Baseball...second-lowest men's scholarship sport

Excellent article. Thanks, HaverDad.

This article has generated lots of interest as there is a thread in the Recruiting forum, the Texas forum, and now this forum. Either way, the following quote caught my attention as well:

quote:

Sample quote: "And if I had it to do over, I would have skipped a practice every now and then to go to a concert or a movie with my friends. I missed out on a lot of things...... I wish I could have some of that time back."

I say if kids are practing all the time and missing things they would rather do, then they are in the sport for the wrong reasons and they ought to do something else. Playing a sport for some reason other than the love of the sport does not make sense to me. Like the university official said, there is tons more academic money available for college than sports money. Thus, it makes much more sense for those that are chasing sholarships to put their time and energy into improving their academics and applying for as many scholarships as possible. This leads me to believe there are other motivations involved. BTW, one irony in the above quote is if the kid starts studying like crazy to earn the scholarship, they might also have to miss out going to a movie a time or two.

I think parents sometimes can want things worse than their kids - far worse in extreme cases. Some believe that if their kid only works hard enough, they can achieve any goal including those of the parents. If some kids are lamenting they wished they would have done something else, this implies to me that the child was perhaps externally driven by forces beyond their control or actual desire.

Jeffrey voiced concerns like "missing out on being a kid" one summer. Best decision we ever made was to allow him to not play ball the summer after his 8th grade year...and he found out how very much he missed it. Now, I can only pray that at some point the boy wises up and starts putting HALF the effort into his academics that he does in baseball.

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Parents often look back on the many years spent shuttling sons and daughters to practices, camps and games

(those are MEMORIES that will last a lifetime.)

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If some kids are lamenting they wished they would have done something else, this implies to me that the child was perhaps externally driven by forces beyond their control or actual desire.

My Legion team played sixty games a summer. We played non-conference doubleheaders on Sunday following conference doubleheaders on Saturday. There were definitely times I wished I was doing something other than baseball. It doesn't mean I wouldn't do the same thing all over again. But for three years of summers, I never had a free weekend day until late August.

College summer ball had a better schedule. On the weekends we played Friday night and Sunday. We usually had Saturday's free.

quote:

Originally posted by HaverDad:
More from the education desk, again from my morning paper.

Sample quote: "And if I had it to do over, I would have skipped a practice every now and then to go to a concert or a movie with my friends. I missed out on a lot of things...... I wish I could have some of that time back."

Hmmm. Did you enjoy spinning it?

At least provide the quote, correctly

"I missed out on a lot of things for s****r I wish I could have some of that time back."

Looks to me the article was primarily regarding womens' sports.

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Originally posted by Bear:

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Originally posted by HaverDad:
More from the education desk, again from my morning paper.

Sample quote: "And if I had it to do over, I would have skipped a practice every now and then to go to a concert or a movie with my friends. I missed out on a lot of things...... I wish I could have some of that time back."

Hmmm. Did you enjoy spinning it?

At least provide the quote, correctly

"I missed out on a lot of things for s****r I wish I could have some of that time back."

Looks to me the article was primarily regarding womens' sports.

Actually, that quote was from a kid who played travel club s o c c e r his whole life trying to get a college scholarship and didn't get one. I can see how he would feel that way.

quote:

Actually, that quote was from a kid who played travel club s o c c e r his whole life trying to get a college scholarship and didn't get one. I can see how he would feel that way.

Great point.

However, I was very concerned when my son was in HS that he was missing some of the "fun" parts that accompanies it IMO. What really pointed me to this observation was he was doing it alone. No one at his school was dedicated year round to baseball, and those who "liked " baseball did not see it as a future and as a result conditioning was the furthest thing from their mind. He had a ton of friends, was well respected by students and staff, but seldom did he participate in many of those after school social activities on and off school grounds.

One day I told him "Ryan, because of your baseball dream you are missing some great things that happen in HS"

He replied " No Dad, they're missing it"

It was the last time I brought it up.

When a baseball team starts making $57 million in revenue I guess it should get the same benefits as a football team which does.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB1192752424178642...wAUy5w_20081018.html

"I'm sure my scholarship is possible because of the football team," says Lindsay Quintiliani, a sophomore goalie on the field hockey team.

.

quote:

I say if kids are practing all the time and missing things they would rather do, then they are in the sport for the wrong reasons and they ought to do something else. Playing a sport for some reason other than the love of the sport does not make sense to me. Like the university official said, there is tons more academic money available for college than sports money. Thus, it makes much more sense for those that are chasing sholarships to put their time and energy into improving their academics and applying for as many scholarships as possible. This leads me to believe there are other motivations involved. BTW, one irony in the above quote is if the kid starts studying like crazy to earn the scholarship, they might also have to miss out going to a movie a time or two.

