Where do you suggest placing the bat while awaiting the pitch? Vertically so that the know points to the ground, or horizontally so that it is nearly restiing on your shoulder?
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I have been told that horizontal, but not totally horizontal is good, as it shortens the barrel's path to the ball without sacrificing bat speed. That was coming from a former major league hitting coach, and it has worked well for me.
I believe the classic answer is at a 45 degree angle so that, from the pitcher's perspective, it appears to split the batter's helmet in half.
I am going to assume a younger player here; pre LL in age.
45 degree is the classic starting point but it really is one of preference or style. Either true vertical or true horizontal can create holes in the swing for most players...there are exceptions but typical hole in a vertical bat is the upper part of the stikezone and down and in on the flat bat. More advanced players have the ability to adjust the plane of the bat quickly and can get away with more style variation. That's one of the base reasons 45 is a good starting point for younger hitters as they still don't really have that ability to compensate as well yet.
As a player advances towards middle and high school, most start moving the bat more vertical as the ability to handle the lower half of the strikezone becomes more important and the game gets quicker. Basically, come HS a hitter may only get one "hitters pitch" per at-bat so they have to become more skilled hitting pitches down in the zone.
Holding a bat vertical makes it feel lighter versus the horizontal position but can really cause havoc in a young player 's swing as he trys to get the bat on plane with the pitch, particularly at hand level or higher ( younger kids are often taught to put their hands at the top of their strike zone and don't swing at anything above them). If a younger player likes a horizontal position, just make sure he doesn't chicken-wing the lead elbow to where it is higher than the back elbow....way too many problems there to even want to discuss.
Imitating the pros, you'll see bats waving, high steps,etc. from kids that have seen MLB players on TV. Personally, early on with kids I like 45 degree leaning a little horizontal if the kid prefers as I believe it will give him a better starting point to handle the strikezones (typically a little higher)seen at the younger ages. JMHO
45 degree is the classic starting point but it really is one of preference or style. Either true vertical or true horizontal can create holes in the swing for most players...there are exceptions but typical hole in a vertical bat is the upper part of the stikezone and down and in on the flat bat. More advanced players have the ability to adjust the plane of the bat quickly and can get away with more style variation. That's one of the base reasons 45 is a good starting point for younger hitters as they still don't really have that ability to compensate as well yet.
As a player advances towards middle and high school, most start moving the bat more vertical as the ability to handle the lower half of the strikezone becomes more important and the game gets quicker. Basically, come HS a hitter may only get one "hitters pitch" per at-bat so they have to become more skilled hitting pitches down in the zone.
Holding a bat vertical makes it feel lighter versus the horizontal position but can really cause havoc in a young player 's swing as he trys to get the bat on plane with the pitch, particularly at hand level or higher ( younger kids are often taught to put their hands at the top of their strike zone and don't swing at anything above them). If a younger player likes a horizontal position, just make sure he doesn't chicken-wing the lead elbow to where it is higher than the back elbow....way too many problems there to even want to discuss.
Imitating the pros, you'll see bats waving, high steps,etc. from kids that have seen MLB players on TV. Personally, early on with kids I like 45 degree leaning a little horizontal if the kid prefers as I believe it will give him a better starting point to handle the strikezones (typically a little higher)seen at the younger ages. JMHO
quote:That's one of the base reasons 45 is a good starting point for younger hitters as they still don't really have that ability to compensate as well yet.
Abrams, I believe you're mistaken.........They do have the ability......You gotta torque the handle.........Start vertical at any age.....
quote:As a player advances towards middle and high school, most start moving the bat more vertical as the ability to handle the lower half of the strikezone becomes more important and the game gets quicker.
The time to learn is before the game gets quicker, not after.......
quote:More advanced players have the ability to adjust the plane of the bat quickly and can get away with more style variation.
Nah.......Just torque the handle........And, learn to do it at an early age....
Bluedog
Your disagreeing is actually a good thing.
Have you ever taught pre-LL kids (like I was addressing in the post) hitting?
