exchanges where bags, bats, gloves, cleats, etc are donated if outgrown and available free to anyone who needs them.

They have even survived the birth of a tremendous local youth s****r association over the same time period. The s****r association has it's own set of fields so that CF isn't torn up by the s****r cleats all fall.

.... it all depends on what is important to your community. That's where these decisions are made. If the community wants youth athletic programs, it can happen.