I think parents sometimes can want things worse than their kids - far worse in extreme cases. Some believe that if their kid only works hard enough, they can achieve any goal including those of the parents. If some kids are lamenting they wished they would have done something else, this implies to me that the child was perhaps externally driven by forces beyond their control or actual desire.

Nice work CD.


Brings up two of 44's Ten Sports commandments:


- Do it for today, not tomorrow. Ask yourself (players and parents) daily basis "If this ended tomorrrow, was it all worth it. Would we walk away winners?"

- True passion comes from inside and it becomes more true at every level up. Real atheltes don't have to be told, or pushed. They do it because it is who they are and what they do.

44
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I like those two commandments, 44. Share with us the other eight.

There's a lot of hindsite involved with this discussion. I feel that most dedicated young athletes block the "if it ends now" mentality from their minds. IMHO, that's what separates them from the others.

RZ

I think you are right---they know deep down that the time will come someday but they keep driving to take it as far as they can---at the very worst in college they get their degree and go on with their lives


Any you know what--business people like that when they hire a young man who has played ball---it gives the a employee with something special

In the perfect world our kids would be all academically driven, but, in the real world there is no "cookie cutter" mold for the drive and dedication of the soul. My son is a pretty smart kid but his "drive pump" was not built for educational excellence but he realized that in order for him obtain his baseball goals he had to give the best he had to academic side of the puzzle.

When it's all working I look at this as a 3-tiered fountain where baseball is at the top it overflows to the academic tier, which over flows to the post school work/family career, and the big pool at the bottom is the love, inspiration, and drive that some call family that provides the source. An ever flowing family fountain. Some kids have an academic top tier, some, maybe an artistic top, but in the end, the drive that overfills the top tier, fills the others.

When all is said and done, it is the big pool at the bottom that keeps the pump going and I see nothing worse than a non-working fountain, aka the "wishing well", where you pitch pennies hoping for a miracle.

Sorry for the philosophical approach but I was trying to simplify my look of the "big picture". A second "I'm sorry" if this comes off as an attempted thread hijack.

The thing I can't figure out is the limit on number of scholarships. Does that mean that if say Roger Clemens was to fund a scholarship for baseball players at Texas that they couldn't use it? If T. Boone Pickens can give to football, can anyone else give to baseball?

rz1,

Great posts. My son is exactly the same way. He has incorporated a lot of fun things for himself this year. he is going out with his buddies, has a few dates,was part of the loud crowd cheering section for basketball, he has learned to balance and keep his grades up. I too feel that if he can play at the next level and get his degree it will be a great thing.He too has sacrificed a lot. more than a lot of people realize. He has started the season with 4 HR and 17 rbis in 4 games. he is very happy and getting some attention.its a passion that some dont understand and something no parent can install, it comes from the well as you described and it just flows out.Your born with it, every person who is good at something and has worked hard has made sacrifices, but if they love what they are doing then they are living part of their dream. i say dream big,you only get one time a round on this earth, go for the gusto, show the naysayers it can be done.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Any you know what--business people like that when they hire a young man who has played ball---it gives the a employee with something special

Athletes and military people make good employees. They understand winning is the only option. They make good leaders.

A friend's son played college ball before an arm injury ended his career/pro potential. He went into sales. He said guys would be strung out by noon from hearing "No" for half a day on the phone. He said he was so used to baseball being a game of failure he just kept stepping up to the plate until he succeeded.

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The thing I can't figure out is the limit on number of scholarships. Does that mean that if say Roger Clemens was to fund a scholarship for baseball players at Texas that they couldn't use it? If T. Boone Pickens can give to football, can anyone else give to baseball?

No you can't use it or better yet might eliminate his eligibility. If he had won a scholarship for academics, it can be used and would not count against him. It also draws that fine line the NCAA draws regarding amateurism in college sports.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RJM:
Athletes and military people make good employees. They understand winning is the only option. They make good leaders.



They also understand the need/benefits of co-operating with a group of people one might not have neccessarily chosen as friends. They can take criticism, even public criticism, without taking it personally. They understand how much work a worthwhile goal takes. It's a long list.....

re: Hmmm. Did you enjoy spinning it?

mmmm indeed.....Bear

Personally, I felt obligated to edit the quote to include the obligatory s*****r mod, and while I was rushing to leave for an early train this morning, it apparently didn't stick.

Are you a conspiracy theorist?

