Baseball vs. A Class Trip

I would expect my son's high school coach to assure the teacher, and the players, that if the players went on the trip, they would suffer no penalty for having done so. Anything less would be completely unacceptable.

Why miss classroom time & baseball practice/games for a foreign trip?

I suggest a compromise. Change it to a one time summer-school sponsored trip. If the teacher feels the trip is important enough to miss your limited practice/game time, suggest she keep the students/players in class and you keep your players for practice & games. The two of you could volunteer to take the students on the school budget during summer break & call it foreign exchange student training.

Parents would probably not mind since it would be school sponsored and teacher & coach guided. Who knows, the teacher might be shocked by parents wishing to particpate at their own cost.

Did this teacher notify the coaches earlier in the year of this trip? If the coach knew ahead of time maybe he could have adjusted the game schedule during this period.

Since it would be a school sponsored trip, I don't think removing kids that go on the trip from the team would be right. I do think anyone that goes gives up their starting positions and playing time. They will have to re-earn their positions on the team when they return. The coach must decide if that is one game, 4 games, 8 games, etc.

I've always told my son, once you have committed to play, you have to be there every game, every practice, every event for your teammates and coaches unless you are physically ill or there is some immediate family event (wedding, funeral, etc.).

Coaches must have severe consequences if players "choose" other activities over baseball. He has to know he can count on his team being there.

Thanks for responding Midlo.....since we obviously are at odds on this, can you explain why there should be NO penalty at all? Remember, this is a voluntary trip, doesnt affect their grade. Also, does it make any difference that if the kids were gone for 10 to 12 days as they propose, that the players would miss 9 or 10 or our 27 games? Would it make a difference if this was a player who said he had a once in a lifetime chance to go with his family on a vacation to, I don't know, Aruba?

Southpaw

Thanks for throwing the problem on us summer coaches.

M-BB-D,
I understand & respect your view. I was one of those.....a few years back.

My son was originally disappointed that he was going to miss his senior trip (to be sure, not an 'educational' trip but a big deal nonetheless) because it was baseball season. Then, I reminded him that because he was a baseball player, he got to spend 4 spring breaks in high school in Florida playing ball and yes, playing on the beach. He decided that perhaps missing his senior trip was just fine.

Dear Mrs. (Blank),
I appreciate you considering the baseball team as you prepare your students for their trip abroad. The rules we make (and enforce) are done for a variety of reasons. The main reason is for the basic preservation of the team and the league because without continued player participation the team and all the players will eventually dissolve. The rules are not designed to punish or dismiss players but simply a protective measure for all the players on this team and the league. If I understand correctly the trip abroad is an optional activity (as is baseball) and the young men in question, not their coach or teacher, need to select which option they chose to participate in. If one of my players chooses to participate in the trip abroad I will have no ill feelings toward that player but I will have to take the necessary actions to protect those remaining players that honor their baseball commitment. Thanks again for your considerate request and Bon Voyage.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I would expect my son's high school coach to assure the teacher, and the players, that if the players went on the trip, they would suffer no penalty for having done so. Anything less would be completely unacceptable.

Im really surprised by the other posts - the kids are students first. If the trip is just for fun then it is wrong for all students. If it is truly educational then it should be a negotiable item with no impact to the kids.

Fungo - this is a first - I cant remember disagreeing with you before. As long as the trip is educational and can add to the collegr resume then baseball should take a backseat

My response would be:

Dear Teacher ---------,

That sounds like a great idea. I hope all the kids that go have a great time and enjoy the educational experience. If any of my players decide to go - I hope they also have a great time and a great educational experience.

Unfortunately - the sport of -------- is also a great educational experience. And in order to earn that - sacrifices have to be made. As I am sure you know - you cant have your cake and eat it too. Thats a life lesson.

So - if any of my players go to ------ with you - tell them not to hurry back on account of baseball - because they wont be playing for me anymore.

I hope you all have a great time and learn alot.
Good luck.

Sincerely - the -------- coach.

Baseball is a team sport. If 4 players go on the trip that could seriouly hurt the rest of the team.

The coach would be correct in doing what is necessary to protect the team.

