Son has recently had some bicept pain after throwing. In the past this only happened after pitching, but he has had a little more discomfert this year after a normal workout.
Any thoughts?
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Could be normal early season soreness or Tendonitis. Jeff Weaver of the Angels fought it much of the early season last year. Ice and rest for Tendonitis. See a Dr to be sure.
NP13,
Your son like all that use the traditional centrifuged pitching motion (that leaks into the field throws) that causes the Brachialis underlying and along the same path as your bicep and is the actual injury within the muscle not being able to withstand the incorrect stress, not his bicep! The brachialis and biceps contracts eccentrically (lengthening) to keep his elbow from slamming together ballistically and since the triceps are the antagonist muscles that extends your elbow they do not fire off and remain inactive not allowing this powerful elbow extender to be used to throw. You must stop him from throwing (fastballs,curves,cutters and sliders etc.) supinated (thumb up) pitches!
The fix,
He must learn how to throw his forearm “inside of vertical” closer to his bodies axis center pronating his drive and finishes in straighter body lines matching the field driveline instead of off to the side centripetally. You will see an immediate improvement because the elbow flexors are now turned off and the elbow extender the triceps now turned on!
You must ask him to perform all pronated (thumb down) pitches!
Your son like all that use the traditional centrifuged pitching motion (that leaks into the field throws) that causes the Brachialis underlying and along the same path as your bicep and is the actual injury within the muscle not being able to withstand the incorrect stress, not his bicep! The brachialis and biceps contracts eccentrically (lengthening) to keep his elbow from slamming together ballistically and since the triceps are the antagonist muscles that extends your elbow they do not fire off and remain inactive not allowing this powerful elbow extender to be used to throw. You must stop him from throwing (fastballs,curves,cutters and sliders etc.) supinated (thumb up) pitches!
The fix,
He must learn how to throw his forearm “inside of vertical” closer to his bodies axis center pronating his drive and finishes in straighter body lines matching the field driveline instead of off to the side centripetally. You will see an immediate improvement because the elbow flexors are now turned off and the elbow extender the triceps now turned on!
You must ask him to perform all pronated (thumb down) pitches!
Thanks Yardbird. Any chance you have an illustration or youtube of both CPM and the proper way?
I really know very little about this, but I always assumed he threw "thimb dow" too much. His throws to second tail and when he pitches his fastball runs in on right-handed batters.
He is not really a pitcher, so we have never taken any video of him throwing. I will try this week during workouts.
I really know very little about this, but I always assumed he threw "thimb dow" too much. His throws to second tail and when he pitches his fastball runs in on right-handed batters.
He is not really a pitcher, so we have never taken any video of him throwing. I will try this week during workouts.
NP13, just a word of warning. All pitchers pronate when they throw, if your son’s ball is tailing on throws from the field then he is not properly positioned and/or on the side of the ball with his fingers. Yardbird is a Mike Marshall disciple, Google him and you will find all kinds of stuff and then come to your own conclusion on what you should do. I would also go to ASMI.org and look at their BB for more information. Changing his throwing motion will not likely change much other than completely screw him up. ASMI has a couple of books that are extremely cheap and worth the $25 (both books + shipping/handling) it will cost you. They are “Preventive & Rehabilitative Exercises for the Shoulder and Elbow” & “Conditioning Program for Baseball Pitchers”
Many kids have issues when they start throwing every day after a winter lay off so it could be normal or it could be Tendonitis. The only way to deal with the latter is to stop throwing and to use ice nightly. Like I posted earlier if in question go see a Dr. who is familiar with throwing issues. ASMI or the Kerlan-Jobe clinic in LA can probably help you find someone in your area. Good Luck!
Many kids have issues when they start throwing every day after a winter lay off so it could be normal or it could be Tendonitis. The only way to deal with the latter is to stop throwing and to use ice nightly. Like I posted earlier if in question go see a Dr. who is familiar with throwing issues. ASMI or the Kerlan-Jobe clinic in LA can probably help you find someone in your area. Good Luck!
Thank BOF. I will check those out.
quote:His throws to second tail
Always try to use a 4 seam grip on throws. Just cross the seams as your arm is coming up to throw.
Some Internet site, says...
Maybe a better site, says...
quote:The brachialis is the strongest flexor of the elbow. It lies deep to the biceps. Unlike the biceps, the brachialis does not insert on the radius, and therefore cannot participate in pronation/supination of the forearm.
