Bringing out the rule book

The coach could ask but but besides my partner and I privately discussing the call/rule, we will NOT be looking in any rulebook.
I'm not going to the dugout because the coach called me over, per this situation, and...see my 1st comment.

I will happily discuss a rule interpretation on the field. I do not go to dugouts. I do not refer to a rulebook during the game. A coach who brings a rulebook on the field is done for the day.

A coach who does not receive what he feel is a satisfactoy answer to a rules question is free to contact the assigner after the game.

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I will happily discuss a rule interpretation on the field. I do not go to dugouts. I do not refer to a rulebook during the game. A coach who brings a rulebook on the field is done for the day.

A coach who does not receive what he feel is a satisfactoy answer to a rules question is free to contact the assigner after the game.

Agreed though I will give him a chance to put it away. It is a matter of respect and credibility. And, perception is everything. An umpire having to be shown the rule should not be calling a game he doesn't know the rules to. Even if correct, the umpire still looks like he doubted himself and will open the flood gates.

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A coach who does not receive what he feel is a satisfactoy answer to a rules question is free to contact the assigner after the game.

I hope they allow for protests! Otherwise it doesn't do much good to call the assigner if the umpire was wrong..

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:
... coach who brings a rulebook on the field is done for the day...

Why? If you are wrong, you are wrong. If you AND your partner are wrong, then that is a problem. Granted this hardly ever happens.

If it was a call that involved a rule (not judgement), doesn't a coach simply file a protest if he believes the umpire was wrong?

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If it was a call that involved a rule (not judgement), doesn't a coach simply file a protest if he believes the umpire was wrong?

Not all states allow that..

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Originally posted by redbird5:

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:
... coach who brings a rulebook on the field is done for the day...

Why? If you are wrong, you are wrong. If you AND your partner are wrong, then that is a problem. Granted this hardly ever happens.

The umpire is arbiter of the game. The coach is the coach. A coach bringing a rule book to the field has, at least since the 1940's been consider inciting action, intended more to stir up the fans and show up the umpire than get a rule right. Ejection is, at most levels immediate.

This is similar to a coach demonstrating. Boom...gone.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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A coach who does not receive what he feel is a satisfactoy answer to a rules question is free to contact the assigner after the game.

I hope they allow for protests! Otherwise it doesn't do much good to call the assigner if the umpire was wrong..

Depends on the objectve. If he wants to know if he was right about the rule, he calls. If he was guessing the ump was wrong at the game and now doesn't care if he was right or wrong...no need to call. If he wants to protest and it is allowed. He calls. If he wants to protest and it isn't allowed he doesn't call. But in that scenario, the protest wouldn't have been heard on the field either.

Leave the rulebook in the dugout.

This is not a debate which will end unless a rule comes out about it one way or the other. Some tournaments have it in their rules.

There are those who want it or allow it. Others who don't want it or won't allow it. It has been a debate as long as I can remember.

Bottom line is you better know the umpire you are approaching or have a rule to support it. If you don't, odds are the rulebook needs to stay in the dugout.

Count me in as an umpire who will auto eject the coach for bringing the rulebook out. The appeal process is to go to the umpire who made the call and if the umpire allows a meeting with other ump(s) to discuss, then whatever ruling they make stands.

I do not know any league where a coach cannot protest based on a "rule interpretation" prior to the next pitch being thrown.

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Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
This is not a debate which will end unless a rule comes out about it one way or the other.

If it varies, that will be based on training and/level of ball.

The proschools, PBUC and NCAA clinics instruct to eject if a rulebook comes on the field. Is it specifically in the rule book, of course not. Much of game management isn't. But it is certainly included on the policy sheets handed out at school.

I don't know about youth ball. I don't work it. But I work HS the same way as college when it comes to game management.

I can't tell you date exactly, but it was way before I was driving (legally anyway), heard a LL coach in the dugout say, "ya never bring a rule book on the field, you'll be gone before ya get past the cover."

Late 80's, I go to my first sit down discussion type umpire clinic. During group discussion about some ruling, somebody say's well "what if coach show's ya in the book." Speaker say's something like, "he'd be gone before he could get past the cover," or something similar.

Never doubted it, but often wondered why?
Even the book say's to carry and refer if needed.

So, your gone for showing blue up. It's a given and everybody know's it, now at least, thanks for asking d8.

I've seen it ounce, HC, nicest guy you wanna meet, and he was right, on a change. Blue, no you can't. HC pulls out his RB with the very page folded open, now he did get past the cover, but that's a far as he got, gone.

I'd compare it to a batter, thinking a ball is outside, reaching over and drawing a line in the sand, you won't find that in the book, but the result is the same. Where as a polite, quiet; is that as far out as they go blue?"
Would be appropriate.