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:


- True passion comes from inside and it becomes more true at every level up. Real atheltes don't have to be told, or pushed. They do it because it is who they are and what they do.

44
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You got that right O44!!!

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Originally posted by TPM:

No you can't use it or better yet might eliminate his eligibility. If he had won a scholarship for academics, it can be used and would not count against him. It also draws that fine line the NCAA draws regarding amateurism in college sports.

Okay, so how does the scholarship system work? Does the NCAA give the scholarships or does the Athletic Department of the College give them out? It just seems like if the Athletic Department can afford to fully fund (meaning to me, pay full rides to the entire roster) the baseball team, why would the NCAA want to prevent that from happening?

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It just seems like if the Athletic Department can afford to fully fund (meaning to me, pay full rides to the entire roster) the baseball team, why would the NCAA want to prevent that from happening?

#1, because rules-be-rules

and

The devils advocate says those rules might enable at least a little parity. If the scenario you ask about happens, the SEC, ACC, PAC10, and every other high and mighty conference, and elite school where baseball resembles a revenue sport would be even stronger with a full boat of scholly's. There's no way the mid-majors and Northern schools would have a chance to compete. IMHO. Thats if I understood your scenario correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Okay, so how does the scholarship system work? Does the NCAA give the scholarships or does the Athletic Department of the College give them out? It just seems like if the Athletic Department can afford to fully fund (meaning to me, pay full rides to the entire roster) the baseball team, why would the NCAA want to prevent that from happening?

I am not quite sure I follow you, you asked a question I answered regarding awarding athletic scholarhips outside of the institution. You can't do it.

The school awards the scholarship, the NCAA makes the rules.
Athletic departments cannot afford to fund non revenue sports.

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Originally posted by TPM:

I am not quite sure I follow you, you asked a question I answered regarding awarding athletic scholarhips outside of the institution. You can't do it.

The school awards the scholarship, the NCAA makes the rules.
Athletic departments cannot afford to fund non revenue sports.

No, I understood your answer and thanks for that. What I'm trying to figure out is why the rule is the way it is. I don't really buy the Athletic Departments can't afford to fund the non revenue sports argument, since in the article it said that the OSU women's hockey team had a budget of $1.4 million and only brought in $1,600. I would think most Division I baseball teams would bring in more than that at least.

When I look at these guys on TV talking about trying to get more African/Americans back into baseball, I just think full scholarships would do the trick at least help the cause anyway. I mean, you can make up any number of scholarships for academics (lefthanded, blue eyed people under 5' tall), why not baseball if you have the boosters that want to contribute. I just thought the idea of scholarships were to help get kids an education who can't normally pay for them. My Daughter could have had a full ride for playing golf just if she could break 90. What's the difference.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just kind of want it clarified by people who have been around it for a while. I know Ron Polk's side. I'd just like some opinions on the other side or if anyone knows why the NCAA picked the 11.7 number.

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Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

It just seems like if the Athletic Department can afford to fully fund (meaning to me, pay full rides to the entire roster) the baseball team, why would the NCAA want to prevent that from happening?

#1, because rules-be-rules

and

The devils advocate says those rules might enable at least a little parity. If the scenario you ask about happens, the SEC, ACC, PAC10, and every other high and mighty conference, and elite school where baseball resembles a revenue sport would be even stronger with a full boat of scholly's. There's no way the mid-majors and Northern schools would have a chance to compete. IMHO. Thats if I understood your scenario correctly.

Yeah, I can see that, but that's why there is DI, DII, DIII, NAIA and stuff though isn't it? I could see where a school that wanted to could fully fund the baseball team and be a DI in baseball and be a DII or DIII in football or is the Division purely the size of the school?

Fully fund a baseball team and you will have to fully fund every sport......says the Title IX by-law. Nobody wants to jump into that ring.

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Originally posted by rz1:
Fully fund a baseball team and you will have to fully fund every sport......says the Title IX by-law. Nobody wants to jump into that ring.

Okay, thanks! I guess there aren't many schools who could do that, huh?

There are many football programs that make so much money they most likely could fund a whole baseball team, or two, or three and other sports as well. But rules are rules.
On another discussion board I was surprised to find that some of the top bb programs gave very little to players, eveyone got a piece of the 11.7 pie. Some have the philosophy they don't have to give but a small piece, or sometimes nothing.

I do beleive in the NCAA baseball working group there was a discussion about giving full scholarships for baseball, not sure how many, however, it was not a popular proposal for most college coaches, so you might want to ask them. It was shelved for now. I think that some bb coaches don't want to see the playing field evened out.

