BESR Questions

Robert, i've seen your son hit. he could use any bat and he would hit it hard somewhere.
we played against HIM in a wood bat league, he had no problem with the wood.What hS will he go to?

I don't have an answer, but an observation that adds to my own confusion.

Until this year USC was "sponsored" by Louisville. The have access to the whole product line, yet the vast majority of their players (and other Louisville schools I've noticed such as Stanford) use the Omaha model which is the least expensive bat in the Louisville college/high school series.

A few guys will use the Gen1X or Response, which are more expensive than the Omaha. I've never seen one player use any "Air" model which are more expensive still. The Armour is the most expensive Louisville model, but that has just come out and I'm waiting to see who's using it, if anyone.

(won't be able to tell with USC though, 'cause they've switched to Nike all the way for this coming year and IMO Nike gloves and bats are garbage.)

So if these players have free use of any bat in the product line, why are they using the least expensive model.

My personal conclusion is that metal bats and their marketing and pricing are a complete rip off and the performance differences are negligible (although I will admit I've seen the Armour model used and maybe it's just the sound it makes, but the ball seems to a have a little more zip coming off that bat, It may be just the coating that is supposed to have some form of ceramic in it and perhaps that makes a more "explosive" sound).

Robert,

The BESR is an upper limit. The test results are not released. Certainly possible some bats are as close as possible to the limit while others are well below. Other things that may make it feel better/worse are the balance point, grip diameter, how solid it feels on contact. Nick

I had the same question and did some research and here is what I found. The BESR limit is measured from where the baseball comes off the sweet spot. More expensive bats have a larger sweet spot. In addition the more expensive bats claim to have less vibration/sting and are more durable.

As an experiment I had my son throw balls up in the air and hit them with several different bats and the more expensive bats definitely had more pop with the balls flying about 15 to 20 feet further on average. All bats used were the same size and high school BESR certified.

Robert, you discovered the industry's dirty little secret.

NickKio, the manufacturers had to tone down their bats to meet the BESR. It is not a matter of trying to get their bats up to the BESR. All the bats are at the BESR limit.

The BESR is a measure of "pop" (e.g., exit velocity of the ball off the bat), so all the bats have the same pop. Throwing up the ball in the air & hitting it is not a repeatable experiment. There would be so many varying factors that any results of this exercise are meaningless.

Maybe the more expensive bats have a bigger sweet spot. Maybe not. That would require some good analysis. The sweetspot on an aluminum bat is so huge already, I don't think there would be a significant difference here.

So why pay more? Same pop. Same BESR. They all have huge sweetspots.

Difference in sting? Could be. Although my son hasn't found a correlation in sting reduction & price. Maybe other have.

More durable? Now this could be a factor. But no bat seems to last my son more than 6 months before denting, whether it is an Octane, Triple 7 or Titanium model. We warranty replace every bat twice.

In BESR certified bats, we go for the cheapest Easton (had bad luck years ago with Louisville denting very quickly, & haven't been able to buy one since) closeout we can find.

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." Sandy Koufax

DITTO

What Texan said....

I posted a link to the BESR certification process on another thread.

Here are some links...http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance/sports_and_rules_ctees/playing_rules/baseball/BESRWhitePaper.pdf

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance/sports_and_rules_ctees/playing_rules/baseball/batstandards

http://www.ncaa.org/releases/miscellaneous/1999/1999092901ms.htm

Texan,

I’ll stand by what I said. The BESR is an upper limit. The exit speed must fall at or below that limit. My son has a BESR certified Easton Hammer made from CU-31 aluminum. He also has a Triple 7. There is no way these two bats have the same exit velocity. We use both in batting practice and he consistently hits the ball further with the Triple 7. There is no way Easton had to tone down the Hammer to get a BESR stamp on it. Nick

Well since I did say DITTO to Texan....

HAMMER...???? The Hammer is Easton's Bottom of the line Cheap bat.... that Easton's own WEBSITE rates as a BEGINNER's bat.... in the "VAULE" category. I wouldn't consider that a VARSITY HS bat.

So yes that one may not meet the top end BESR performance level. My players consider the Black Magic and Hammer TOYS.....

What's funny is the 777 model which used to be the one of the TOP bats is now... according to Easton's own website... only Top end of the intermediate category. Replaced by the 888. (Wow how the mighty has fallen... )
But the 888 costs $200+ and I just bought a 777 for $89.

I seriouly doubt my son will get 2.5 times the performance out of a new 888 than a new last year's model 777.

It was purchased before Christmas... I'll try to find the link to the website... and Post it.

The 777 is an excellent bat and at $89 I think you made a wise purchase.

My son's HS team did not like the 888.

Several on my younger son's team have had success with 777 models (lighter than -3 though).

I too would jump on the 777 at that price.

