BR Over-runs First Base

Well the play wasn't dead until the ump calls time but I have him safe because his intent was not to go to second.  His intent was to not break his neck.  Just because you end up in fair territory doesn't mean you're live to be tagged out.

Safe - he made no attempt (or fake) towards 2nd.  If he had walked, he would be out (another FED rule that makes absolutely no sense).

Well if those are the only two choices then I'll choose None Of The Above.

And, we might as well right now address the myth that the runner need to turn to his right and / or in foul territory to avoid being liabel  to be called out if tagged.

As Dash indicates the rule requires the runner to make an attempt and it doesn't need to be much of an attempt to give up his protection.

What other options are there besides safe or out? And how would you apply the "none-of-the-above" option you outlined?

I knew it was a myth that the runner needed to turn one way or the other. So how would you define an attempt?  Just looking for some very seasoned experience here, not trying to be a jerk...

Yes. I have to coach this out of my kids the moment I get them. 

Sorry - just saw the error of my original post - "ring-him-up or play was over and ball was dead".  Should have been was he safe or was he out.  My mistake, and those terms do make a huge difference.

Play is not dead, however BR should not be out since he was running through the bag and not attempting to go to second.

What did the umpire call?

BU originally called the runner out. Other coach argued, league umpire supervisor was called in and said exactly what Dash said, after-which PU overturned the call.

In the end, it was the right call and I have no problem with the call being made correctly! It just seemed a little odd.

I am sharing your replies with the other two coaches on my team... One just reminded me that the hit went to CF, not an infield groud ball as I had indicated.  Assistant Coach also said BR tripped rounding the base, but I don't remember him rounding.  I don't know why the BR's feet got tangled, but where he fell rounding would make sense...

If BR tripped while attempting to round first, and was tagged off the bag, he should have been out. If he tripped past first base after running through the bag, with no attempt to go to second, he should be safe.

According to this he should have been called out unless it was the first baseman who caused him to trip.  Then we have obstruction.

As I said, I don't remember the BR rounding, but where/how he landed it makes sense.  The throw from CF pulled F3 toward the mound side of the bag, and F3 didn't obstruct the BR.  I honestly thought BR was just clumsy (no rule against that - in fact, later in the game our F3 tripped over his own feet leading-off first-no play made on him). It was a bizarre situation that just didn't seem right.  38 years playing/coaching/umpiring this game and I haven't seen this one before.

You all are awesome!  This is by far the best baseball specific site on the web!

Thanks gents!

Wait a minute - so this kid gets a base hit to CF and the CF tries to throw him out at first????  I want meet this kid and race him.  As fat and slow as I am I'm feeling pretty good about my chances.

If the BR didn't touch first the 1B could tag him and appeal the non touch...  I know not the OP issue, but something you do have to think about.

You got it, and had the throw been on-line, BR would have been out!  I think what happened is BR got a little complacent and thought the base-hit was a done deal... to be fair though, our CF has a rocket hanging from his shoulder, too!

BR definitely touched 1B.  It was three steps after touching up where the buffoonary ocurred.

this points to one of my frusterations in dealing with questions from fans / coaches whether on sites like this or in person.  the play is mis-described and then the fan learns a myth or the umpire who made the original call I s blamed.  or the play is properly described but then a similar play happens that differs in one important aspect whcich correctly results in a different ruling and the coach comes unglued.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying any of that happened here only that is has happened and does happen all to frequently.

Im saying that is exactly what happened here.......the original post that was answered correctly by Dash bore no resemblence to the post it morphed into.....

and that is exactly why its hard to answer these questions definitively......but at least it got sorted out in the end..... 

Well piaa, glad to know that you're clarevoyant enough to see into my mind.  Wish you had been around when I posted the original, maybe then I wouldn't have made the mistake(s).  I accepted a couple of mistakes made, and was corrected by a couple of posters here, as well as my assistant coach when I shared the info with him.  So, yes I made a mistake in my original post, but look at what I've learned from all of you here... I also wasn't complaining about the call, rather trying to educate myself on what happened (as I recalled the event, at the time).  Hope you never make a mistake piaa...

