Bombing the SAT

ACT is a very viable alternative. The Guidance Councilor at our school said kids from our school typically score 5-10% better on the ACT - with some kids doing as much as 25% better.

SAT is more abstract than the ACT is how my daughter who took both described it. She did substantially better on the ACT.

Easy enough to find out - the ACT prep books have full tests in them - have your son take a practice test under the same conditions. If he does better, there is an ACT test being given this weekend - he'd have to go standby.

For what it is worth, I am not aware of a school that only takes the SAT - everywhere I know of takes both.

My son also did much better on the ACT. He can do a practice test on the ACT site and he may find it more to his liking.

RJM,
Keep in mind test scores do not carry the weight they used too anymore. Best of luck!

RJ my daughter was recruited by several Ivies. She found the ACT a much better experience and scored a 30 twice. She is valedictorian of her class. The ACT is not abstract reasoning like the SAT (which you cannot prep for IMO) but a knowledge based exam. The test score will matter greatly if you want to go Ivy. It may matter even more at a top D3 academic school without a slot. He needs to take the ACT as soon as possible... as the other poster said go standby. Send me a PM if I can be of further assistance.

How did he do on the PSAT?

Try the ACT - son a strong math/science student - bombed the SAT and did much better on the ACT. I think if you have a kid who is a"reader" the SAT is the better test - we do not so the ACT was a better choice. Hope that helps.

Hi!
GT kids usually do very well on tests. Is he motivated to take the SAT? Some bright kids intentionally underperform for a variety of reasons...fear of college, etc. Does he want to go to an Ivy League school?

If his motivation to do well is strong and he's as bright as you say, then I would check into taking the ACT or speak with his counselor.

as I think about this more he may have test anxiety. if you go the ACT route tell him how much easier it is.. how much better kids do on it... talk to him like he is going to blow it out of the water...

he obviously has the ability... remove the negative

My son was recruited (multiple phone calls) by Columbia and Navy with mid 1100's Math & English. It is probably doable, I guess.

My son sounds alot like yours; gifted program, high IQ. He got 700+ in math but continued to stay in the higher 500s in verbal. Got a 30 act score on the first try...

ACT (with the writing component) scores are accepted by every school as an equal alternative to SAT1 scores. IVY’s also require 2 (sometimes 3) SAT II tests.

My S said the SAT II’s were more like the ACT’s in that those tests measured knowledge acquired through courses taught (concrete things). He only took the ACT plus SAT II’s; though he did begin SAT 1 preparation (including several practice tests). He thought the ACT was easier than the practice SAT 1 tests because the ACT was more concrete; he thought the SAT1’s were more abstract.

So, while the ACT is not per se easier, students may do better on it (or vice versa) than the SAT 1. In other words, good scores on one (or lower scores) are not necessarily indicative of good (or lower scores) on the other. (You can prepare for the ACT’s by getting one of the ACT prep books – understanding the format and time constraints [the ACT is lots of problems in a short amount of time] will really help [the ACT does not subtract points for a wrong answer; the SAT 1 does]. The more he practices, the more comfortable the testing environment will be – sort of like baseball!)

He should continue to promote himself to his academic schools. He should tell them he is taking the ACT (and take it as early as possible in the fall – the schools may not use one of their precious official visits until the coach knows he can get through admissions). He should also broaden his school selection just in case the scores do not increase.

If you have not done so, take a look at the IVY “athletic index” (AI) to get a feel for the IVY standards for athletes. (There has been much discussion on whether and how much the academic standards can be “lowered” [it’s all relative of course] for athletes in IVY league schools. You can decide for yourself on this point.]

Also, be aware of a potential trap with academic D-3’s and going the regular admission route. In many of these D-3’s (MIT comes to mind), an athlete applies RD and literally doesn’t know until the admission decision day whether he is in – and that is too late to develop a thoughtful back-up plan [though I know of many baseball players who were recruited by top tier academic institutions after they graduated from hs].

not to get off on the Ivy issue as there are great threads elsewhere.. but.. you will know they are serious when they run transcript and scores by the admission office for a pre approval. Until then it is relatively meaningless. This is how you judge their seriousness since there are no athletic scholarships but do not worry as their endowments make grant $ a better deal than most D1 scholly opportunities.

I have only personally known one Ivy League guy my entire life.... One time this topic came up and he said to me; "so what is the math question on the ACT? 'How many teats on a cow?" I got a good laugh out of it... then I keyed his Lexus (not really)...

good luck. Sorry I'm not more help

Bothsportsdads is right on with the money that is available at the schools with the large endowments.If you go on collegeboard.com and look at the % of needs met you will find alot of the schools will meet 99 to 100% of the needs met, that is where the money is.My oldest who is very bright but lazy in hs learned the hard way, my youngest who will be entering college this fall worked his butt off for 4 years in hs was rewarded with more then a few offers that amounted to him only costing us the same as we spend on my oldest books and this is without loans.

My guy has taken both. When we asked him to compare them he thought the SAT was geared for the kids that could get the good grades without breaking a sweet. The kids that can figure things out and almost learn on their own. The ACT he thought was better suited to those that had to work for their grades. Where things didn't come as easy but once learned stayed with you.

