Batspeed and power in scouting

Pro scouts have 2 difficulties in scouting.

1. the bat 2. the heart.

There is no short cut, but constant evaluation over many games maybe the answer. When I watched the Seattle Mariners from the dugout during BP, John Olerud was impressive as his bat was effortless and the ball jumped on contact. John never played in the minor leagues and after signing from Washington State went directly to Blue Jays.

Bobhttp://goodwillseries.org/

Dominik85 posted:

"he doesn't have the batspeed to catch up to plus fastballs"

Translation: I (the scout) don't know what I'm talking about, but if I did, I would say that the hitter does not start soon enough on each swing.

If it's just batspeed, then why are many HR hitters the big guys? Because big guys generate more batpseed than smaller guys, or because size, and strength are part of the equation?

E = MC2

If two players have the same batspeed, and hit the ball at the same angle, but one is much bigger and stronger, does he put greater distance on the same hit?

If Prince Fielder dropped 50+lbs and greatly increased his footspeed and overall quickness, would he also potentially increase his batspeed due to a reduction in overall bodymass? Maybe - maybe not?  Would he have more power? My guess is no.

If Prince Fielder dropped 50 lbs. he would still be 50 more away from a decent playing weight.  And no, he wouldn't have greater bat speed, but maybe he could increase that total of 2 singles to right field on the season with a little more foot speed?

Two2020'sForMe posted:

If Prince Fielder dropped 50 lbs. he would still be 50 more away from a decent playing weight.  And no, he wouldn't have greater bat speed, but maybe he could increase that total of 2 singles to right field on the season with a little more foot speed?

Let's take a more normal example. Will Kris Bryant have more homerun power if he gains muscle, strength and added body weight?

People always fail to realize that the weight of the bat does offer resistance. The stronger player can move that weight faster than a weaker one. Two pounds may not seem like much but when you are trying to get the barrel up over 90mph all the sudden that two pounds is pretty significant. The stronger you are the quicker you can get it going and the more bat speed you can generate. Plus the strong guy can swing a heavier bat and while that is not nearly as large a factor as bat speed it is a factor none the less. Also a longer bat. This is a much bigger factor than you may at first think. Like a bicycle tire going faster in the outside than inside the longer the bat the faster the sweet spot moves. So lots of factors but all equal stronger is better. 

SultanofSwat posted:

Dominik85 posted:

"he doesn't have the batspeed to catch up to plus fastballs"

Translation: I (the scout) don't know what I'm talking about, but if I did, I would say that the hitter does not start soon enough on each swing.

Not starting soon enough would be recognition and reaction rather than bat speed.

Mike Diaz, Pirates had two bats one for hitting off Dwight Gooden [it was like a fungo bat] and his bat for hitting off average pitchers.

Bob

did that actually work for Mike Diaz?

Yes, it did. He had several years with the Pirates and later Japan. We conducted clinics together. Mike is a good teacher.

Bob

Stafford posted:

If it's just batspeed, then why are many HR hitters the big guys? Because big guys generate more batpseed than smaller guys, or because size, and strength are part of the equation?

E = MC2

If two players have the same batspeed, and hit the ball at the same angle, but one is much bigger and stronger, does he put greater distance on the same hit?

If Prince Fielder dropped 50+lbs and greatly increased his footspeed and overall quickness, would he also potentially increase his batspeed due to a reduction in overall bodymass? Maybe - maybe not?  Would he have more power? My guess is no.

 

I don't know what relativity has to do with it but in f=ma the greater mass with equal bat speed will produce more force. The question then becomes does the mass of the hitter transfer into the mass of the bat. If so the bigger the hitter the more power even with less bat speed. If not then bat speed is all that should matter. I've never seen a theory or study to prove either way. One observation (I can't remember where it was from) shot balls into a bat with both the bat in a vice as well as just hanging from a string. The force was the same. The conclusion was drawn that the bat could be released at contact and it wouldn't effect the power. Problem is with that experiment is the velocity of the bat was 0 and anything times 0 = 0 so the mass was irrelivent. 