SBDD,

The question the poster asked was whether a cheaper BESR certified bat will suffice. No additional info was provided. I made the case it may not. Texan (and you?) made the case it will. The Hammer and Black Magic (as examples) are sold at Sports Authority. They are cheap BESR certified bats (as opposed to a one time top of the line model now sold at a discount). Given that, I consider them a legitimate purchasing option. Your players consider them toys and I contend they don’t have as much pop. So we agree: a cheaper BESR certified bat may not suffice. However, if Texan is right and they are all the same, then you, your players and I are spending too much money even at $89. Nick

The big difference between Bats like the Hammer and the Black Magic and the current models (777 then 888) is the aluminum alloy. The Hammer and Black Magic are made from an alloy that is 5 years removed from "state of the art".
Also, I believe those bats do not have a double wall "core" system.
There is a significant difference in performance

All I have to say is I made the assumption (perhaps wrong) that a player is playing HS ball and if he doesn't know all the top brands and models out there and which ones are the BOTTOM of the barrel... by now. Something is wrong.... (parents might not) but I'm sure "junior" will inform them...
But technically you are right which I admitted.

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So yes that one may not meet the top end BESR performance level.

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But My point is... (SOAP BOX PLEASE) You can buy last year's model for half of the cost of this years model and not lose a thing... unless you like throwing away your $$$$ And if you shop around with the internet you may find a Cosmetic Blem of this year's model for 30% of the price of one with a perfect paint job.

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from an alloy that is 5 years removed from "state of the art".

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The STATE of the ART... Doesn't change that fast.... guys.... This is metallurgy not computer chips. the industry has been around for thousands of years. With the ads from the bat manufacturers (10% stronger and lighter each year)we'd have new metal that would be over 50% stronger and much lighter. Why aren't cars being made with it???? maybe because it DENTS and cracks with a little stress????

Plus the NCAA determined that STATE of the ART exceeded the SAFETY limits years ago and imposed the BESR LIMITS. So now you don't NEED the top end state of the ART, because it will just have to be dampened down.

Here's an example.... I hope everyone can understand... Remember a couple years ago when TPX bats started appearing with their END caps CUPPED.... There's a great idea... But it doesn't make a HOLLOW bat lighter... Or more aerodynamic... or swing faster, or give it more pop. In fact it requires more material in the cap to create a cup and there by making it heavier, and at a point which requires the greatest amount of energy to move it. So it actaully degrades performance.

Louisville did it because the PROS Cup their WOOD bats... (which aren't hollow). And the kids like to imitate... Its purely marketing... NO techincal advantage what-so-ever... but the company sure did promote it... like it was.

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The STATE of the ART... Doesn't change that fast.... guys.... This is metallurgy not computer chips. the industry has been around for thousands of years

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True, but keep in mind that the difference in the alloys used today versus 5 years or 25 years ago is that the relative strength,while perhaps only slightly better, allows the company to make a thinner walled bat with better "rebound" (for lack of a better term).
With the BESR -3 bats, the top end is certainly defined, and I'm quite sure the top models from the last couple of years perform virtually the same.
The question is does a bat using theolder 7045 alloy perform at the same level. I'd assume some data is available if you dug hard enough.

Robert-
Hope you and your dad are doing well.The combo of talent desire and knowledge will take you a long way.

The ncaa testing can still be "circumvented" by a few things.

See the link below.

The test is done at a certain batspeed.You may swing the bat at a different speed and get better pop.

In general higher batspeed created by lower "swing weight" will increase batspeed (batspeed is most related to moment of inertia,the more of the weight toward the handle,the faster you can swing with good mechanics(this is like having good mechanics means you can throw the underweight ball faster when throwing).At a certain point,not having mass in the bathead will affect things.

There is alos the trampoline effect,especially "hoop mode" which may vary with bat/ball speed and show up in the field but not intesting.

If you were a pro,they would just let you try a thousand legal bats and you could pick the ones with more pop for your swing.

Trial and error is the way to go until more testing info is available to narrow your choices,but it can be time consuming and/or expensive.

see link

http://www.npl.uiuc.edu/~a-nathan/pob/MIAA.pdf

Notice in this link,"tuning the frequency of hoop mode vibration (probably easier for composite bats)may greatly enhance trampoline effect and ball speed after contact.

see link

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/batvibes.html

As indicated, the cheaper bats use the 7045/6 alloy. This is the same alloy that was used in the 70’s when the aluminum bat was introduced. It was not until the mid 1990’s that CU31 and then C405 bats were introduced. It was then that ball exit speed started to become an issue. The apparent reason was the trampoline affect from thinner walled bats, combined with the ability to make them in -5 designations.

The moment of inertia point is well taken. In the first year when they went from –5 to –3 the manufacturers put 2 ounces of lead into the knob end of the bat. The affect was to lower the moment of inertia of the bats, thus exasperating the problem. I have wondered if Barry has more than just tape at the end of his bat. It would be easy to add some lead tape, which could change the MOI quite a bit. Nick

Choking up will do it(lower swing weight)too.