OK, I've got a couple kids here with me that are 7 and 8 years old and they need you to teach them how to torque the bat handle in terms they will understand. And in less than 30 seconds which is the upper limit of their attention span. They know this is a HS message board but came to you looking for help.
Ball is in your court....have at it.
After that, they'll need to be taught bat plane and handling different parts of the strike zone by only torquing the handle.
Your disagreeing is actually a good thing.
Have you ever taught pre-LL kids (like I was addressing in the post) hitting?
OK, I've got a couple kids here with me that are 7 and 8 years old and they need you to teach them how to torque the bat handle in terms they will understand. And in less than 30 seconds which is the upper limit of their attention span. They know this is a HS message board but came to you looking for help.
Ball is in your court....have at it.
After that, they'll need to be taught bat plane and handling different parts of the strike zone by only torquing the handle.
Good point to look for, but is this a cause or effect?quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
If a younger player likes a horizontal position, just make sure he doesn't chicken-wing the lead elbow to where it is higher than the back elbow....way too many problems there to even want to discuss.
I'm less concerned w/ where they hold their hands during their stance than where they do so and where the bat knob is pointing at launch (after their stride). One of THE top issues I've seen in filming numerous youth hitters is letting the bat go horizontal during the stride (bat knob facing opposite batter's box and barrel perpendicular to their back). IMO, this creates a loooooong radius for the bat barrel to have to travel.
I try to have them arrive at launch w/ the knob pointing somewhere around their back foot toes - maybe a little behind (towards catcher) and away (towards oppo batter's box). This tends to keep the bat in the momentum path of the shoulders as they turn and bring the bat around. When they let the bat barrel drop to horizontal early (knob facing almost directly across to oppo batter's box), they may indeed get more power (because of the longer time to increase batspeed); however, IMO, their bat quickness suffers.
Of course, on higher pitches, a flatter bat is not as much of an issue.
My 2 cents.
Sandman,
No argument there.
What I see with the high chicken wing front elbow (much higher than the back elbow...no, I'm not advocating a high back elbow)with younger hitters is that the very thing that happens is the barrel of the bat drops well below horizontal during the stride, back shoulder drops badly and they cast the bat and end up with a long slow swing that is off plane related to pitch location.
I personally preferred a vertcal bat position as I like pitches down in the zone and tended to lay off anything at hand level. Just always felt I was able to get the barrel on plane better from that position for the lower pitches. Knee top to belly button was the area that I liked the most. No, I wasn't HR hitter with those locations...but then again I wasn't a HR threat in any location.
No argument there.
What I see with the high chicken wing front elbow (much higher than the back elbow...no, I'm not advocating a high back elbow)with younger hitters is that the very thing that happens is the barrel of the bat drops well below horizontal during the stride, back shoulder drops badly and they cast the bat and end up with a long slow swing that is off plane related to pitch location.
I personally preferred a vertcal bat position as I like pitches down in the zone and tended to lay off anything at hand level. Just always felt I was able to get the barrel on plane better from that position for the lower pitches. Knee top to belly button was the area that I liked the most. No, I wasn't HR hitter with those locations...but then again I wasn't a HR threat in any location.
quote:.......they'll need to be taught bat plane and handling different parts of the strike zone by only torquing the handle.
This is the ticket.....But, you will only be able to teach this if you are able to feel it by swinging a bat, IMO.........
If you haven't felt it, I don't believe you can recognize it, or teach it.....I just don't know how that would be possible......
It's about controlling the barrel of the bat with the hands.....It's how to square up the barrel of the bat with the ball and with alot of batspeed no matter where it's pitched.......
Connecting to the shoulders can't do it because it's too slow for faster than average pitching......And, posture adjustments for pitch location can only do so much.......And, it doesn't allow for late swing adjustments........
Create the arc of the bat with hand torque, then carry the arc forward to the ball.....It's like a slip clutch that catches a gear when you want it to......
Ok then... TEACH it please. Right here. Tell us how you would convey this to a 13YO hitter, seeing they can't feel YOU do it.
BlueDog,
Ok, now I understand....kinda like a "may the force be with you" type of thing but even tougher to come by because Yoda could train someone to be a Jedi. "Genetic in nature, this torque thing must be."