You joined a team; make the sacrifice for the team. That is called character

Seriously why can't they go in the summer? How can they justify missing so much class to go on a trip that you can do over the summer? Asia, Europe, Australia and most of South America and Africa will be there over the summer (depending on which revolution wins in South America and Africa).

I don't have a problem with them missing a little if it is something that cannot be avoided. Our school offers a chorus class which also doubles as our drama stuff. They put on a show every spring during our season. I find out the date from that teacher and I don't schedule games on those days (one is a Saturday but I make sure we are back in time) and we work out a schedule where the players can spend time at both the chorus practice and baseball practice. She usually starts practice as I am ending baseball practice so they are only missing 10 - 15 minutes of baseball and if we have a game she does not expect them to miss baseball for chorus practice. This was part of their grade as well. I have to say it has been a great experience for the guys and me working with one of my colleagues.

On the other hand our former Spanish teacher wasn't like that. She made her class so hard the kids couldn't pass it so she offered bonus points and test grades if they did Spanish competitions. They would sing in a chorus and do drama stuff and other ****. My players hated it and didn't want to do it but they were failing - just like the other 90% of the kids taking the class and the 10% passing loved that stuff so they did it too - now I am in a hard place. I can't allow my guys to fail but they need to be at practice which she was taking up for her stuff. She would say they would be done at such and such time but then keep the kids extra. I have a serious issue with her holding these kids grades over their heads just to get them out for that stuff. Our administration let it go since we put a check in a box somewhere saying that we are offering a chance at some cultural understanding of some stupid thing or other. We butted heads until she finally retired this past school year. So far the new Spanish teacher has been pretty cool but time will tell.

Overall it can be worked out so both can have a chance to win and gain something from it but I can't see missing so much classtime to go on this trip.

If you don't care could you print your response back to her?

I would simply tell my kid it's his decision, mention he made a commitment to a team and there are others depending on him. This trip is not out of the ordinary, as the teacher said it usually lasts 12 days. Therefore a kid should have known about this ahead of time and would also know this decision could present itself. We all make sacrifices for one thing or another and this would be one of the many a kid will have to make.
Commitment is something that has become lost in our society. Too many people think rules should not apply to them. I too would tell the kids to make a decision but not to expect to play as there are others who showed commtment to the team and they would be the ones to get the time.

I'll try not to make this too long but this is what happen to my kid. Senior year in HS. He was invited for the second time(he did attend jr year) to the Joplin TOS games. He signed his letter of intent, but needed to take a test for the college( some kind of mandatory test) one of the tests were given the current weekend and one when my kid was to be at the USA Tournament. During our Baseball banquet the coach preached academics through and through. Well after his speech we told him my kid would miss a saturday practice in order to take the test, because the next one was in June and he would be at the Tournament. Well he said no, if he did he would not play in the CIF playoff game ,which he was scheduled to pitch and may not play in the next one either. My kid had to call the USA people and let them know he would not be attending. He was definitely ticked off but knew he was part of a team that needed everyone to be sucessful. So he went to a Saturday practice which he shagged balls, did a few PFP'S, raked the mound and that was it.

quote:

Fungo - this is a first - I cant remember disagreeing with you before. As long as the trip is educational and can add to the college resume then baseball should take a backseat

Dave,
I appreciate you disagreeing with me. That gives me the opportunity to clarify what I'm saying. To me this is NOT about baseball vs. education as it appears on the surface. This is about choices, commitments, rules and consequences. If it makes you feel better, if I were given the choice of selecting between a trip abroad, and a baseball team, I would select the trip abroad, forgo the baseball team and have a great summer ------ Unless I had previously promised a coach and my teammates that they could count on me to be there for them --- as they have for me. Virtually all high school students know they will be given the option of going on a senior trip, I know my son was. We discussed it at least a year prior to the actual trip and we all agreed the senior trip/baseball team was a choice he would have to make and he made the choice to play baseball. He also chose baseball over Friday night parties, swimming, band, ROTC, Boy Scouts, fishing, marriage, completing his college degree, summer school, vacation bible school, family vacations and a host of other things that many people consider important, good, fun and educational.
Fungo

Did all the spring sports coaches get the same email or was it just baseball?

quote:

To me this is NOT about baseball vs. education as it appears on the surface. This is about choices, commitments, rules and consequences.

