no seamer
Credibility is in the eye of the beholder
As for Robert Blake he is welcome if he brings his c o c k a t o o and tapes of all his shows to add to my collection.
I truly find it amazing that when individuals get acquitted of crimes, people like you continue to beat the drums regarding their being guilty--how do you come to that conclusion? from what you read and hear ?-- it truly doesnt say much for you as a free thinking individual-- and I truly like it when you say you have enough evidence---DUH !!!!! You have more than the jury ?
DEAR OLD DAD
Yes Ruth is a great figure in baseball and a great baseball talent, perhaps the greatest of all time--in todays world he would not have a chance to play on the field because of his off the field performances--in my eyes he is not a great person to look up to--I do not look up to Bonds either but I admire the on field achievements of both these players
We are talking different eras and different popular beliefs---we have players in the HOF from eras past who in todays world would be in prison.
Yes Ruth is a great figure in baseball and a great baseball talent, perhaps the greatest of all time--in todays world he would not have a chance to play on the field because of his off the field performances--in my eyes he is not a great person to look up to--I do not look up to Bonds either but I admire the on field achievements of both these players
We are talking different eras and different popular beliefs---we have players in the HOF from eras past who in todays world would be in prison.
TR,
Without us getting into a huge wars of words & posturing I would like to know your stand on the BALCO records.
Do you believe that the records show all the data on Bonds ?
Without us getting into a huge wars of words & posturing I would like to know your stand on the BALCO records.
Do you believe that the records show all the data on Bonds ?
NH
Have you or I seen the FULL AND COMPLETE records?
I dont think so !!
So how can I comment on them--If I do I bring myself to the level of others who believe what they read and hear without seeing for themselves
Have you or I seen the FULL AND COMPLETE records?
I dont think so !!
So how can I comment on them--If I do I bring myself to the level of others who believe what they read and hear without seeing for themselves
My second & final post on this thread.
The Babe still, many years later, has the respect of nearly all the game's fans. He was widely acknowledged at the time as one of the greatest players to ever step on the field. He is still viewed the same. He used no illegal means in accomplishing incredible records. He gave back to the game and was considered a great public figure, as well as an ambassador for baseball.
Contrast that with Bonds. He doesn't even have the respect of his teammates, as has been obvious to anyone who isn't blind and deaf. He has failed to earn the respect of a signficant percentage of the fans. In fact, it is just the opposite. A great many fans have no respect for him. He has consistently exhibited grossly self-centered behavior. He is not considered an ambassador for baseball.
I cannot imagine anyone in a rational mind state who would argue with what I have written to this point.
Now for my opinion, but one that is shared by many - The Sultan of Swat is still the homerun king.
The Babe still, many years later, has the respect of nearly all the game's fans. He was widely acknowledged at the time as one of the greatest players to ever step on the field. He is still viewed the same. He used no illegal means in accomplishing incredible records. He gave back to the game and was considered a great public figure, as well as an ambassador for baseball.
Contrast that with Bonds. He doesn't even have the respect of his teammates, as has been obvious to anyone who isn't blind and deaf. He has failed to earn the respect of a signficant percentage of the fans. In fact, it is just the opposite. A great many fans have no respect for him. He has consistently exhibited grossly self-centered behavior. He is not considered an ambassador for baseball.
I cannot imagine anyone in a rational mind state who would argue with what I have written to this point.
Now for my opinion, but one that is shared by many - The Sultan of Swat is still the homerun king.
TR,
I base my opinions on this on the body of evidence. People, records, and his own physical changes. The testimony certainly was illegally leaked. But that doesnt mean what was leaked was false.
The fact he never failed a drug test is extremely weak arguement in this case. He knew he could not get caught because of the BALCO drugs & their testing of him to verify the success of their masking agents.
Imagine if you could take a substance that masked alcohol as far as breathalyzers and blood tests were concerned.
By the standard your using for Bonds, you would never convict anyone of drunk driving because you would "never" know if they were impaired.
I base my opinions on this on the body of evidence. People, records, and his own physical changes. The testimony certainly was illegally leaked. But that doesnt mean what was leaked was false.
The fact he never failed a drug test is extremely weak arguement in this case. He knew he could not get caught because of the BALCO drugs & their testing of him to verify the success of their masking agents.
Imagine if you could take a substance that masked alcohol as far as breathalyzers and blood tests were concerned.
By the standard your using for Bonds, you would never convict anyone of drunk driving because you would "never" know if they were impaired.
by the logic of certain bonds defenders, unless you see a needle hanging out of his keyster, there is no proof. Further, by that logic, apparently no jury can sit because they weren't there to witness the crime.
Jury's decide based on the information they are provided to "see and hear". The rules of evidence are exceedingly complex.
Bonds has admitted to taking steroids, just not knowingly. That's not enough for the defenders.