I guess my clutch is slipping and I'm grinding gears...can't find 'em, grind 'em.
Forget teaching (obviously not gonna happen)the great unwashed. Try this... grip a bat so that if you hold it vertically in front of you with outstretched arms the label will be directly facing you. Without changing your grip on the bat, take it back up and get ready for a pitch. Start the swing...where is the label facing? At launch position (ohh ohh) where is the label facing? At 2 feet before contact? At contact? At one foot after contact? Torque is happening so something must be happening with the label.
If you could tell me this, I might figure out what page I'm supposed to be on.
Something tells me I've got a better shot at seeing Nessie swimming at Loch Ness...this is like giving CPR to the dead horse I've been beating on.
Ok, now I understand....kinda like a "may the force be with you" type of thing but even tougher to come by because Yoda could train someone to be a Jedi. "Genetic in nature, this torque thing must be."
I guess my clutch is slipping and I'm grinding gears...can't find 'em, grind 'em.
Forget teaching (obviously not gonna happen)the great unwashed. Try this... grip a bat so that if you hold it vertically in front of you with outstretched arms the label will be directly facing you. Without changing your grip on the bat, take it back up and get ready for a pitch. Start the swing...where is the label facing? At launch position (ohh ohh) where is the label facing? At 2 feet before contact? At contact? At one foot after contact? Torque is happening so something must be happening with the label.
If you could tell me this, I might figure out what page I'm supposed to be on.
Something tells me I've got a better shot at seeing Nessie swimming at Loch Ness...this is like giving CPR to the dead horse I've been beating on.
I have to say that for LL 45 degrees is a good starting point. At that level the strike zone can vary greatly from ump to ump and you have to be able to hit the high pitch as well as the low pitch.
However, as you progress up the ladder I personally feel that you have to go more vertical at each step and almost vertical when you reach the Majors. My reasoning is that the strike zone continues to get lower until it reaches the belt in the Majors and to hit the low inside pitch at the knees you have to start almost vertical. Take a look at most good MLB hitters and they almost all start almost vertical.
However, as you progress up the ladder I personally feel that you have to go more vertical at each step and almost vertical when you reach the Majors. My reasoning is that the strike zone continues to get lower until it reaches the belt in the Majors and to hit the low inside pitch at the knees you have to start almost vertical. Take a look at most good MLB hitters and they almost all start almost vertical.
quote:Originally posted by Michael'sDad:
I have to say that for LL 45 degrees is a good starting point. At that level the strike zone can vary greatly from ump to ump and you have to be able to hit the high pitch as well as the low pitch.
However, as you progress up the ladder I personally feel that you have to go more vertical at each step and almost vertical when you reach the Majors. My reasoning is that the strike zone continues to get lower until it reaches the belt in the Majors and to hit the low inside pitch at the knees you have to start almost vertical. Take a look at most good MLB hitters and they almost all start almost vertical.
I would say it's optimal, but not neccessary. Mel Ott hit pretty well completely horizontal. Pujols and Ripkin did pretty well in a more horizontal plane at some points in their careers in the MLB. It is what I teach, but if a hitter is successful I wouldn't change them. That means successful on all pitches.
Connecting the hands and arms to the shoulders and allowing the shoulders to power the swing produces torque.....
Bypassing the shoulders and allowing the hands to power the swing produces torque.....
But, each of these torques has a different effect on the path of the bat.....How the torque is produced is important......It makes a difference in the swing..........
If the shoulders power, the hands go horizontal together.....
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
Bypassing the shoulders and allowing the hands to power the swing produces torque.....
But, each of these torques has a different effect on the path of the bat.....How the torque is produced is important......It makes a difference in the swing..........
If the shoulders power, the hands go horizontal together.....
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
The hands are torquing the bat handle as the shoulders are stayng put.....The arc is being created, then carried forward with the hands.....The hands are controlling the barrel of the bat.....The back elbow does what the hands dictate........The shoulders are by-passed.....
One of these hitters powers with the shoulders and hands go horizontal together.......
