bases loaded undiscernable ball/strike call

First of all, an umpire should never, ever, point to first when a walk occurs because of this very situation.

He was very wrong in calling a dead ball, etc. The run should have counted and the runners should have remained on second and third.

There are a couple of bad things about this....

Number One is YOU HAVE TO CALL THE PITCH!!!.........no ifs, ands or buts.........ball or strike......nothing elses goes wrong if the umpire makes this most basic of mechanical efforts.....

everything that happens after this basic umpire mistake is the fault of the umpire....not the players...

Lousy umpiring....period...

I have to disagree with Johntaine....and here is why...

Number TWO...........Do not let your error compound into more wrong...DO NOT score the run.....a little CSFP (Common Sense, Fair Play) here will get things back on an even keel.

Reset the runners back at the bases, bring the batter back to the plate with a 3-2 count.....

I will agree that you should never point to a base to indicate take your base.....Trained umpires only use the right hand point indication for strikes........and the left hand point indication to go to your partner for a ruling on a checked swing....

just my .02

I understand the fair play comment and that is what was explained to me by the tournament director after the game. My biggest concern at the time was the umpire was willing to call my runner out. What would have happened if my runner had not yet crossed home plate and been tagged out? I am willing to bet I would have lost the argument and there would not have been the resume play with 3-2 count situation.

I also spoke with the umpire after the game (he felt really bad and said he probably cost us the game). My hitter struck out on the next pitch and they scored two runs the next inning and went on to win 5-2. I suggested to him that he make a clearer distinction between an outside pitch and strike indication.

The umpire you are describing is not a trained umpire....he is pointing to bases, compounding his error into negatives for the players and now you tell me he is indicating the location of pitches....(another big no/no).........

Nothing you could do in this case....He on the other hand needs to get into an association that offers training, buy a mechanics manual.....and find a mentor who has the proper mechanics.

sorry you had this trouble.

I guess I'm confused. How could R3 be out after crossing the plate? Wouldn't it be the equivalent of stealing home? How could he possibly be called out? Out for what??? Although the ump was obviously bad, I would think he'd call the batter back to the plate, but the runners would have advanced.

there is no justification for calling the runner out........this was a mess....not sure what the umpire was thinking....

It is an axiom that neither team should be put at a disadvantage (insofar as possible) due to an umpire's error. So here, the umpire eventually got it right and 'reset' the field prior to the mistake.
By waiting until all the runners advanced before claiming it was a strike, IMO he has put the burden of the offense's actions upon himself, and thus no one can logically be called out here.

No third out, reset runners, resume at-bat.

That being the case (IMO), I dont see how he 'cost you the game'. A regrettable error by the PU, but he eventually corrected it.

quote:

I have to disagree with Johntaine....and here is why...

Number TWO...........Do not let your error compound into more wrong...DO NOT score the run.....a little CSFP (Common Sense, Fair Play) here will get things back on an even keel.

Reset the runners back at the bases, bring the batter back to the plate with a 3-2 count.....

PIAA,
I respect all of your posts and your wisdom, I completely understand your point but I cannot accept it. An umpire "pointed to first" which as I said above, you should never do. Maybe this umpire knows never to point to first, maybe he actually called a strike. I know these are what-ifs and maybe he really did point to first for a walk the whole game, but if he said he called a strike, he called a strike...that is that...he did not make a mistake...he said the batter made the mistake of running to first...yes, maybe he should have said, "no, that was a strike come back" but the point of the matter is that once a run has legally scored you can't take it off the scoreboard (as you know). Therefore, you can't put the runner back at third, and all you are left with is putting back runners at second and first respectively, and the problem with that is you can't only put back 2/3 runners, that would just not make sense...

patiently awaiting your wisdomed reply...

Johntaine,

I believe the point/no point is of relatively lesser or no importance in comparison to the original cause of all the problem which is an undescernible Ball/Strike Call.........

From the original post all the runners advanced to next base, the catcher had thrown the ball back to pitcher and the batter/runner had reached first. Umpire then instructs batter back to plate saying it was a strike.

The Runner from third has already taken 4 to 5 steps toward dugout after touching home plate -

This Umpire allowed way too much to occur without putting it right....

Compounding the problem He allowed the opposing coach tells pitcher to throw to catcher who tagged the runner who had already crossed home plate.

The Umpire calls runner out....(I have already given my reasons why I feel this is incorrect)

The Umpire then called a dead ball and all runners need to go back to bases and resume play with a 3-2 count on batter.....

It seems he realized his intial error....

And in that is my total case....(and my opinion)

Nothing goes wrong if the umpire in question makes this most basic of mechanical efforts.....

Everything that happens after this basic umpire mistake was the fault of the umpire....not the players...


Using Lonblues post that the long held axiom that neither team should be put at a disadvantage (insofar as possible) due to an umpire's error and adding in a little CSFP was the way to get things back on an even keel.

Reset the runners back at the bases, bring the batter back to the plate with a 3-2 count.....

As to this post and all my posts, I only submit this as my .02.

This sit needs correcting because the players actions are dictated by rule, and the incorrect rule has been applied -

every runner here was entitled to his advance base without peril of put-out due to the 'walk', including the batterrunner. THEN, the umpire changes the ruling from walk to strike - suddenly ALL of the runners were/are in peril of being tagged/forced out for reasons not their own. This is an unfair adv to the defense CAUSED by the umpire himself (mainly due to his idiotic delay....would have been far better to have let the walk stand and bring up the next batter).

You CANNOT let it stand because the batterrunner IS NOT ENTITLED to First Base here. He MUST return to the plate. The other runners ONLY advanced because they thought they were FORCED. This was not the case. To allow outs here based solely on the umpires incompetence would compound an already poor situation and beg for a protest.

and as far as not being able to take runs off the scoreboard, I guess you missed that MLB game a month or so ago in Cleveland where they removed runs off the board......3 INNINGS LATER!

quote:

and as far as not being able to take runs off the scoreboard, I guess you missed that MLB game a month or so ago in Cleveland where they removed runs off the board......3 INNINGS LATER!

LonBlue,
The reason why you can take runs off in the case of that game, which I saw, is that the run which was removed was not a legal score (I forgot for which reason...basically, per baseball rules they were incorrect)...In the case above, although the umpire made a mistake, each runner advanced at the own risk, without knowing it (even though they thought they were being forced), hence, although it is most certainly not fair, the run does count in that you can say it was a "stolen base". Fair, no, but the run did legally score, it did not in the above mentioned MLB game, there's the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by LonBlue67:
This sit needs correcting because the players actions are dictated by rule, and the incorrect rule has been applied -

every runner here was entitled to his advance base without peril of put-out due to the 'walk', including the batterrunner. THEN, the umpire changes the ruling from walk to strike - suddenly ALL of the runners were/are in peril of being tagged/forced out for reasons not their own. This is an unfair adv to the defense CAUSED by the umpire himself (mainly due to his idiotic delay....would have been far better to have let the walk stand and bring up the next batter).

You CANNOT let it stand because the batterrunner IS NOT ENTITLED to First Base here. He MUST return to the plate. The other runners ONLY advanced because they thought they were FORCED. This was not the case. To allow outs here based solely on the umpires incompetence would compound an already poor situation and beg for a protest.

and as far as not being able to take runs off the scoreboard, I guess you missed that MLB game a month or so ago in Cleveland where they removed runs off the board......3 INNINGS LATER!

Unless I missed something I think you are talking about the Orioles game a while back. They actually added runs not took them off. It was a timing play and they enforced it as a force.

ah, well, except for all the details, I got it right