It has been documented (but gee what should documents count for say the defenders) that bonds hat/helmet size has increased 3 times. ONly the intake of human growth hormone will do that to the adult human skull, with the exception of a disease which bonds clearly doesn't have. Scientific fact and logic dictate therefore that he has taken human growth hormone. It's called inductive logic and scientific emperical fact and admissible evidence. But, not for the bonds defenders.
Until "proven" guilty the bonds defenders play right into his hands and play monkey see no evil, hear no evil.....
Lot's of innocent people are "proven" guilty. Lots of guilty people get acquited.
I have met barry bonds, i've seen him over the years, i've witnessed enough, read enough and SEEN enough to be believe there is NO other possible conclusion but that he has taken controlled substances/steroids/growth hormone, which without a prescription is a violation of the law and regardless of mlb's rules, which i think are still secondary to the law.
But, he hasn't been proven guilty
BTW, tell me what court found that pete rose bet on baseball. what court ruled that joe jackson threw the world series.......
I would also add that California Evidence Code Section 140 defines evidence to mean testimony, writings, material objects or other things presented to the senses that are offered to prove the existence or nonexistence of a fact.
There is plenty here that has been presented that meets this definition. If you can't form an opinion without someone else reaching a guilty verdict for you, that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Jury's decide based on the information they are provided to "see and hear". The rules of evidence are exceedingly complex.
Bonds has admitted to taking steroids, just not knowingly. That's not enough for the defenders.
It has been documented (but gee what should documents count for say the defenders) that bonds hat/helmet size has increased 3 times. ONly the intake of human growth hormone will do that to the adult human skull, with the exception of a disease which bonds clearly doesn't have. Scientific fact and logic dictate therefore that he has taken human growth hormone. It's called inductive logic and scientific emperical fact and admissible evidence. But, not for the bonds defenders.
Until "proven" guilty the bonds defenders play right into his hands and play monkey see no evil, hear no evil.....
Lot's of innocent people are "proven" guilty. Lots of guilty people get acquited.
I have met barry bonds, i've seen him over the years, i've witnessed enough, read enough and SEEN enough to be believe there is NO other possible conclusion but that he has taken controlled substances/steroids/growth hormone, which without a prescription is a violation of the law and regardless of mlb's rules, which i think are still secondary to the law.
But, he hasn't been proven guilty
BTW, tell me what court found that pete rose bet on baseball. what court ruled that joe jackson threw the world series.......
I would also add that California Evidence Code Section 140 defines evidence to mean testimony, writings, material objects or other things presented to the senses that are offered to prove the existence or nonexistence of a fact.
There is plenty here that has been presented that meets this definition. If you can't form an opinion without someone else reaching a guilty verdict for you, that's a whole 'nother discussion.
What a childish and demeaning way to respond. 2seamer is among the most respectful & respectable participants on these boards. To address 2seamer like this is completely out of line & disrespectful.quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
no seamer
The Saltan of Swat is not the Home Run King that Record belongs to #44 Hammering Hank!
Bonds play on the field over his entire career has been spectacular and then amazing. How it came to be will be looked upon individually. Some will condem, others will acknowledge an edge and accept, some will never cloud the performances with any concerns. One thing that stands is if all the noise was removed and only the play on the field was viewed many would certainly have enjoyed it.
Babe Ruth was spectacular and amazing, but he did not have to combat the immdediacy and scope of todays communication devices. Nor did he deal with the onslaught of characters intruding in every aspect of his life on and off the field with the ability to print or text or film or convey their views or images to the world in a nano second. Not many can stand up to that type of scrutiny and a good deal of positive sentiment can turn sour when the target is on your back. Stories used to be passed down word of mouth and embelishment often occurred, but today there is instant evidence carried via talking heads on the TV or pictures posted on the internet or chat sessions or message boards and everyone becomes an instant judge and jurist. Feel the way you want, but take a break from the the extremes.
Bonds play on the field over his entire career has been spectacular and then amazing. How it came to be will be looked upon individually. Some will condem, others will acknowledge an edge and accept, some will never cloud the performances with any concerns. One thing that stands is if all the noise was removed and only the play on the field was viewed many would certainly have enjoyed it.
Babe Ruth was spectacular and amazing, but he did not have to combat the immdediacy and scope of todays communication devices. Nor did he deal with the onslaught of characters intruding in every aspect of his life on and off the field with the ability to print or text or film or convey their views or images to the world in a nano second. Not many can stand up to that type of scrutiny and a good deal of positive sentiment can turn sour when the target is on your back. Stories used to be passed down word of mouth and embelishment often occurred, but today there is instant evidence carried via talking heads on the TV or pictures posted on the internet or chat sessions or message boards and everyone becomes an instant judge and jurist. Feel the way you want, but take a break from the the extremes.
PCX,
Do you remember Ben Johnson?
If he had access to a BALCO in his day, he would have been allowed to keep his Olympic gold medal and world record. He cheated and got caught by a test.
Bonds cheated and KNEW he could not be caught by the tests because of the work done by BALCO.
