Biggest improvement comes from...?

I think it depends... early in the teen age years, I think instruction and reps is more important.

Later - say 16 or 17 - I think playing with the best against the best is more important for two reasons - it highlights areas for development and it creates an experience base that is needed in college ball (for confidence and mental toughness).

This is a good question justbaseball. I believe you need both. Good instruction and good baseball, but I also believe that without good, repetitive instruction a player will not keep up with the good competition.

My son, along with many other serious players in our area, spent 4-5 days a week during the winter working on all aspects of the game at a local baseball academy. Most of the regulars had a very nice, polished swing. When a new player came into the workout program usually his swing was noticeably not as fluid and polished. Within a month of daily instruction the new swing would become better.

These practiced swing usually lead to high school and travel team success. Other aspects of the game were also more refined compared to players who didn't work on their game in the off season.

To this day when my son gets into a hitting funk, he'll say to me. "I need to see so and so", and will schedule a few sessions with his favorite instructor. Usually after a tweak here and there he gets back on track. Playing a lot of games can lead to bad mechanics. If a kid gets into a slump and is doing something wrong in his swing it will only get worse as he presses and incorrectly self diagnoses his swing. Even major leaguers need hitting instruction during the season.

All players in all sports use repetitive practice for success. How many shots to basketball players take per week, how about golfers constantly hitting balls. All good swings and shots have to be grooved and effortless to work best in competition IMO.

What does everyone do? Instruction and play.

What can you do that everyone does not do? What can you do that will take you to another level?

Can you get faster? Can you get quicker? Can you get stronger? Can you get more athletic? Can you become more flexible? Can you become more mentally tough?

There is another part of this equation. And it is very important. Learning that becoming a better player and reaching your full potential may mean you need to learn that you need to leave the bats and gloves in the car to do it sometimes.

Kids want to hit. They want to throw. They want to play the game. They need to learn that becoming the best athlete they can be will help them hit it better, throw it better and play the game better.

I think there is a balance to it all. Instruction. Playing the game. Working at being the best athlete you can be so you can be the best you can be. Whats more important? That would be determined by the individual. Some need more instruction. Some need more game experience. Some need more work on getting bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, flexible, more athletic.

Sometimes becoming a better pitcher, hitter, fielder, has more to do with becoming a better athlete than it does with getting more instruction or games under the belt. Just thought I would throw that out there.

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Nice toss coach!






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quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
What does everyone do? Instruction and play.

What can you do that everyone does not do? What can you do that will take you to another level?

Can you get faster? Can you get quicker? Can you get stronger? Can you get more athletic? Can you become more flexible? Can you become more mentally tough?

There is another part of this equation. And it is very important. Learning that becoming a better player and reaching your full potential may mean you need to learn that you need to leave the bats and gloves in the car to do it sometimes.

Kids want to hit. They want to throw. They want to play the game. They need to learn that becoming the best athlete they can be will help them hit it better, throw it better and play the game better.

I think there is a balance to it all. Instruction. Playing the game. Working at being the best athlete you can be so you can be the best you can be. Whats more important? That would be determined by the individual. Some need more instruction. Some need more game experience. Some need more work on getting bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, flexible, more athletic.

Sometimes becoming a better pitcher, hitter, fielder, has more to do with becoming a better athlete than it does with getting more instruction or games under the belt. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Good points.

I know John Kruk said once that he is a baseball player and not an athlete. I guess that may be true in Kruk's case but these days I think teams are just as interested in good athletes as they are in fundamental baseball players.

Everything has to be a process. A kid has to become faster and stronger to progress. At the same time I do honestly believe that fundamentals have to be constantly worked with. Bad habits creep back in quickly without supervision. I don't honestly think one thing or another gives the greatest improvement, it is a process where all things being done help create a better ballplayer.

This topic, to me, reflects the type of thread which used to generate so much interest and comment on the HSBBW.
Topics like this one and the comments/discussions about it would breath life and vitality into the site for a vast majority of the members.
Wonder what happened/is happening?

I'd go with the instructions. Bad habits are hard to break, if a player has good fundamental skills he will eventually catch up to the competition and maybe even pass them by if his skills are that good.

I think working on the mental part of the game is not focused on enough. At the higher levels most of the physical tools are in place and it is the mental approach that can be over looked. Work on your mental part of of your game and you will see significant improvements.

quote:

In your estimation (maybe based on your own son's experience), which do you think is more important? Great skills instruction or a great travel team playing against the best?

Every part of the process is important. But if the kid doesn't develop the skills he won't be in the lineup to play against the best. You build a house starting with a founndation. The same is true with sports. Skills are the foundation of the process. Without skills there's nothing to showcase. If we want to get micro rather than macro the fundamentals are the foundation and those start with footwork. Like anything, the top will crumble if the foundation isn't secure.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
In your estimation (maybe based on your own son's experience), which do you think is more important? Great skills instruction or a great travel team playing against the best? Sometimes on here I think we make each other feel like we gotta do it all...instruction, camps, elite travel ball, etc... What if you could only afford one?