The same goes for
Coaches if you have the rule book and know the rule, simply state your case, "no reason" to show a book, the book isn't gonna change between now and what ever protest mechanisim is in place.

Perhaps; "blue, I have this very reference in my bag, if you think refering to it will help clarify."

Would be appropriate.

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The coach could ask but but besides my partner and I privately discussing the call/rule, we will NOT be looking in any rulebook.

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I do not refer to a rulebook during the game. A coach who brings a rulebook on the field is done for the day.

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It is a matter of respect and credibility. And, perception is everything. An umpire having to be shown the rule should not be calling a game he doesn't know the rules to. Even if correct, the umpire still looks like he doubted himself and will open the flood gates.

So it's not about getting the call right? It's about you looking good, huh?

That is not what he is saying at all. Pulling a rulebook is the same as throwing a hat or any other action that shows up an umpire. I realize there are guys out there that don't spend the time to know and understand the rules and will smoke a rule from time to time. Hopefully when a rule discussion comes up, the manager may jog something to make him realize it, if not the discussion with his partner should get things straight. Sometimes rules get smoked and there just isn't anything a manager can do. Personally, I will ask a coach if he would like to protest if he doesn't accept my explanation.
There are many states that don't allow protests in HS and I believe that is completely stupid and shortsighted.
The problem is the answer to a rules question many times involves several different rules and even sometimes even interp manuals. Finding the answer in a timely fashion isn't always easy. So what happens is the umpires look incompetant and nothing gets solved.

I did it once.

Got promptly tossed.

I was a new coach and unfamiliar with the policy.

I learned quickly.

Don't bring the rulebook out. I didn't intend to show up the umpire and didn't realize I was doing it but after the ump explained it to me after the game (I was miffed, stuck around and asked for an explanation, and understood once I got it) I never even thought of doing it again.

Let me ask the coaches here one thing: If you called for a squeeze and it failed, resulting in a double play, would you want the umpire opening a "Coaching 101" book at the plate and showing you the "When to Squeeze" section?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

So it's not about getting the call right? It's about you looking good, huh?

Don't know who this is addressed to, but my answer is no. It's about game management and experienced coaches know it.

It falls into the same category as demonstrating:

Coach comes out and argues a pitch then starts drawing lines in the dirt where he believes a pitch was. Boom, Gone.

Coach points to where catcher was set up or where tag was made. Boom, Gone.

Coach demonstrates pickoff move. Boom, Gone.

Coach demonstrates how batter pulled bat back. Boom , Gone.

Coach comes out to argue rule and opens up rule book. Boom, Gone.

At least at the levels I work. Umpires and coaches both know it. I am amazed any of this comes as a surprise to anyone involved above youth ball.

But if you're Joe West, you'll take the bat out of the batter's hand and draw the line in the dirt for him. Or you'll come around to the front of an umpire and wave your finger in his face chewing him out.

If the coach or player "shows up" the ump, he gets tossed and likely fined. If the umpire "shows up" a player or coach, they just have to deal with it.

No offense Bulldog but using Joe West really doesn't help your argument. West is a prima donna and has been labeled among the worst umpires by MLB players for years. He may be entertaining but he isn't respected by players or coaches.

That doesn't and shouldn't give other coaches license to go out and show up umpires that are doing their job right. Whether intentional or not bringing a rulebook out can and is considered an insult to an umpire and an attempt to give the impression that an umpire doesn't know the rules.

In this case using Joe West as an excuse is your way of saying 'well Johnny acts like a jerk, why can't I?' Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
But if you're Joe West, you'll take the bat out of the batter's hand and draw the line in the dirt for him. Or you'll come around to the front of an umpire and wave your finger in his face chewing him out.

If the coach or player "shows up" the ump, he gets tossed and likely fined. If the umpire "shows up" a player or coach, they just have to deal with it.

If you want to argue that all umpires act like Country Joe, you'll get the same credibility that TR has here with his universal statements.

I will never argue that all coaches are the same. Many are great to work with. I will never argue that all umpires are the same. Some I won't work with.

I try to answer questions to the best of my ability based on what MLB, MilB, NCAA and NFHS want as evidenced by their instructions to umpires, policies, practices, training and tradition. If you're just looking for confirmation of an opinion, I can't help you.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
But if you're Joe West, you'll take the bat out of the batter's hand and draw the line in the dirt for him. Or you'll come around to the front of an umpire and wave your finger in his face chewing him out.

If the coach or player "shows up" the ump, he gets tossed and likely fined. If the umpire "shows up" a player or coach, they just have to deal with it.