Fungo, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, when you're committed to playing a sport, that commitment must take priority over other optional activities, no matter how beneficial they may be. Last year, the leader of an organization my son had been involved with repeatedly invited him to events that conflicted with baseball tournaments. Son declined and explained why. One day, son got a pretty irate email from the director asking son why he would want to decline these activities so he could attend "just another baseball game." His use of the word "just" clued us in as to his thinking and my husband wrote a lengthy reply explaining the commitment that is necessary when one is trying to reach a goal of playing college ball. He finally stopped pressing even though he disagreed with our position.

We have friends who are missionaries who have urged our son to accompany them on a 10-day missions trip to Africa in the summer. They have talked about this with him for the past couple of years. We have told them that we realize this will be an awesome, life-changing opportunity, but son won't be able to do it until summer after senior year -- after he has hopefully signed an NLI.

quote:

He also chose baseball over Friday night parties, swimming, band, ROTC, Boy Scouts, fishing, marriage, completing his college degree, summer school, vacation bible school, family vacations and a host of other things that many people consider important, good, fun and educational.

Those were exactly my thoughts when I read this original post last night. Most of our sons have given up many other opportunities because of their love of and commitment to baseball. Hopefully none of them regret that choice.

My son's HS has senior trip and a "Senior Class Live" play that is done every spring. You know that you won't be participating in either of these events if you play baseball. It's a choice, but the coach can't have 1/2 of his team on the field at any given time because of extracuricular events. I can remember a couple of boys giving up baseball so that they could participate in the other events... hopefully they'll look back on their choice with fondness too. For my son, he spent every spring including that senior one, on a field.... it was were he wanted to be.

If I were you coach, I'd explain to this teacher (who should already understand this choice if she's had student athletes in her home) that you completely understand if some of your players would prefer traveling over playing baseball and wish them all an enjoyable journey. You want kids that prefer to be no where else but on your field this spring. We all have to make choices every day.... this begins when we're kids and teenagers.

Lclcoach,
What your sons coach did was mean.. A power play. Coachs also have a commitment to the player, that was not an important practice, your son did not need to be there. taking the test was in your sons best interest.

Tcb1
Our high school coach excused our Sr. players to attend their Sr. class trip. Its an important part of the high school experence, once in a life time trip.
Your letter sounds as if this trip was one that was recently arranged not something the students have anticipated for 4 yrs, I would agree with the coach on this one

Coaches, players and parents need to pick and choose their battles,

Fungo, as always I appreciate your post. I guess where I was coming from was that the vast majority of the HS players will not play at the next level. For them to get into a good school they must have a very good college resume. I agree that if commitments have been made then the player must talk to the coach and see if something can be done. If in doubt, the player must honor his commitment to the team.

I particularly liked your comment about bible class – my son and I haven’t had the opportunity to go for some time now. You have to make choices as you said. Is it the right choice, I would rather not think about that one.

Catcher09,
I appreciate your posts too. You have a great perspective and one of my favorite people on the HSBBW. While I did give my opinion on this I basically see it as an individual choice that in my opinion would have little or no impact on the outcome of one’s college education or baseball future if handled properly.

Folks,

Since we've had a few posts (which I really appreciate) I thought I'd post my first draft of my response letter.

A couple of other notes: I have had a policy for about 10 years that if you miss a game for an unexcuesd reason, you sit out the same number of games when you come back. Also, miss 3 practices/games for unexcused reasons, you are off the team. Therefore, my players know this going in to the season.

This policy was originally established due to players going away to Florida for spring break. Although it could also apply to a family trip that someone chooses to take during the season. If the class trip we're dealing with was something that the students HAD to take to complete their class or was a part of their grade, then there really wouldn't be an argument.

But since it IS NOT mandatory, I simply say that the players need to make a choice.....we haven't made cuts or even had our first practice yet. So if a player wants to go on this trip and thereby miss a third of their season, I suggest that it is better they not come out because it isn't fair to the less talented player who would be cut, but who would have been at every practice and game had he made the team. Basically an average player who is there ALL the time does me more good than the very good player who misses 33% of the games.