Thoughts?

I think the most important thing for young boys is a break from baseball, at some point in the year.

For the really deep questions, I often refer to the great mentor, Al Bundy. His theme song "Love and Marriage", clearly states...

"You can't have one without the other"

Now, I suppose it is possible for a natural athlete to "learn by doing" as he plays more and more competitive games without instruction. In fact, I think that was somewhat the norm 30-40 years ago. I don't think even the best instruction can fully simulate the environment and situational aspect of high level competitive games. That being said, I think the average athlete would never be able to perform in high level games without the foundation that RJM refers to.

Infield - I agree with your observation and wonder the same. Might make a good new topic.

The biggest improvement comes from . . .



. . . the fire that burns within to be the best.


I'd be a rich man if I knew how to start and tend that fire.

Good topic.

I get frustrated when many of the summer teams nowadays just play games and do not practice. I can't figure out why you need to play so much yet can't seem to find time to have a practice.

Coach May - as always your posts is spot on.

I have a theory.

Some atheletes are born with an ability to self-evaluate and adjust. They listen to instruction but most importantly have an ability to evaluate what they are doing and adjust. They apply what they learn and build on it.

I'm not minimizing instruction - it is important. But playing the game with an interest in improving, and the ability to "self coach" can differentiate players.

With this theory, you take a player who is not good at "self coaching" and have him play 100 games, he won't be appreciably better in game 99 than he was in game 1. He knows what he is supposed to do but doesn't know how to implement it.

Take another player who is a student of the game - of his game - the teenage athelete who learns about his swing, his throwing mechanics, then self-evalutes and corrects, will be noticably better in game 99. Maybe he asks his mom or dad "did I dip my shoulder". Maybe he asks someone to film him during an at bat. Maybe he can work off the tee and figure out what adjustments to make. Maybe it is just trial and error.

So you need the coaching, the instruction and the game exposure, but you most of all need the innate ability to pull it all together yourself.

Improvements come from three areas:

1. Skill development
2. Strength and conditioning. (bigger, stronger, faster)
3. Playing competitive games once you have the skills and strength.

If I had to do it over again, I would focus on 1 & 2 more at a younger age, and then start playing very competitive games later. This is one reason I am against this entire “travel ball this, travel ball that” at 10-14YO age range. IMO it is a complete waist of time and money; it takes kids away from their neighborhoods, stresses families, and takes them away from playing multiple sports. Most travel teams don’t coach the kids anyway and many don’t even know how to coach. (at least the younger teams) Many HS coaches don’t have a clue about how to develop kids also. Get good instruction and good training first, and then get to high-level ball.

A 14YO should get great instruction, get in the weight room with a good athletic trainer, and once he hits puberty start to play the highest level of ball he can find. If you are fortunate to have a good HS program, great - but plan on it not being very good.

The fire within....well as Domingo says "that is God given"

i've heard dads say "my son played 76 games this year". more often than not........they would be better off with 76 practices. but what do i know?

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
A 14YO should ... start to play the highest level of ball he can find.

By 'the highest level', do you mean against other elite 14 year-olds, to see where he stacks up vs kids in the same recruiting class, or 18U, to see where he stacks up in the big picture- against the players who will be upeerclassmen when he is a college freshman?

BOF, best post ever.

Nice save of this thread infielddad.

Nice responses since then

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Improvements come from three areas:

1. Skill development
2. Strength and conditioning. (bigger, stronger, faster)
3. Playing competitive games once you have the skills and strength.

If I had to do it over again, I would focus on 1 & 2 more at a younger age, and then start playing very competitive games later. This is one reason I am against this entire “travel ball this, travel ball that” at 10-14YO age range. IMO it is a complete waist of time and money; it takes kids away from their neighborhoods, stresses families, and takes them away from playing multiple sports. Most travel teams don’t coach the kids anyway and many don’t even know how to coach. (at least the younger teams) Many HS coaches don’t have a clue about how to develop kids also. Get good instruction and good training first, and then get to high-level ball.

A 14YO should get great instruction, get in the weight room with a good athletic trainer, and once he hits puberty start to play the highest level of ball he can find. If you are fortunate to have a good HS program, great - but plan on it not being very good.

The fire within....well as Domingo says "that is God given"

Yep, couldn't agree more. I was faced with this dilemma of moving my son to a higher level travel team or sticking with quality coaches (lower team) and getting him lessons. I chose the quality coaches and lessons.

I can relate to the posts from BOF and Coach May...excellent points made from both of them! Looking back in the rearview mirror, being the stud at age 10-14 doesn't mean squat. I hope that all of the parents that currently have kids in this age group realize this? You really don't know what your son/daughter will be doing 4-7 years from now? I was fortunate that my son played multiple sports (baseball/basketball) up until his sophomore year of HS. I enjoyed watching him play both sports and he competed at a very high level on the travel ball circuit. But the drawback was that it was virtually impossible for him to play football too. If I had to do it over again as a parent of a 10-14 year old, it would have been more about fun at that age...and Pop Warner Football would have most likely been part of our lives as well.