If you look around the Higher Ed world you will see a regional pattern to the SAT and ACT. The SAT is very heavy in the Northeast and the test that most of us grew up with (and dreading). Almost all schools will take either and there is now an agreed congruence on the scores.

Well put philsfan. My son just got his scores 1260 combined Math and Verbal, virtually no SAT Prep work. He is in that group you mention, gets grades, no work (unfortunately). He has 3.7 (does no work, even when riden by Mom and Dad like a show pony). He will take it again to get the best score scenario.
He takes a tough course load w APs and Honors class. I hope his study habits do not burn him in 17 months.

RJM, 2 suggestions.

First of all, coming close to 1100 on the traditional 2 components is not "bombing" the SAT's. OK, it might not make the Ivies happy, but lots of very high level schools' baseball programs can get your son in with scores and grades like those. UVA, W&M, Vanderbilt, Wake, Duke all come to mind. I'm glad you have high standards in your family, but let's not overreact. A lot of kids you know would be ecstatic with those scores.

Secondly, not to be a commercial, but since I have no stake in the business I'll pass this along. My daughter didn't "bomb" the SAT's but like you we were less than enthused with her scores. Princeton Review's ads claimed they would increase her 3-part scores by 200 points. "Baloney," I thought. "It won't be 200 points, but hopefully it'll help enough to be worth it."

I kid you not, after their course she retook the test and her scores went up exactly 200 points!

So, you might want to look into Princeton Review, Kaplan, Huntington, or a similar program.

RJM - PM me if you feel compelled. Scores matter- The Ivy index is important, and there is no need to dwell on it here. The top LAC's (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore) are not calculating Ivy index but can be even more demanding - or less if they really want a kid. SAT 2's can help your son demonstrate high proficiency in an environment where HE CHOSES the subject and each test is only an hour. Most importantly, AP exam scores of 4 or 5 prove you can do college work. How did your son do on those tests? The ACT can be a substitute but I think it is rarely a complete game changer. Admissions will convert the ACT score to SAT using a chart you can find on the internet (eg. ACT 32= 1410 SAT). As has been stated before, your son's GPA will be unweighted and reduced to its core, while the strength of his schedule will be "scored" separately, and equally. You can also find data on the odds of doing more than 100pts better on the ACT than the SAT. As I recall, the odds are long but it is possible. Bottom line: I think you can largely overcome the SAT score with a strong list of AP's given succesfully AP exams(4s and 5s only), super strong SAT 2 scores in Math and English plus a strong showing on the ACT. This was my own son's strategy and it worked well.

Definitely worth giving the ACT a shot. Mine scored considerably better, percentile wise, on the ACT than he did on the PSAT.
Also, ditto on the taking at least two SAT subject are tests if you use the ACT. Each Ivy school's admissions website (and some of their athletic deparment sites) lays out clearly what their testing requirements are. Good luck. Mine is dealing with the Ivy thing right now. Gut wrenching, at best.

Given the summer to prep would it be reasonable or confusing to prep for both tests at the same time to be taken in early fall? The key is getting a kid to focus on studying in the summer. I'll just ask him how badly he wants it.

The honest answer from me is that we felt that with showcasing, work, travelball, college visits etc, the best play was to focus on SAT 2 prep over the summer and use that exam to "correct" any "misconceptions" created by a particular SAT score. That worked great, though rightyshortstop"s situation was a bit different than your son's in that only one piece of the SAT score was, what he considered, artificially low (I thought his score was fine). He corrected that with a very high SAT 2 in the problem subject, thus killing two birds. I give him credit for taking a risky approach with full commitment. PM me if you want more. But really, even if it doesn't work out, your son is still qualified to go to a great school and play baseball, so don't grind too much. Your son will be who he is regardless of what a test score says.

quote:

I'll just ask him how badly he wants it.

I am curious as to why would you ask that question at this point? I really am curious. Please appreciate I am asking this from afar and without a lot of information.
In our house, and with many of our son's friends who were seeking admission to Ivy and top academic schools,how badly it was wanted seemed pretty apparent. It was apparent by what they said, what they talked about, by the effort in school, the results in grades, the way they competed on the field, the efforts they put in for strength and conditioning, etc.
Also it seems to me, from a very long distance away, that asking the question only increases the pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Given the summer to prep would it be reasonable or confusing to prep for both tests at the same time to be taken in early fall? The key is getting a kid to focus on studying in the summer. I'll just ask him how badly he wants it.

RJ.. if he has bombed the SAT twice forget about it. You cannot prep for it anyway.. it is a critical reasoning test. Take the ACT asap and begin prepping for its next offering... your local bookstore will have many study aids. Time is running out.

I don't think your son bombed the SAT. It just means he might have to reassess where he thought he was academically for the future.