Maybe a better site, says...
quote:Dynamic stability is provided by 4 muscle groups that transverse the elbow. The biceps brachii, brachioradialis, and brachialis muscles are the major flexors of the elbow joint. The triceps and anconeus muscles achieve extension. The supinator and biceps brachii muscles provide supination. Pronation is achieved through the pronator quadratus, pronator teres, and flexor carpi radialis muscles.
NP13,
99.9 % of all pitchers are taught centripetal mechanics, this means while it is much more difficult to pronate the fastball it can still be attained, this is probably what your son is doing by getting tail on his throws. Just look at any MLB pitcher from straight behind or straight from the front and you will see the ball go to far in initial rotation past the opposite direction of the throw that automatically sets up centripetal imperative causing you to create humerus and forearm flyout during ball drive.
Here is a great motor skill drill called the ½ reverse pivot that will cure him of this biceps problem and many others. This is the best throwing drill ever devised and I have witnessed it correcting many of my pitchers glitches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBf9JAQ32c
My best pitchers actually turn their thumbs down and then under with the palm up at finish with the elbow finishing up instead of into the belly down.
If he is not going to pitch later, do not let him pitch now because if he is using the traditional pitching motion it puts him deeper and deeper into the destructive throwing pattern that he will then take to the field. Teach him how to Crowstep correctly and he will automatically fix the problem because his transition timing will be earlier and safer.
BOF,
This is a classic misdiagnosis and very dangerous for people who wish for truthful information to proceed with. This bad information is caused when people try to diagnose
mechanics using grainy 30 frames a second video or even worse internet GIF’s then repeated enough times to catch on to those not willing or able to understand actual kinesiological movement from lack of knowledge.
There are 4 main pitches that are supinated (thumb up at drive and finish) voluntarily caused from centripetal mechanics the worst being the Slider then the Cutter then the curve then the fastball. All of these pitches can be thrown pronated but much more difficult from the side.
What people see as pronation after these traditional pitches is hard involuntary pronation snap back of the forearm after ballistic full range of motion supination drive and finish. There is only one place the forearm can actually go after it supinates and that is back the other way involuntarily always right after release.
Yardbird is a Marshall practitioner; throwing mechanics have nothing to do with religion!
Just go to his web site and find his e-mail and e-mail him directly for the answer to your problem and he will get back to you ASAP with answers from an actual retired College teaching professor in kinesiology, motor skill acquisition and exercise physiology all for free. At DrMikeMarshall.com
Warning, rest = Atrophy and the downward spiral to oblivion. Soft tissue strains heal 3 times as fast when stimulated lightly at first then vigorously when pain starts to subside later on.
A slight mechanical change is what is needed to stop the injurious aspect of his motion!
Sultanofswat,
Good info swat!!
quote:“Thanks Yardbird. Any chance you have an illustration or youtube of both CPM and the proper way?”
99.9 % of all pitchers are taught centripetal mechanics, this means while it is much more difficult to pronate the fastball it can still be attained, this is probably what your son is doing by getting tail on his throws. Just look at any MLB pitcher from straight behind or straight from the front and you will see the ball go to far in initial rotation past the opposite direction of the throw that automatically sets up centripetal imperative causing you to create humerus and forearm flyout during ball drive.
Here is a great motor skill drill called the ½ reverse pivot that will cure him of this biceps problem and many others. This is the best throwing drill ever devised and I have witnessed it correcting many of my pitchers glitches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBf9JAQ32c
quote:” I always assumed he threw "thimb dow" too much.”
My best pitchers actually turn their thumbs down and then under with the palm up at finish with the elbow finishing up instead of into the belly down.
quote:”He is not really a pitcher, so we have never taken any video of him throwing. I will try this week during workouts”
If he is not going to pitch later, do not let him pitch now because if he is using the traditional pitching motion it puts him deeper and deeper into the destructive throwing pattern that he will then take to the field. Teach him how to Crowstep correctly and he will automatically fix the problem because his transition timing will be earlier and safer.
BOF,
quote:“All pitchers pronate when they throw”
This is a classic misdiagnosis and very dangerous for people who wish for truthful information to proceed with. This bad information is caused when people try to diagnose
mechanics using grainy 30 frames a second video or even worse internet GIF’s then repeated enough times to catch on to those not willing or able to understand actual kinesiological movement from lack of knowledge.
There are 4 main pitches that are supinated (thumb up at drive and finish) voluntarily caused from centripetal mechanics the worst being the Slider then the Cutter then the curve then the fastball. All of these pitches can be thrown pronated but much more difficult from the side.