As for some other questions that were asked: No, this is the first I've heard of this trip. I don't teach at the school, so I don't know all the details of the trip, but I know this is the first time I've had this issue come up in 14 years. No, I don't believe an e-mail like this went out to any other coaches because I don't think any of them have a policy like this (softball is begging for players and track has more than it can handle and doesn't cut).

I HAVE had players miss time due to the Business Class's trip to New York City. Two years ago my #4 hitter/2nd best pitcher told me he was going to NYC and would miss our two biggest League games. I tried to convince him not to go, and told him that he knew my rule that if you missed a game for an unexcused absence you would sit out the same number of games. He went, he missed two games and he sat two games. We lost all four. But I couldn't cave in to him just because he was our best all-around player,

Some of those details cleared up, here is my first draft of a response e-mail to the teacher:

Dear________

Thank you for your letter. I certainly do understand your position and appreciate you contacting me. I hope you will also understand that I don't want to take away from a student-athlete's educational experience.

The main problem I have is that I often have 40 or 45 players trying to get one of 30 spots on the baseball team. As much as I hate to do it, I have to cut players who try out for the team. And quite honestly, it bothers me when I cut a player who I know would dedicate himself to baseball and his teammates and never miss a practice or game, and instead I keep a player who then chooses to participate in another activity where he will voluntarily miss 25% or more of our season. It isn't fair to those players who didn't make the team, and it isn't fair to those players who now may suffer a team loss because several key players aren't present.

If, as you say, the trip takes 10 to 12 days, any players who go on the trip would miss a minimum of 6 games, and possibly as many as 10 games. This means missing better than 1/3 of our season. And quite frankly, a baseball player who takes 10 to 12 days off without practicing or playing is not likely to be ready to play for a few days until he has come back and gotten more practice. We practice pretty intensely for more than a month before we even get to play; interrupting that a week or two later will probably put those players on the bench for a few games after they return.

I don't want you to think I am a coach who believes that his sport, or any sport for that matter, is more important than the science fair, or the drama club or band or any other activity. However, I feel that once a young man has committed himself to a TEAM sport, he has a responsibility to his teammates, his team "family" as it were, to be there for them, to support them and to make sure he gives every bit of himself to the team.

While I don't think that the baseball team has ever pulled players out of your class early that I know of, I understand what you're saying. The difference is that if a couple of kids did miss a class or part of a class, it would not negatively affect the remainder of the class to perform, whereas 3 players missing 9 or 10 games will clearly affect the rest of the baseball team.

If you would like to discuss this in more detail in person, I'm more than willing to do so. Thanks again for contacting me, I hope I've been able to explain my position adequately.

Mike Sheets

What's the difference between a parent approved voluntary school trip and a family vacation during the season (Spring break)?

This is a voluntary trip, if the coach has the same rule for missing games because of family vacations he should stick to his guns. If he let's player go on in-season family trips, then he is leaving the door open for anyone going on this trip not to be penalized.

Maybe the coach should ask the teacher if he/she would have a problem taking his/her students on a baseball trip for a week during an important time of the unit they were working on. Would it affect their grade?

To me it sounds like a couple of non-committed players who may not be getting a lot of pt to begin with are trying to "double-dip".

Some other thoughts:

• What about those games that are missed? Will they affect the conference race? Will they affect the seed your team receives at the post season seed meeting? Certainly if you lose, they will!
• What is the guarantee that those "replacement players" now starting will do poorly. If they do well, don't they deserve to continue playing? Therefore, there aren't any guarantees that these players will win a starting spot.
• What if these seniors are equal in talent to younger players? Should they then be cut if they are going to miss a significant amount of time? Often on this site, members argue that a coach should show some loyalty to those seniors who are equal in ability to a lower class player. However, in this scenerio, loyalty isn't shown by the player.
• If you allow them to go, will you open a pandora's box of other reasons players can miss either practice or games?
• If all of the seniors are not going on this trip, what is "fair" for them concerning their senior year?

Again, some more things to think about. Coach, as I tell my parents in our parent meeting, "Life's about choices. You will have to live with the choices you make for your son. I support that. However, I have to live with the choices I make for the good of the team. I hope you support that as well."