Think of it this way....is it different than a baseball player who thought he had all the tools, was definitely getting drafted out of high school, and finally, when he faced the ultimate competition, realized he needed to play in a different league to succeed? I think the SATs are like that: they're the x factor. You can dream IVY and set yourself with a great GPA, class schedule, but the SATs can kind of put a different reality on the situation. Doesn't mean your kid's not a great kid - just means he has to "play in a different league."

If his IQ is above 140 and his SAT is under 1100, there is probably some problem. Only 1/2 of 1% of the population is at 140 or above IQ, but 1100 is about 60th percentile on the SAT. That is a large disparity.

The problem is, the SAT is a reasoning test much like the Stanford-Binet IQ test. So that large a disparity doesn't really make sense.

The ACT is more of an academic achievement test. It isn't all that unusual to find disparity between an IQ test score and and achievement test score of two or more standard deviations - in fact, that is one of the indicators for a learning disability/special ed diagnosis.

But since the SAT is more like the IQ test, that much of a disparity isn't right. Are you sure about the IQ test score?

quote:

Are you sure about the IQ test score?

The IQ was a requirement to be in the gifted program at school.

quote:

The problem is, the SAT is a reasoning test much like the Stanford-Binet IQ test. So that large a disparity doesn't really make sense.

Might be time to look into other options. Have your son speak with his HS coach about other local choices in schools, that might be availble.

quote:

Originally posted by GapFinder:

quote:

The problem is, the SAT is a reasoning test much like the Stanford-Binet IQ test. So that large a disparity doesn't really make sense.

Might be time to look into other options. Have your son speak with his HS coach about other local choices in schools, that might be availble.

We don't speak to the high school coach. He's made it clear he doesn't talk with parents along with his MO to intimidate his players into not approaching him. We work through the summer coach.

There are a couple of options. Focus on D1's where 1100 will be accepted. Education ranks high over baseball. I won't pay for any college just so he can play four more years of baseball. There are no delusions of pro ball whether it's possible or not. The focus will be on raising the score this summer. I asked my son what he wants and is he committed to getting it. It's sacrifice to have to take courses in the summer and study. He committed to it. He may lose some opportunities. But if he has a 1250 or 1300 in the fall there will be good opportunities.

Thanks to those who have provided advice. And yes, "bombing" is a relative term. 1100 is bombing in our house. It's bombing compared to the high 1300's his sister scored, who is not as naturally gifted. The kid has had to follow in the footsteps of a sister not as academically and athletically gifted who has done everything right. Now all he has to do to match her is graduate from college with high honors and a job.

quote:

It's bombing compared to the high 1300's his sister scored, who is not as naturally gifted. The kid has had to follow in the footsteps of a sister not as academically and athletically gifted who has done everything right. Now all he has to do to match her is graduate from college with high honors and a job.

No need to answer, to me at least:
Why does your son need to do all of that?
Why does he not get to establish his individual identify, have his individual accomplishments, and be appreciated for who he is?
I can say from experience our son would stand up and read me the riot act if I set his expectations in a similar way or told him what you have posted. Just my thinking but I think my son would be right. I know our daughter would think he would be right, too.

I don't expect him to get the scores his sister scored. I expect him to get the scores necessary for the schools interested in him. After acceptance scores are irrelevant. All younger kids live in the shadow of the older kid until they break out and have the opportunity to establish themselves. In the meantime he has an attitude anything she can do he can do better. All I'm looking for in SAT scores adequate for the possible opportunities available.

I'm a little ticked he didn't listen to me and have the sense of urgency regarding SAT's I told him he needed to have a year ago. Now he's under the pressure of succeeding in October or losing a lot of academic-baseball opportunities. This is a stubborn kid who sometimes has to do it his way and land on his head. Amazingly he always bounces and lands on his feet. A baseball dad/friend calls him Morris**. My son has no idea why.

** Morris the 9 Lives cat

RJM

We push our kids relentlessly to help them attain the athletic goals they've set for themselves. Why should we do anything less when it has to do with helping them reach the academic goals they've set?
Personally, I don't thing you need to explain anything.
Just saying.....

quote:

We push our kids relentlessly to help them attain the athletic goals they've set for themselves.

That was my point.
Is that a good thing to push them "relentlessly?" Why do that?
Is that a good thing for the athlete?
I believe, especially from HS and beyond that it is the job of coaches and those doing strength and conditioning to do whatever pushing was needed, if indeed any was/is.

Getting back to the original question, have your son take the ACT. No school except BYU (so I hear) requires one test over the other; use the better test.

Prep work is important though, especially if your son is ahead of his class in math like mine was. He really benefitted from reviewing algebra/trig/geometry before taking the ACT.

Most importantly, don't worry (and tell your son not to worry) about everything hinging on the test score. My daughter had an OK GPA, so-so SAT, and a fairly good ACT score. But because she had taken 50 credits of college courses and done well, she got accepted to top universities that her friends with better GPAs and higher test scores did not. In fact, one friend with a 2000+ SAT and 4.0 GPA was told by an Ivy that "he had not challenged himself", and that he would have to attend a prep school for a year to demonstrate he could operate at a collegiate level. Most universities these days want students who have demonstrated they can handle college-level curriculum. This means AP or actual college classes.

Best of luck.