What people see as pronation after these traditional pitches is hard involuntary pronation snap back of the forearm after ballistic full range of motion supination drive and finish. There is only one place the forearm can actually go after it supinates and that is back the other way involuntarily always right after release.
quote:“Yardbird is a Mike Marshall disciple”
Yardbird is a Marshall practitioner; throwing mechanics have nothing to do with religion!
quote:“Google him and you will find all kinds of stuff “
Just go to his web site and find his e-mail and e-mail him directly for the answer to your problem and he will get back to you ASAP with answers from an actual retired College teaching professor in kinesiology, motor skill acquisition and exercise physiology all for free. At DrMikeMarshall.com
quote:“The only way to deal with the latter is to stop throwing and to use ice nightly”
Warning, rest = Atrophy and the downward spiral to oblivion. Soft tissue strains heal 3 times as fast when stimulated lightly at first then vigorously when pain starts to subside later on.
A slight mechanical change is what is needed to stop the injurious aspect of his motion!
Sultanofswat,
Good info swat!!
This is starting to sound like a hospital. Please tell the guy what the kid should do in simple terms.
Uh, oh. Yardbird's back. More head scratching for a while. 
Could be bicep tendinitis. Rest, Ice, Massage, Anti-inflammatories.
I'm not discounting anything anyone else has said but when these problems crop up with my son I'm learning to look back at his growth history as well. Son had a little bicep pain starting out this year- looked back and saw he had grown about 1.5" in 3 months or so. He finished one season with one body and started the next with a new one. With a little massage, a better dynamic warmup and a slight tweak to his mechanics the problem has gone away.
OMG....I just watched Yarbird's "you tube" video of the 1/2 reverse pivot drill and the first thing I thought was that the poor kid started to seize as he was trying to throw a ball!!!
(no offense was meant towards those who suffer seizures)
(no offense was meant towards those who suffer seizures)
No kidding redsox. Not only that, but where in the world is he throwing the ball??? Mound is pointing at the camera - ball goes at about a 45 degree angle to his throwing arm side!! I really don't know how Yard is not embarassed posting a link to this.
quote:Mound is pointing at the camera - ball goes at about a 45 degree angle to his throwing arm side!! I really don't know how Yard is not embarassed posting a link to this.
Why would he be embarassed, it's the same drill that Dr M and Joe Williams broke out on the MLB channel..only Joe was supposed to be demonstrating a pick-off move.
I just wonder how come they never seem to be throwing to a catcher.
Now that’s more like it!
Hey this board has been stagnant for weeks and you guys don’t perk up unless I enter the fray, then your zippers come down. Speaking of Zippers have you seen the casualty list in just this years MLB spring training? How about that first week, Woh! I would not give any guaranteed contracts to any pitcher if I were an owner, one year at a time thank you, go try to get your own insurance to cover it good luck.
wz8fvm,
When dealing with a medical mechanical plague this becomes prudent.
When throwing from the field allows a safer and more efficient throwing mechanic!
Bring this mechanic to the mound.
The Crowstep throwing motion can be performed on the mound.
The benefit is when you transition to throw the transition is at the back and earlier than off to the side later.
How’d I do?
Bballman,
I did not go anywhere I’ve been reading this stuff.
I always give you a pass though knowing your just a kid.
It’s the thumb chin resting that I want!
He was throwing it over the little house.
He was throwing it over the little house.
He was throwing it over the little house.
Is this a question?
How could I be anything but satisfied knowing that it will be tested and used by some and they will have now engaged their Triceps and latisimus dorsi into the primary mover instead of the peck moving them towards a safer driveline?
In the future when you go to personally bash me, please get the spelling right of your action words so there is more of a chance the irony of it wont be used back at chah.
mdbaseballdad,
This is the most important lesson a parent can learn, your son’s biological age and the ramifications of ballistic activity on ossification centers and growth rates of different types of tissues. Parents should at least get x-rays of their children pitchers every year on their chronological birthday. Both arms should be taken for comparison to see if the ball arm is biologically older than the glove arm. Other growth abnormalities can be discovered early like the soft epicondile deforming or fragmenting in under 13 BYO males.
Dr.Marshall has an x-ray study on going. It correlates growth and particular mechanical stress. He is asking concerned parents to join the study and he will advise and compile the information for free.
redsox8191,
Getting ahlittle stuffy in that closet isn’t it?
Unfortunately it looks like the first thing you thought was also the last?
No that would be some of the AA batters he faced.
I believe the little house that he was trying to throw the ball over wasn’t much of an Obstacle.