Here is a quote from Rowdy Gaines talking about Shirley Babashoff, who was screwed out of medals in multiple Olympic games by the juiced-up East German women swimmers.....
"I was only 17 when Shirley swam in Montreal," Gaines said, "so I guess I was one of those swimmers who thought she shouldn't be complaining about what was happening with the East Germans, that she should just accept it. I feel really guilty now for even thinking that. As the years went on, I said to myself, 'Oh my gosh, she was so right.' "
It was only after the fall of the Berlin Wall that the documented evidence of state-sponsored steriod-use in atheletes was going on.
The athletes knew at the time something was up though as did anyone who saw these "women". They did not need test results to know that performances were were being enhanced. Women who were only average swimmers their entire career were suddenly setting world records.
The Bonds situation is no different!
He is cheating his way to these records. If some people need to wait until the "Wall" falls in this case too, well, that is their issue.
There is documented evidence from the BALCO labs of Bonds cycles and tests, but because it was leaked testimony & published in a book, some decide it does not count.
Ask those Olympic athletes who worked their butts off only to lose to cheaters if they think it's unfair to speak up to the obvious.
Barry's cranium is the same evidence as the physiques of those East German swimmers.
Do you remember Ben Johnson?
If he had access to a BALCO in his day, he would have been allowed to keep his Olympic gold medal and world record. He cheated and got caught by a test.
Bonds cheated and KNEW he could not be caught by the tests because of the work done by BALCO.
Here is a quote from Rowdy Gaines talking about Shirley Babashoff, who was screwed out of medals in multiple Olympic games by the juiced-up East German women swimmers.....
"I was only 17 when Shirley swam in Montreal," Gaines said, "so I guess I was one of those swimmers who thought she shouldn't be complaining about what was happening with the East Germans, that she should just accept it. I feel really guilty now for even thinking that. As the years went on, I said to myself, 'Oh my gosh, she was so right.' "
It was only after the fall of the Berlin Wall that the documented evidence of state-sponsored steriod-use in atheletes was going on.
The athletes knew at the time something was up though as did anyone who saw these "women". They did not need test results to know that performances were were being enhanced. Women who were only average swimmers their entire career were suddenly setting world records.
The Bonds situation is no different!
He is cheating his way to these records. If some people need to wait until the "Wall" falls in this case too, well, that is their issue.
There is documented evidence from the BALCO labs of Bonds cycles and tests, but because it was leaked testimony & published in a book, some decide it does not count.
Ask those Olympic athletes who worked their butts off only to lose to cheaters if they think it's unfair to speak up to the obvious.
Barry's cranium is the same evidence as the physiques of those East German swimmers.
quote:Originally posted by BeenthereIL:quote:To Beenthere:
Please let your wife know that Babe Ruth was not getting steroid help from his hot dogs.
Dear old dad....If you would pay attention to the thread and read the article that the initial poster was referring to, you would know what you are posting is drivel and nonsense. Has nothing to do with my wife.
Beenthere, I apologize, my mistake.
I have deleted the paragraph in my post about the steroids in hot dogs.quote:Beenthere, I apologize, my mistake. I have deleted the paragraph in my post about the steroids in hot dogs.
Dear old dad...I'm one, too.
I'll delete my comments, too.
jp
Ruth hit to a 295 foot right field wall at Yankee stadium. Some of his pop-up home runs should be taken away, or at least an * put by his numbers. As much as people love him, I wouldn't want my son to be like him.
I love to watch Bonds swing a bat. Wouldn't want my son to be like him either. Even if he never did steroids, I probably wouldn't like him much anyway. I talked to a major league player who told me about his personality. It wasn't real nice.
However, there is something wrong with guys like Bonds and Ruth to get that good. They usually have personality and other disorders. What makes them practice and do the things they did to get that good? They aren't normal.
We have all bought off on some foolishness though. "A person is not guilty until proven guilty." That is simply not true. A person is either guilty or innocent about certain charges. The standard in court, "innocent until proven guilty" is not the standard we use to make judgment calls. Bonds is either guilty or not. I can draw a conclusion from what I have read and seen about his status. I don't have to wait for a jury.
I love to watch Bonds swing a bat. Wouldn't want my son to be like him either. Even if he never did steroids, I probably wouldn't like him much anyway. I talked to a major league player who told me about his personality. It wasn't real nice.
However, there is something wrong with guys like Bonds and Ruth to get that good. They usually have personality and other disorders. What makes them practice and do the things they did to get that good? They aren't normal.
We have all bought off on some foolishness though. "A person is not guilty until proven guilty." That is simply not true. A person is either guilty or innocent about certain charges. The standard in court, "innocent until proven guilty" is not the standard we use to make judgment calls. Bonds is either guilty or not. I can draw a conclusion from what I have read and seen about his status. I don't have to wait for a jury.
The only difference that a trial will make is to give Bonds the opportunity to deny these charges and to explain how he got the way he is. There is nothing to prevent him from doing that now. His silence is deafening.