1) I don't yell at players/coaches. They are gone before I ever have to think about yelling at one.

2) I don't draw lines for batters. If you want to be an artist, go back to art class. Here, I'll help you be on your way.

3) Bad comparison. We are not on TV so we don't have to put on a "show" for everyone. Most do their job and leave. And, I don't mean go unnoticed.

I would not want to "show up" an umpire. I am not talking about coming onto the field and waving the book around to make a point. That is why I added the part about coming over to the dugout. No one in the stadium needs to know what is going on. For all they know you are fixing a broken piece of your gear.

I just wanted to know how important it was to umpires to make sure the ruling on the field was correct. The consensus from this thread is “not so much”.

Well what about this scenario? I am sure all of you would never dream of such. Earlier this year my school was hosting a tournament. My team was not playing, but something came up on the field and the umpires and coaches were discussing what the ruling should be. I was close by and one of the umpires came over and asked if I had a rule book because he wanted to make sure he got this right. I did, and after a quick glance at the book the right decision was made and the game went on without a hitch. No one in the stadium thought less of the two umpires because they checked the rule. In fact it raised my view of this umpire and I have requested him for our play-off games this week.

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Originally posted by d8:
I would not want to "show up" an umpire. I am not talking about coming onto the field and waving the book around to make a point. That is why I added the part about coming over to the dugout. No one in the stadium needs to know what is going on. For all they know you are fixing a broken piece of your gear.

I just wanted to know how important it was to umpires to make sure the ruling on the field was correct. The consensus from this thread is “not so much”.

Well what about this scenario? I am sure all of you would never dream of such. Earlier this year my school was hosting a tournament. My team was not playing, but something came up on the field and the umpires and coaches were discussing what the ruling should be. I was close by and one of the umpires came over and asked if I had a rule book because he wanted to make sure he got this right. I did, and after a quick glance at the book the right decision was made and the game went on without a hitch. No one in the stadium thought less of the two umpires because they checked the rule. In fact it raised my view of this umpire and I have requested him for our play-off games this week.

It is not about "being correct". It is about perception. Many of us spend a lot of time to attempt to get the calls correct off the field by reading rule books and manuals. If it wasn't important to get the call correct, we wouldn't do it.

Now, you want this umpire for your games. If you think he is incorrect, are you going to ask him to consult the book? I'm sure you will say no but we will see. Especially after the first time he is incorrect, now, there will be doubt about any questionable call. And, thus, another side effect to consulting the book when he should have known it ahead of time.

Mr Umpire.....I like your tag line.....that is all I am doing here.

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Originally posted by d8:
Mr Umpire.....I like your tag line.....that is all I am doing here.

OK. Fine with me.

As far as Joe West goes, the drawing the line was not wrong. He had a batter too far forward and no line, he put a line in so he could make the call.
The finger pointing thing, not his finest moment.

C'Mon Bulldog......Do you really think umpires in general are trying to show up players/coaches? I have worked with many different partners at many levels up to high school ball and not once did we try to show up anyone. Caoches and sometimes players generally are the instigators since they choose to argue/complain about the strike zone, and judgement calls neither of which are arguable in baseball.

As for "cowboy" Joe West you are talking about an MLB ump who has worked 7-league championships and 5-World Series (crew chief in 2005). They just don't give MLB umps these assignments, they are earned. He may be a little quick on the trigger but he is a quality ump.

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Originally posted by Wklink:
Joe West...may be entertaining...

And he makes a heckuva vest.

he can also hit a golf ball a country mile.............laft or right handed. very impressive. not to shabby at the buffet table either.

A varsity coach with a rule book situation happened just once to me.

Home team is in the 1B side dugout, I'm in "A", when the HC calls to me that the V pitcher has an illegal uniform. I hadn't noticed anything to this point (3rd inning), but looked again... "Coach, his uni is OK". Between the next at bat, as I'm walking back to "A", I see him with rulebook in hand, looking at me as he starts to walk out of the dugout. "Coach, dont come out here with that", that was enough for him to toss it onto the bench and request time, which I granted.

Now this coach is known for being ticky tac, one who always complains about alleged minor infractions, at the expense of actually coaching his team (we've all run into this type). So, he comes out and again says that F1's uni is illegal. I ask in what way, he says that F1's hat doesn't have the letter B (1st letter if the teams school name)but the rest of the team have it. I give him a stare and tell him to get back to the dugout.
After the game, walking through the V teams gate, the VC politely asked what was the issue with the HC and his F1. After telling him, he mentions that since they are a small rural school, the players have to buy their own hats, all the same 2 colors, but F1 couldnt get the "B" embroidered on in time.....

True story....