Another:
Dog, which, if any, of these three swings are you suggesting is a model to be emulated?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
One powers with the shoulders and hands go horizontal together.......
Another:
Bluedog,
Very good descriptions and explainations. Thanks!
It's not about the bat label.......It's about what the hands are doing......It's about what's controlling the bat barrel.....
BlueDog,
Better...much better.
It's not about the label but the hands...correct. The label position wil just simply always tell what the the hands are doing to achieve a certain position. An old school teaching tidbit used back in the 40'/50's...not **** enough for today's crowd.
Whoever decided to use the word "torque" as a reference word for what is happening to the bat sure opened a can of worms. Wish they'd picked up a dictionary first. Example is the kid with the white t-shirt....I see a complete absence of torque. Others will see something they call "torque".
Better...much better.
It's not about the label but the hands...correct. The label position wil just simply always tell what the the hands are doing to achieve a certain position. An old school teaching tidbit used back in the 40'/50's...not **** enough for today's crowd.
Whoever decided to use the word "torque" as a reference word for what is happening to the bat sure opened a can of worms. Wish they'd picked up a dictionary first. Example is the kid with the white t-shirt....I see a complete absence of torque. Others will see something they call "torque".
There are those who have a lot of knowledge and experience in this area, who maintain that the hands are basically a hinge and that the power is generated by the core through the shoulders and arms. When I questioned this assertion I was told that if everything else is done properly, the hands' function is to "hang on to the **** bat".
Now, I'm a bit of an agnostic on the whole question, but it does seem to me that concentrating on hand torque can be misleading. After all, those wrist and hand muscles will never be as strong as the core, shoulder and arm muscles. If anything, concentrating on hand torque would tend to adversely affect the swing plane and consequently the power of the swing.
The pics of No.5 above is a pretty good illustration of a good swing. Notice, his entire body from the hips up is rotating as a unit. The bat is entering into the swing plane with his shoulders and front arm because of the momentum created by the body, not the hands. I agree that the hands should be horizontal, but I don't really see that as torquing the bat. The hands are essentially transmitting that core power to the bat.
Dog, since I don't really understand what you're trying to describe, do you think we are saying the same thing or something different?
Now, I'm a bit of an agnostic on the whole question, but it does seem to me that concentrating on hand torque can be misleading. After all, those wrist and hand muscles will never be as strong as the core, shoulder and arm muscles. If anything, concentrating on hand torque would tend to adversely affect the swing plane and consequently the power of the swing.
The pics of No.5 above is a pretty good illustration of a good swing. Notice, his entire body from the hips up is rotating as a unit. The bat is entering into the swing plane with his shoulders and front arm because of the momentum created by the body, not the hands. I agree that the hands should be horizontal, but I don't really see that as torquing the bat. The hands are essentially transmitting that core power to the bat.
Dog, since I don't really understand what you're trying to describe, do you think we are saying the same thing or something different?
bbdoug,
See why I hate the word torque.
My assessment of BlueDog's torque or what I think he's calling torque is the rotation of the bat that occurs as the back elbow is going to the slot position as the top hand is working it's way under the bat to eventually match the bottom hand in a horizontal position. If that ain't it, get a GPS cause I'm lost. If he's calling torque what Mankin calls torque then then we have a huge language barrier.
You mention #5's pictures...I agree with you that there is no way the hands are the main engine/power of the swing. But the hands are important in controlling the power the core generates and timing how the power is released. See some kids that are so focused on core rotation they simply let the shoulder/arms/hands get carried along for the ride....just a dead swing.
I tend to encourage hitters to think hips and hands firing/moving together at the start of the swing. Back hip and hands will look like their joined as they move in unison with the hands passing the back hip as they approach the hitting area ( yeah, that's a vague description that probably doesn't make sense...look at Ortiz and #5, that may help see what I'm trying to say). I don't want them to think hands specifically...more like moving the backside of the body together.
Can anyone translate Greek because we're heading there...
See why I hate the word torque.