Jdfromfla,
In fact, that is Joe Williams doing a form of the half reverse pivot drill, this is probably a training film and training discovery testing footage. You are actually privileged to watch it.
This is how Marshall picked men off of second but Joe was demonstrating the half reverse drill not how he picks off at second because Marshall had little time and wanted to put this most important drill directly out there, I would have rather Marshall put his actual windup in the segment as to not cause confusion or done both.
Are you saying Harold Reynolds was not catching him? Didn’t you see Reynolds reaction to the pitch just with the drill where the bottom half is deleted being thrown at him, talk about a seizure. Come to think of it, it’s a good thing Joe did not bring the full Crowstep at him.
A better look would have been Joe on the mound pitching live to a batter and catcher agreed, but the production effort was what it was. That's on the MLB networks effort, at least they gave him 10 min.
Hey this board has been stagnant for weeks and you guys don’t perk up unless I enter the fray, then your zippers come down. Speaking of Zippers have you seen the casualty list in just this years MLB spring training? How about that first week, Woh! I would not give any guaranteed contracts to any pitcher if I were an owner, one year at a time thank you, go try to get your own insurance to cover it good luck.
wz8fvm,
quote:‘This is starting to sound like a hospital”
When dealing with a medical mechanical plague this becomes prudent.
quote:“Please tell the guy what the kid should do in simple terms”
When throwing from the field allows a safer and more efficient throwing mechanic!
Bring this mechanic to the mound.
The Crowstep throwing motion can be performed on the mound.
The benefit is when you transition to throw the transition is at the back and earlier than off to the side later.
How’d I do?
Bballman,
quote:Uh, oh. Yardbird's back.
I did not go anywhere I’ve been reading this stuff.
I always give you a pass though knowing your just a kid.
quote:“More head scratching for a while”
It’s the thumb chin resting that I want!
quote:but where in the world is he throwing the ball???
He was throwing it over the little house.
He was throwing it over the little house.
He was throwing it over the little house.
quote:“ Mound is pointing at the camera - ball goes at about a 45 degree angle to his throwing arm side!! “
Is this a question?
quote:“I really don't know how Yard is not embarassed posting a link to this”
How could I be anything but satisfied knowing that it will be tested and used by some and they will have now engaged their Triceps and latisimus dorsi into the primary mover instead of the peck moving them towards a safer driveline?
In the future when you go to personally bash me, please get the spelling right of your action words so there is more of a chance the irony of it wont be used back at chah.
mdbaseballdad,
quote:“I'm learning to look back at his growth history as well”
This is the most important lesson a parent can learn, your son’s biological age and the ramifications of ballistic activity on ossification centers and growth rates of different types of tissues. Parents should at least get x-rays of their children pitchers every year on their chronological birthday. Both arms should be taken for comparison to see if the ball arm is biologically older than the glove arm. Other growth abnormalities can be discovered early like the soft epicondile deforming or fragmenting in under 13 BYO males.
Dr.Marshall has an x-ray study on going. It correlates growth and particular mechanical stress. He is asking concerned parents to join the study and he will advise and compile the information for free.
redsox8191,
quote:“OMG”
Getting ahlittle stuffy in that closet isn’t it?
quote:“first thing I thought”
Unfortunately it looks like the first thing you thought was also the last?
quote:“the poor kid started to seize”
No that would be some of the AA batters he faced.
quote:‘as he was trying to throw a ball!!!”
I believe the little house that he was trying to throw the ball over wasn’t much of an Obstacle.
Jdfromfla,
quote:it's the same drill that Dr M and Joe Williams broke out on the MLB channel
In fact, that is Joe Williams doing a form of the half reverse pivot drill, this is probably a training film and training discovery testing footage. You are actually privileged to watch it.
quote:“only Joe was supposed to be demonstrating a pick-off move”
This is how Marshall picked men off of second but Joe was demonstrating the half reverse drill not how he picks off at second because Marshall had little time and wanted to put this most important drill directly out there, I would have rather Marshall put his actual windup in the segment as to not cause confusion or done both.
quote:“I just wonder how come they never seem to be throwing to a catcher”
Are you saying Harold Reynolds was not catching him? Didn’t you see Reynolds reaction to the pitch just with the drill where the bottom half is deleted being thrown at him, talk about a seizure. Come to think of it, it’s a good thing Joe did not bring the full Crowstep at him.
A better look would have been Joe on the mound pitching live to a batter and catcher agreed, but the production effort was what it was. That's on the MLB networks effort, at least they gave him 10 min.