Coach B25....thanks for an excellent post. While I've said what you said in your last paragraph, I've never said it as eloquently. I'm going to steal that....

As for the rest of your post:

1. Yes, the players would apparently miss at least 4 or 5 league games. And if we were to lose it would affect seedings. I don't really worry about seedings though.

2. Since I don't even know for sure what players are considering going on the trip (could be Seniors or Juniors, starters or bench players, doesn't matter; we all follow the same rules), I don't know who the replacement players are. However, if it is a starter who is going, his replacement is most likely going to be someone who played on JV last year, or a Sophomore who played on the Freshman team last year. If they take away a Senior's job then the Senior has to WIN it back; he doesn't get it by default. I reward ability, execution, loyalty and effort, not Seniority.

3. See #2 above.

4. Yes, I think I will opena Pandora's box. A trip here a trip there, my uncle got me tickets to the Final Four, my family has once in lifetime tickets to Hawaii, etc.

5. Again, I agree. If I'm a senior and one of my buddies tells me he's going to miss 10 days to go on a voluntary trip, I blow him a lot of s***. I gave one of my best friends a hard time when he decided not to play at all his senior year despite being very good....I still tell him all the time that it's his fault we were 4-16

We've been no where but on a baseball field, football field, or wrestling mat for 10+ years.
Heard rumblings about school foreign trips in the back ground from other parents,..but not once did either son bring me the permission form asking to go. Guess they preferred to spend the $2000+ trip money on sports gear instead.

While a trip to a foreign land can be amazingly educational,..and a vacation to the tropics is well overdue for shortstopmom, I also am a firm believer in commitment,..and being part of a sports team is just that. 100% committment, 100% of the time.
Perhaps it doesnt mean it was always the right decision to some,...just always the way we've done it.
Keeps things pretty simple,...never any guessing or rearranging,..were just always there.

( some of us ( me ) with duck taped mouth and toting my own palmtree in, ta boot! ha! If I cant get to the tropics because of baseball,...perhaps I can bring a little of the tropics to the baseball field!...mai tai anyone??? I'm the one wearing the school colored coconut hat in center field,..by the potted palmtree. )

In hindsight, ssmom is right. My son would never bring the subject up.

Maybe Im from another planet. Some say I am. But I cant think of any kid in our program that would want to miss practice and games with his team to go on a voluntary school trip. To me is says alot about that players true desire to be a part of our team and program when he would rather be somewhere else. I see a voluntary school trip as no different than a family vacation during the season. If the teacher sees this trip as so important to the kids why not take them in the summer when they will not miss any classroom time? I would give my players the option of going on the trip or playing on the baseball team and then let them make my decision for me.

I think your draft, TCB1, is well-written and thoughtful...
...the teacher should appreciate it.

Agree with Midlo, 100%.

I, too, had a similar situation unfold in high school eons ago.

Baseball coach gave us a choice. If you go, you can't play varsity baseball...no options. Said: "You'll have plenty of time to go during your lifetime"!

The trip was to Washington, D.C., for a week. Didn't go in 1961...Finally went with my family in 2001. Took me 40 years.

Sorry to sound tough here...but we all make choices. I, too, missed some opportunities over the years due to being an athlete - but I gained so much more. Players have to be faithful to their team and they make a choice to be a part of that organization. Sometimes, you simply can't have your cake and eat it too!

Beenthere....am I misreading your post? It seems that you agree with Midlo, but then seem to say something different in your follow up.

You can not go back and play HS baseball. Ever. You get four years and then there is no going back , ever. It is a once in a lifetime experience. You can however go on trips the rest of your life. You can go to the beach when your out of HS go to Wash DC etc etc. But what about the committment that your teamates have made to have a sucessfull season. What about the things they have sacrificed to miss to be part of a team. What makes you think that what you want to do is anymore important than what they want to do. If your going to play on a team then you play on the team. If your going to put other things in front of your team and team mates then you sacrifice the right to be a part of that team. Yeah I can see it right now. You leave and miss games and practices and your team mates are out there everyday working and battling in games. You come back from your trip and play in front of those guys. Im sure that wouldnt cause any problems would it? By the way you think his college coach would have a problem with this?