My assessment of BlueDog's torque or what I think he's calling torque is the rotation of the bat that occurs as the back elbow is going to the slot position as the top hand is working it's way under the bat to eventually match the bottom hand in a horizontal position. If that ain't it, get a GPS cause I'm lost. If he's calling torque what Mankin calls torque then then we have a huge language barrier.
You mention #5's pictures...I agree with you that there is no way the hands are the main engine/power of the swing. But the hands are important in controlling the power the core generates and timing how the power is released. See some kids that are so focused on core rotation they simply let the shoulder/arms/hands get carried along for the ride....just a dead swing.
I tend to encourage hitters to think hips and hands firing/moving together at the start of the swing. Back hip and hands will look like their joined as they move in unison with the hands passing the back hip as they approach the hitting area ( yeah, that's a vague description that probably doesn't make sense...look at Ortiz and #5, that may help see what I'm trying to say). I don't want them to think hands specifically...more like moving the backside of the body together.
Can anyone translate Greek because we're heading there...
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
How is it possible for the bottom hand to get to horizontal before the top hand when both hands are holding onto a rigid, straight bat handle?
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
bbdoug,
See why I hate the word torque.
My assessment of BlueDog's torque or what I think he's calling torque is the rotation of the bat that occurs as the back elbow is going to the slot position as the top hand is working it's way under the bat to eventually match the bottom hand in a horizontal position. If that ain't it, get a GPS cause I'm lost. If he's calling torque what Mankin calls torque then then we have a huge language barrier.
You mention #5's pictures...I agree with you that there is no way the hands are the main engine/power of the swing. But the hands are important in controlling the power the core generates and timing how the power is released. See some kids that are so focused on core rotation they simply let the shoulder/arms/hands get carried along for the ride....just a dead swing.
I tend to encourage hitters to think hips and hands firing/moving together at the start of the swing. Back hip and hands will look like their joined as they move in unison with the hands passing the back hip as they approach the hitting area ( yeah, that's a vague description that probably doesn't make sense...look at Ortiz and #5, that may help see what I'm trying to say). I don't want them to think hands specifically...more like moving the backside of the body together.
Can anyone translate Greek because we're heading there...
You are talking about torque in two different areas. There is a reason why Chameleon talked about hand torque being "the second engine." The hips are torqueing and the hands are torqueing. The second engine is needed for a high level swing (low to upper 90s and hard breaking balls). If you send the hands and the hips forward at the same time, you lose power and adjustability. You can wait much longer to decide to swing if you torque the bat with the hands. Chameleon showed a drill he uses called the "snap the pole off drill" that finally got it for me. The barrel blur shown in the top right clip is what you look for on video. Tape yourself swinging and look for this blur. In the clips of the kids here, they drop the bat to flat before the barrel ever moves forward and pull the bat along that line with the barrel being behind their back. The sweetspot has to travel much farther to get to the ball, which still can create power, but they will have to start the swing much earlier. This is what people refer to as a long swing.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Connecting the hands and arms to the shoulders and allowing the shoulders to power the swing produces torque.....
Bypassing the shoulders and allowing the hands to power the swing produces torque.....
But, each of these torques has a different effect on the path of the bat.....How the torque is produced is important......It makes a difference in the swing..........
If the shoulders power, the hands go horizontal together.....
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
bluedog,
How exactly do the hands go horizontal at different times? Are they not both holding on to a relatively rigid object that should cause them to achieve the same orientation at the same time? Regardless of whether you participate in the mythical shoulder bypass or not.
S.Abrams -
Thanks for your interpretation. I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by BlueDog's description.
I agree with your interpretation. The way I visualize it is that the hands' primary purpose is to not let the bat stray out of the swing plane. Of course, all bets are off if you're fooled by the pitch and need to adjust midswing, or if you're just trying to slap a ball to right field in a hit and run.
quote:I agree with you that there is no way the hands are the main engine/power of the swing. But the hands are important in controlling the power the core generates and timing how the power is released.
Thanks for your interpretation. I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by BlueDog's description.
I agree with your interpretation. The way I visualize it is that the hands' primary purpose is to not let the bat stray out of the swing plane. Of course, all bets are off if you're fooled by the pitch and need to adjust midswing, or if you're just trying to slap a ball to right field in a hit and run.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Connecting the hands and arms to the shoulders and allowing the shoulders to power the swing produces torque.....