Some D1 programs don't even fund the 11.7, maybe 4, 5,6 max. The 25% minimum (for 27) was also created to force some schools into using the 11.7 they already have.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
There are many football programs that make so much money they most likely could fund a whole baseball team, or two, or three and other sports as well. But rules are rules.
On another discussion board I was surprised to find that some of the top bb programs gave very little to players, eveyone got a piece of the 11.7 pie. Some have the philosophy they don't have to give but a small piece, or sometimes nothing.

I do beleive in the NCAA baseball working group there was a discussion about giving full scholarships for baseball, not sure how many, however, it was not a popular proposal for most college coaches, so you might want to ask them. It was shelved for now. I think that some bb coaches don't want to see the playing field evened out.

Some D1 programs don't even fund the 11.7, maybe 4, 5,6 max. The 25% minimum (for 27) was also created to force some schools into using the 11.7 they already have.

Thanks for the info!

If Myles Brand and the NCAA really wanted to improve things on campus for all the athletes, the solution would be to reduce football scholarships from a ridiculous 85 to somewhere around 60. The excess amount could go to improving things for baseball players as well as other sports. Would the reduction in football scholarships reduce the revenues brought in by football? No, it possibly could increase them by allowing the second tier schools to improve their rosters because the top schools wouldn't be allowed to stock pile all the top players. This was the result when they reduced basketball scholarships in the John Wooden UCLA era. He used to get all the all americans and the reduced scholarships allowed other schools to compete and improved overall competetive quality.

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Questions...

Reading this thread...I am confused...

...From a strictly legal viewpoint, I do not appreciate, but do understand the reasoning behind not fully funding men's progams in order to balance the Title IX requirements...

...But let me get this right...there are schools who DO NOT fully fund women's sports?...In this age, given the transparency of dollar data, the push for equality, and the litigious nature of society how is this possible? If they are NOT fully fuding women's programs, where are the busloads of lawyers on the "Title IX underfunding gravy train"?

...and correct me if I am wrong, but don't DI schools have to meet certain funding requirements and team levels to qualify for DI? Assuming that this is true, are there schools who claim DI status and fund....nothing?

...and from a practial viewpoint, do theses schools underfund going into DI with a wink and a nod from the NCAA, or do they underfund later and the NCAA chooses to look the other way?

44
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I wonder if it would be productive to have a rule that said to get a full ride scholarship, you had to participate in at least 50% of the games or contests. I wonder how many full scholarships would be given and I wonder if it would more closely define the number of participants needed on any given sports team. I would think that if it was defined that way, that the other participants could be guaranteed at least 50% scholarships. Any thoughts?

Sometimes the bump in the road comes from within the family.

If I was "big brother football" I would be the biggest pain in the arse in regard to letting "Pappa NCAA" rob my piggy bank and split it with the little brothers and sisters. Keeping family peace is one thing, communal, "all for one and one for all" mentality is not an option.

I think football has it's finger on the pulse of the big picture and will never be willing to give up more than it has to.

Would you feel different in football's shoes?

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:
My Daughter could have had a full ride for playing golf just if she could break 90. What's the difference.

Not to veer off topic but that's a myth.

rz is right, no way is big brother football going to give up 20 full scholleys. And no way is the NCAA going to make them, that might cost tem too much money.

I think I am having a junior/senior moment, but D1 class divisions is based on amount of sports at a school not what you fund. I do not think the NCAA forces any school to completely fund.

Doesn't woman's basketball give full scholarships?

Full football scholarships provide scholarships for other sports. On the football team you will find s o c c e r players, track and field, even occasionally a baseball player. Other sports don't reap the benefits of the full football schollies, not true. Someome recently mentionrf haslf trh track and firld players are footballplayers as well.

TPM, I know at SEMO last year their backup kicker/punter was a baseball player. The starting kicker/punter got hurt in a non-related accident and had to miss the season. It's good to have those multi-sport athletes around

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Originally posted by Beezer:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
My Daughter could have had a full ride for playing golf just if she could break 90. What's the difference.

Not to veer off topic but that's a myth.

I'll take your word that it is now, but 10 years ago when my Daughter was a Sophomore in High School, there were over 300 full ride Scholarships for Women's golf that were going unfilled and the only requirement was that they shoot 90 or below.

This article was posted on the Texas forum, but I am posting it here too for a wider reading audience:

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/columnists/jim_reeves/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
This article was posted on the Texas forum, but I am posting it here too for a wider reading audience:

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/columnists/jim_reeves/index.html

This has been my point all along. I would think and 18-22 scholarship number would be more realistic.