Now, back to the OP on this thread from Just Baseball...IMO,read Coach May's response. It's a combination of good instruction, physical training (strength), mental training (books/tapes), and good competition. IMHO, most athletes need all of the aspects mentioned to perform at a higher level. My son has been working with a trainer since he was fourteen years old. There's no doubt in my mind that his physical training has helped his speed/strength and conditioning over the years on and off the baseball field. The competition level on the baseball field has been just as important over the years. He has always played on excellent travel teams and competed versus other very strong programs. Yes, he was always one of the better players...but he was never the stud, and always had to work hard to remain a fixture on each team he's played on.

In a nutshell, I hope my son continues to improve. When he goes off to college in a couple months, the hard work that I've helped instill in him hopefully continues to burn in his belly in the classroom, gym, and on the baseball field! For those of us parents that are in this situation, all that we can do is sit back and support them the best way we can...it's now up to them to take the next step.

quote:

Now, back to the OP on this thread from Just Baseball...IMO,read Coach May's response.

I completely agree with that...great response from Coach May...as usual!

My son's 14 and he has played baseball for the past 8 years. Prior to this year, he played on a local "AA" team for 4 years that played about 30 games a year - a mixture of a league and 6 or so local tournaments. I helped coach and we focused on fundamentals and on building a love and respect for the game. It was a higher level than rec baseball but not over the top competitive. He enjoyed the additional games, and it worked out well for our budget. Most importantly, it always left him wanting more at the end of the season.

Last year he came to me and told me that he wanted to try-out for some of the stronger, higher level travel teams. And while many of these teams do play games at the expense of practices, the one he joined was exactly the opposite. They had 62 practices this year and played 45 games. From my perspective, it was the perfect mix. He got tons of repetition in the field and at bat in practices and then got to try his skills out against stronger competition in the games. And to Coach May's point, every one of the early practices included some strength and agility training. My kid wasn't a big fan of those workouts, but I'm pretty certain they added to his success.

And while he has benefited tremendously these past two years from working one-on-one with a hitting instructor, he has benefitted just as much working with a pitching instructor as part of a small group. Obviously there is no "one-size-fits-all" for success. But, I certainly think a combination of practice and play works the best.

BOF.......BINGO

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
What does everyone do? Instruction and play.

What can you do that everyone does not do? What can you do that will take you to another level?

Can you get faster? Can you get quicker? Can you get stronger? Can you get more athletic? Can you become more flexible? Can you become more mentally tough?

There is another part of this equation. And it is very important. Learning that becoming a better player and reaching your full potential may mean you need to learn that you need to leave the bats and gloves in the car to do it sometimes.

Kids want to hit. They want to throw. They want to play the game. They need to learn that becoming the best athlete they can be will help them hit it better, throw it better and play the game better.

I think there is a balance to it all. Instruction. Playing the game. Working at being the best athlete you can be so you can be the best you can be. Whats more important? That would be determined by the individual. Some need more instruction. Some need more game experience. Some need more work on getting bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, flexible, more athletic.

Sometimes becoming a better pitcher, hitter, fielder, has more to do with becoming a better athlete than it does with getting more instruction or games under the belt. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Interesting.. we just finished up (team didnt make it out of pool play at 2-3)and on the drive back to the hotel my son and I were talking about the level of competition he faced the last several days. I asked what did he learn.. what did he see?

He said I need to get bigger/stronger/faster and I added more flexible.

You don't realize how good you really have to be to stand out until you come to East Cobb.

My sons experience.....good instruction was the most important. We did things both ways....little league...then when that ended to competitive ball....but no instruction other than what I or the team coaches could provide. Son was an excellent player but there appeared to be problems with some mechanics....started HS ball and began at the JV level as a freshman but was slated to move to Varsity until injury stopped him in his tracks (inside pitch and a broken bone in his left hand). Summer ball happened with decent results but still working on getting better. Following his Sophomore season where he was the starting V shortstop....and another injury shortened season (PCL sprain) we decided that getting insrtuction would be the next best move...and that it was. Hit .516 as a Jr.....and led his team in almost every category....great year. His drive and passion for the game grew by leaps and bounds because of the sucess he began to have. That drive and passion continue today as he gets ready for his first fully healthy season of college baseball (med redshirt last year). He had many successes in games played....but the real happiness began when he was "helped." He learned how to realize his potential as a ball player and was them able to put into play...what he learned from the instructor.

J23

Based on our experiences, I'd say good instruction had the biggest impact on our sons' development and game performance. Baseball is a game of adjustments, both mechanical and mental, and nothing beats individual time with a good coach to make the adjustments needed to compete against stronger competition.

During one spring training, our oldest was pulled aside by Barry Bonds for 30 min. of hitting instruction while Willie Mays hung on the back of the batting cage, providing additional input. He went on the have the best season of his pro career. Priceless!