Bypassing the shoulders and allowing the hands to power the swing produces torque.....
But, each of these torques has a different effect on the path of the bat.....How the torque is produced is important......It makes a difference in the swing..........
If the shoulders power, the hands go horizontal together.....
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
bluedog,
How exactly do the hands go horizontal at different times? Are they not both holding on to a relatively rigid object that should cause them to achieve the same orientation at the same time? Regardless of whether you participate in the mythical shoulder bypass or not.
Please look at the slow motion clip of Ortiz. If you do you will see that his bottom hand is moving horizontally before the bat is horizontal and therefore the top hand. Yes, I thought that was impossible too awhile back.
powertoallfields,
Thinking hips and hands is what I want them to think as a verbal cue. Look at the picture of Ortiz and #5. If the seperation is good, the hands already are behind the hips and have to catch up. Nothing happens as far as the hips until the left heel plants.Hands do not release at the start of the swing. Look at Vlad's swing; he is not releasing the bat towards the ball at any point in that clip. If he releases the bat to start the swing, he would not be able to ever check swing. His hands are starting at the same time the hips and are playing catchup. Wrist **** is still present while he moves the barrel on plane; some wrist **** is lost during seperation but bat is not released.
Look at the kids...hands first move is down and not forward. Hands never catch up to hips entering the hitting zone. Serious bat drag with rear elbow leading the hands.
Read too much from Chameleon...throwing and hitting...great advice for slow pitch softball or the batting cage.
Thinking hips and hands is what I want them to think as a verbal cue. Look at the picture of Ortiz and #5. If the seperation is good, the hands already are behind the hips and have to catch up. Nothing happens as far as the hips until the left heel plants.Hands do not release at the start of the swing. Look at Vlad's swing; he is not releasing the bat towards the ball at any point in that clip. If he releases the bat to start the swing, he would not be able to ever check swing. His hands are starting at the same time the hips and are playing catchup. Wrist **** is still present while he moves the barrel on plane; some wrist **** is lost during seperation but bat is not released.
Look at the kids...hands first move is down and not forward. Hands never catch up to hips entering the hitting zone. Serious bat drag with rear elbow leading the hands.
Read too much from Chameleon...throwing and hitting...great advice for slow pitch softball or the batting cage.
quote:Look at the kids...hands first move is down and not forward. Hands never catch up to hips entering the hitting zone. Serious bat drag with rear elbow leading the hands.
Abrams, you're not doing so well with these statements........
[QUOTE]Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Nothing happens as far as the hips until the left heel plants.Hands do not release at the start of the swing.
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hitzone/BarryTed.gif
You are saying nothing is happening with the hips until the front heel lands??? The hands load against the opening hips, do they not?
Nothing happens as far as the hips until the left heel plants.Hands do not release at the start of the swing.
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hitzone/BarryTed.gif
You are saying nothing is happening with the hips until the front heel lands??? The hands load against the opening hips, do they not?
Saw the clips of Bonds and Williams...I'll stand by the verbal cue for a rotational swing. Hands and hips are moving together in those clips with hands loading with the stride.
You will see both with the bat tilted towards the pitcher and as they stide bring it back to vertical before they start the swing. Hitter like Kaline,Mantle and others didn't have this bat tilt. It's an individual style as are Sheffield's machinations.
If what Ortiz is doing in the clip is torque, that's what I said in an earlier post.
As far as the kids...their swings haven't changed since yesterday. Drag may have even gotten worse. Rear elbow leading the hands is never a good thing.
This stuff has been around forever so we aren't re-inventing the wheel or said things that are new to the game. The words have changed but not the swings.
It's the words that cause confusion not the swings. That and new gurus trying to make a buck with new jargon. Torque, CHP, THT, BHT, 2nd engine,etc....new words for something that been around the block before we all were born.
You will see both with the bat tilted towards the pitcher and as they stide bring it back to vertical before they start the swing. Hitter like Kaline,Mantle and others didn't have this bat tilt. It's an individual style as are Sheffield's machinations.