I still say this is the best baseball specific site on the web.  I

piaa made a non-judgmental, factual analysis and the original poster gets his panties in a knot and responds sarcastically and childishly.  

This site remains the best baseball specific site, in part, because we, fortunately, get so few posters who don't understand what piaa was saying.

So, other than where the throw came from, what is really all that different from the original post? F3 was still pulled off the bag, BR still ran through 1B and fell down three steps beyond the bag-but in fair territory, F3 still applied the tag.  I maintain that I don't remember BR "rounding" the base, but where he fell, rounding makes sense.  The only real difference in the situation, as I see it, was brought-up by noumpere and Dash, in that one must define what an attempt to go to second base is, "As Dash indicates the rule requires the runner to make an attempt and it doesn't need to be much of an attempt to give up his protection." - noumpere  So, I ask again from all of you, what constitutes an attempt?

If it is the same as the "legal" definition of pornography ("I know it when I see it"), then that's fine.  I asked what constitutes an attempt shortly after noumpere replied the first time, and nobody ever addressed that.

Just an FYI Jimmy03, when someone calls integrity into question, that is a judgemental analysis, and usually is chaffing to the one who is being accused of being disingenuous.  Yup, I used sarcasm but I would like to know which part of my response was childish - was it the acceptance of my responsibility, or something else Jimmy03?

Piaa, my appologies for the sarcasm.  I did accept the original answer from Dash, and am still very grateful for his response!  I am not trying to be accusatory toward any on this board, and sincerely appreciate all of the advice and clarifications offered here!  It is the expertise of you gentlemen that make this site the best baseball specific site on the web.

Thanks y'all, and have a good day!

Well really you didn't make a mistake so much as post 2 entirely different situations.

An IF single BR is trying to beat out and trips on bag vs. a single to CF in which he rounds the bag and trips.

Not being a schmuck, just re-enforcing piaa post and why it shouldn't offend you.

OK, I can see that.

Whether the throw came from CF or from SS, there was a play on BR at 1B - i.e., the throw from CF may as well have been a throw from SS that BR was trying to beat out.  As stated earlier, had the throw been on-line, this whole post could have been moot because the timing of the play was "that close."  I am not sure that everyone understands, but I said it in the original post, the runner DID NOT trip on the bag, he tripped after taking three steps beyond the bag.  I appreciate your candor, and thank you for pointing out the issue I was overlooking. 

Ironhorse, could you please clarify what constitutes and attempt?

Is the runner taking any step with the thought that "hey if something happens I might be able to make second?" or is he just running through the bag because he was hauling a** in a straight line like he was trying for a personal best in his 30 yard dash time?

and yes it is like your pornography definition above.

Hard to do it definitively. If a guy rounds the base it definitely constitutes an attempt to me. Any hard, aggressive steps in the direction of 2b after running through the bag. Really anything other than turning and walking back in the direction of 1b. 

But realistically to me it is something you simply know when you see.

Noumpere and Ironhorse, thanks for your clarifications!  I appreciate your responses.  You both confirmed what I thought - you know the attempt when you see it.  That really was the situation from Monday night... I couldn't definitively say the BR made an attempt at second base.

To everyone, from Coach2709, Dash, piaa_ump, Jimmy03 and all the rest, thank you all for helping me to understand a strange situation!  I truly appreciate all of you and your input helping me to be a better coach and umpire, and to know the game better!

An attempt can be a lot of things. The step toward third or a round is easy. But it can be something as subtle as an upper body stabbing that way but no actual step. As already noted, the direction you turn on the overrun is irrelevant. You can actually turn foul and make an attempt toward second becoming liable. 

Michael - I was hoping you'd weigh in on this, as your insights are some of my favorites on thsi site.  Thanks for helping to clarify what is considered an attempt, it helps me to make better sense of what I saw (but couldn't restate clearly).  I did know about the myth of the direction of the turn being the determining factor, but was having trouble with the whole definition of "an attempt" which you all have helped to clarify.

Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in here!

An attempt can be somewhat in the eye of beholder. But I have seen guys run through the base, turn drastically into foul, see an overthrow, take a step toward second, decide against it and then be liable to be tagged out.