It wasn't a scientific study. No control group. No controlled environment. But last summer a friend of mine got a high speed camera for ballistics work. He wanted to play with it so we spent the day at the ball field. With a high speed camera (so pretty accurate) my son and I had the same bat speed within a mph or two on 20 swings each. Thing is his best shot was about 280. I hit a dozen out between 315 and 350. He was 5'10 130 at the time. I was 6'3" 265.  Again not scientific but definitely made me wonder. Maybe I just hit it better maybe my greater mass was the difference. I don't know. 

The boy wants to be a phycisist. I told him I'd help out with the cost of grad school if he'd at some point answer this question for me lol. It been bugging me for years. 

Scotty83: I like your experiment. When I was in middle school, our science teacher weighed us and then had us run up the steps as fast we could. Each person was timed individually. So, if two people had the same time, the heavier person produced the most power. As it turned out, the fastest time was also produced by one of the biggest kids. He would later be a D1 linebacker so  I guess it made sense that he produced the most power/energy.

Scotty83 posted:

Stafford posted:

If it's just batspeed, then why are many HR hitters the big guys? Because big guys generate more batpseed than smaller guys, or because size, and strength are part of the equation?

E = MC2

If two players have the same batspeed, and hit the ball at the same angle, but one is much bigger and stronger, does he put greater distance on the same hit?

If Prince Fielder dropped 50+lbs and greatly increased his footspeed and overall quickness, would he also potentially increase his batspeed due to a reduction in overall bodymass? Maybe - maybe not?  Would he have more power? My guess is no.

 

I don't know what relativity has to do with it but in f=ma the greater mass with equal bat speed will produce more force. The question then becomes does the mass of the hitter transfer into the mass of the bat. If so the bigger the hitter the more power even with less bat speed. If not then bat speed is all that should matter. I've never seen a theory or study to prove either way. One observation (I can't remember where it was from) shot balls into a bat with both the bat in a vice as well as just hanging from a string. The force was the same. The conclusion was drawn that the bat could be released at contact and it wouldn't effect the power. Problem is with that experiment is the velocity of the bat was 0 and anything times 0 = 0 so the mass was irrelivent. 

It wasn't a scientific study. No control group. No controlled environment. But last summer a friend of mine got a high speed camera for ballistics work. He wanted to play with it so we spent the day at the ball field. With a high speed camera (so pretty accurate) my son and I had the same bat speed within a mph or two on 20 swings each. Thing is his best shot was about 280. I hit a dozen out between 315 and 350. He was 5'10 130 at the time. I was 6'3" 265.  Again not scientific but definitely made me wonder. Maybe I just hit it better maybe my greater mass was the difference. I don't know. 

The boy wants to be a phycisist. I told him I'd help out with the cost of grad school if he'd at some point answer this question for me lol. It been bugging me for years. 

The way I see it, it's a very complex question and not just an issue for bat speed and the mass of a bat or the hitter.  You also have to account for exactly where the ball comes off the bat as the transfer of energy will vary with small differences in location resulting in differences in energy transfer.  Along with that there's the spin the the ball that can also vary depending on the exact contact location of contact on the bat AND the ball's seams will have different affects on carry just as it does with a pitcher's movement when thrown.  Also, there's the vector for the angle of the force at contact where you have a bat coming in at an angle and a pitched ball coming in at an angle and at contact the vector for transfer of energy can easily be different.  I'm sure experiments could be set up to really get the answer if one can't just do the complex math.  I would say that the physics involved is actually pretty complex.

But, I think golf tends to answer the question for me for what affects exit speed off a bat most.  A longer bat will be heavier and the sweet spot further out from the hands and that additional length can produce higher bat speed at the point of contact if the player is strong enough to handle the larger/longer bat.  Bigger players that are strong will tend to have longer arms producing more leverage and bat speed just due to their size and add a longer/bigger bat and you can get some pretty good bat speed with such combination to produce good exit speed.