If what Ortiz is doing in the clip is torque, that's what I said in an earlier post.
As far as the kids...their swings haven't changed since yesterday. Drag may have even gotten worse. Rear elbow leading the hands is never a good thing.
This stuff has been around forever so we aren't re-inventing the wheel or said things that are new to the game. The words have changed but not the swings.
It's the words that cause confusion not the swings. That and new gurus trying to make a buck with new jargon. Torque, CHP, THT, BHT, 2nd engine,etc....new words for something that been around the block before we all were born.
quote:Saw the clips of Bonds and Williams...I'll stand by the verbal cue for a rotational swing. Hands and hips are moving together in those clips with hands loading with the stride.
I'm with you S.Abrams. The swing is an explosive move with the upper body and hands moving as a unit, that begins at foot plant.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Connecting the hands and arms to the shoulders and allowing the shoulders to power the swing produces torque.....
Bypassing the shoulders and allowing the hands to power the swing produces torque.....
But, each of these torques has a different effect on the path of the bat.....How the torque is produced is important......It makes a difference in the swing..........
If the shoulders power, the hands go horizontal together.....
If the hands power and do the torquing actively, the bottom hand will get to horizontal before the top hand........
bluedog,
How exactly do the hands go horizontal at different times? Are they not both holding on to a relatively rigid object that should cause them to achieve the same orientation at the same time? Regardless of whether you participate in the mythical shoulder bypass or not.
Please look at the slow motion clip of Ortiz. If you do you will see that his bottom hand is moving horizontally before the bat is horizontal and therefore the top hand. Yes, I thought that was impossible too awhile back.
Powertoallfields/Richard,
I asked bluedog. He always makes these statements and then ignores you when you ask a simple question. As to your answer, it leads by what .00001ms? Don't be ridiculous. Everyone who swings the bat at all well gets to that position. You continually try to find some obscure detail and act as if you've discovered the Holy Grail. If bluedog wasn't slightly more civil, I'd swear he was another of your alter egos.
For what it's worth, you are being extremely civil, for you. Let's see how long it lasts.
quote:Originally posted by bbdoug:quote:Saw the clips of Bonds and Williams...I'll stand by the verbal cue for a rotational swing. Hands and hips are moving together in those clips with hands loading with the stride.
I'm with you S.Abrams. The swing is an explosive move with the upper body and hands moving as a unit, that begins at foot plant.
The hands go back as the stride goes out and hips open, but the hand torque keeps the separation longer which makes for a shorter swing.
S. Abrams,
I never said hitters haven't always done these things, but to teach it you have to knw what's happening and be able to tell the hitter how to recreate it. If not, they can just sit and watch video and try to emmulate someone's swing or parts of a few different ones.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
powertoallfields,
Thinking hips and hands is what I want them to think as a verbal cue. Look at the picture of Ortiz and #5. If the seperation is good, the hands already are behind the hips and have to catch up. Nothing happens as far as the hips until the left heel plants.Hands do not release at the start of the swing. Look at Vlad's swing; he is not releasing the bat towards the ball at any point in that clip. If he releases the bat to start the swing, he would not be able to ever check swing. His hands are starting at the same time the hips and are playing catchup. Wrist **** is still present while he moves the barrel on plane; some wrist **** is lost during seperation but bat is not released.
Look at the kids...hands first move is down and not forward. Hands never catch up to hips entering the hitting zone. Serious bat drag with rear elbow leading the hands.
Read too much from Chameleon...throwing and hitting...great advice for slow pitch softball or the batting cage.
I agree with your accertion of hips and hands, but to say that nothing happens with the hips until foot plant is just wrong. A prime example is Pujols, who has no stride. Watch his front knee and hips going into heel plant. I agree that the back knee drive doesn't happen until heel plant, but it is turning as well.
As far as bat drag and this swing (hand torque) it again is just not true. The bat head is already moving before the upper body starts to unload, without it, the bat head isn't moving until the upper body unloads.
Below is the best clip of what is taking place, IMO.
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Posadasidebyside.gif