This has also come up at our high school, and the policy is so well known, baseball players don't even ask. Go on the trip, or stay on the team, but not both.

The thing to remember is that high school is first and foremost about the educational experience. As much as we all love baseball, the educational part comes first.

I would expect the coach to defer to academics in appropriate cases. I suppose it is fair to inquire as to whether this should've been disclosed before someone else got cut, or how educational it might actually be. My cue is that the school administration approved these kids missing 6-7 days of classes. That tells me it's considered a very valuable educational experience. Whoever compared it to a family trip to Aruba above was off base, IMHO.

I also expect that if my son gets an F, or if he cuts a class, he's going to be suspended. This is not just about behavior and discipline. It's about recognizing that academics come first and baseball, however much we love it, is an extracurricular activity.

Hate to disagree with my friend Coach May on this, but let me turn what you said around on you: The educational part sticks with you for your lifetime. The baseball part is over way too soon for most of us. In 20-30 years, the trip will be remembered more than would missing a few games out of one of four HS seasons.

I am also suspicious of claims that this will severely impact the team. On every team I've ever seen, the starters would no more give up games for a class trip than a man in the moon. I'll bet you the kids we're talking about are your bench players, and while they may be important to you, the fact is you're asking them to miss something valuable just so you can keep your insurance policy intact in mid-season. Gimme a break, you can call up some JV guys if you're that worried.

This is what I love about this site. We can disagree and still at the same time respect one anothers views. To me as a coach I dont have starters or bench players. I have players. To me no one is more important than anyone else on the team. It is important to me that all my players understand that they are each equal in their importance to our teams success. I agree that you are in HS for education first. If this was a mandantory trip and it had an impact on their grade I would have a different view. But this is a voluntary trip and has no impact on their grade in the class. We will disagree on this one but at the same time I respect your opinion on this MidloDad and everyone else who disagrees with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The thing to remember is that high school is first and foremost about the educational experience. As much as we all love baseball, the educational part comes first.

I would expect the coach to defer to academics in appropriate cases. I suppose it is fair to inquire as to whether this should've been disclosed before someone else got cut, or how educational it might actually be. My cue is that the school administration approved these kids missing 6-7 days of classes. That tells me it's considered a very valuable educational experience. Whoever compared it to a family trip to Aruba above was off base, IMHO.

I also expect that if my son gets an F, or if he cuts a class, he's going to be suspended. This is not just about behavior and discipline. It's about recognizing that academics come first and baseball, however much we love it, is an extracurricular activity.

Hate to disagree with my friend Coach May on this, but let me turn what you said around on you: The educational part sticks with you for your lifetime. The baseball part is over way too soon for most of us. In 20-30 years, the trip will be remembered more than would missing a few games out of one of four HS seasons.

I am also suspicious of claims that this will severely impact the team. On every team I've ever seen, the starters would no more give up games for a class trip than a man in the moon. I'll bet you the kids we're talking about are your bench players, and while they may be important to you, the fact is you're asking them to miss something valuable just so you can keep your insurance policy intact in mid-season. Gimme a break, you can call up some JV guys if you're that worried.

I must disagree. Just because it is an excused absence doesn't make it an 'educational experience.' That logic, at my school, would mean that going to the doctor or staying home sick would be an 'educational experience.' Sure, it's excused by the administration. So would a family trip to Aruba provided you get approval ahead of time.

Under http://www.cifstate.org/ Education Programs, , Pursuing Victory with Honor, then Pursuing Victory with Honor Implementation Tools, there’s a whole bunch of items the pertain directly to this subject. Personally, I see it as a stretch that looking at all those things, anyone would actually agree that punishment of a player for going on such a trip is something honorable.

Of course I could be wrong too. But I’d find it difficult at best to tell a student/athlete who’s very likely been a member of the program for 4 years, and likely devoted a heck of a lot of time to the team, that if he disappeared for 12 days on a school approved trip, he was now acting in a dishonorable way, and deserves to be punished.

Don’t any of the sacrifices he and his family have made for the team count for anything?

Coaches are going to see this differently that is a fact. I would bet that the vast majority of players that compete and train at a high level will as well. If you have a son that would rather go on this trip than practice and play you are probaly looking at HS being his last stop in the game.