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From the new ESPN article, here's a quote from Mr. Harper, and it's OUTSTANDING:

“Baseball’s tired,” he says. “It’s a tired sport, because you can’t express yourself. You can’t do what people in other sports do. I’m not saying baseball is, you know, boring or anything like that, but it’s the excitement of the young guys who are coming into the game now who have flair. If that’s Matt Harvey or Jacob deGrom or Manny Machado or Joc Pederson or Andrew McCutchen or Yasiel Puig — there’s so many guys in the game now who are so much fun.

“Jose Fernandez is a great example. Jose Fernandez will strike you out and stare you down into the dugout and pump his fist. And if you hit a homer and pimp it? He doesn’t care. Because you got him. That’s part of the game. It’s not the old feeling — hoorah ... if you pimp a homer, I’m going to hit you right in the teeth. No. If a guy pimps a homer for a game-winning shot ... I mean — sorry.”

He stops, looks around. The hell with it, he’s all in.

“If a guy pumps his fist at me on the mound, I’m going to go, ‘Yeah, you got me. Good for you. Hopefully I get you next time.’ That’s what makes the game fun. You want kids to play the game, right? What are kids playing these days? Football, basketball. Look at those players — Steph Curry, LeBron James. It’s exciting to see those players in those sports. Cam Newton — I love the way Cam goes about it. He smiles, he laughs. It’s that flair. The dramatic.”

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I think Bryce Harper is at an interesting crossroads - he cold take hold of the mantle of the best player in the sport and become the face of the game.  If he does he will influence how the game is played.  His first move will be to introduce 60 year old white men to pimping apparently.

On the other hand if he does not fulfill that promise he will be regarded as all variations of a self centered millennial that didn't get it.

He has a lot of the feel of Labron James to me.  Supremely talented and a child prodigy identified as a 14/15 year old as the next great thing.  Basically fulfilling that promise but somehow not loved as other players are.  No matter what they do it might never be enough.

"little bitch"???  Whatever.

Anyway....  the thing is, is Bryce right?  Or Chris Rock before him?  Maybe. If you watch a Tuesday game in, for example, Tampa, it sure seems that like the sport is becoming irrelevant.   But go to AT&T Park (for example) any day in the season against any opponent and you'll find a sold out crowd having the time of their lives.  What's the difference?  Better team?  Better stadium?  That's part of it. But there are good teams in good stadiums that don't draw that well. Baltimore, for example.  I guess it's the culture of the city and the culture of the club.  It takes years to build both up, or tear both down. Again, Baltimore is a good example.

old_school posted:

Maybe because he is self center childish...I can't stand the guy or the way I have seen him act. But I also think Cam is punk and the super bowl pretty much showed what he is...

Does anyone consider Trout boring? Bryant, Stanton, Correa or how many countless others? Nope Harper is just a little bitch IMO.

whoa what...how did the Super Bowl show how much of a punk Cam is?  Because he was dominated by the #1 defense in the NFL.  His own O-Line ripped apart (not his fault) by a type of defense he never faced in the regular season (Seattle who?).  He was superb in the regular season given his receiving corp and the running game wasn't the best.  Sure he dances, celebrates, talks trash...but at the same time not much was said about the Discount Double Check, Ray Lewis Dance or Ickey Shuffle.  He didn't stomped on anyone's leg on the field, nor grope any women off the field....I wonder why Cam is any different....

But you're right in that Trout, Bryant, Stanton, Correa....none of those guys are boring one bit.  I'm partial to pitchers, I like seeing closers pump that fist, shooting that celebratory arrow or crossing the arms point to the sky, so what's wrong with batters showing emotion too?  These guys aren't robots.  They're doing what they love.  Shoot, if I win a case at work, damn right I'm pumping my fist and yelling "BOOOM you can't see me, son!"  Well...on the inside....

Like him or not, the game is better with Harper.  Trout is good for the game, Puig....good for the game too.  Each gets people that may have only a passing interest in the game to follow along and see what they'll do next.   The people that don't like Harper for his antics are so entrenched in the game that it doesn't really matter, they are going to watch the game regardless.   Baseball needs to new fans, the diehards aren't going anywhere for any reason. 

old_school posted:

Maybe because he is self center childish...I can't stand the guy or the way I have seen him act. But I also think Cam is punk and the super bowl pretty much showed what he is...

Does anyone consider Trout boring? Bryant, Stanton, Correa or how many countless others? Nope Harper is just a little bitch IMO.

I'm just curious....how have you seen him act?  Another poster mentioned his "antics".  I am just curious what antics you are talking about?

I guess one of the reason's that baseball is "boring" is that the game and season itself is a marathon and not a sprint, relative to football and baseball.  For that, many believe that a player must be long and established before they can challenge the social mores that the old guard deem acceptable.

I have no issue with guys that have reached the highest levels showing some flair. If I want to love or hate it, that's up to me.  I get that as my generation dies, baseball is that much closer to dying itself, so it needs to be attractive to the new generation and for that to occur, Harper is 100% correct.

My only issue with it is when I see pee wee level kids (up to and including high school) mimicking the behavior.  My opinion is that a lot of it is poor sportsmanship and narcissistic.  I'm not a big fan of that behavior, especially in kids who haven't earned any right to act out that way.

That said, at the pro level, there's something to be said for polarizing figures.  People watch them. Some hoping they'll succeed, some hoping they'll fail. That's what Reggie Jackson did and baseball is in dire need of more characters to get people to tune in.  They can tune in to love or hate, so long as they tune in.

Last edited by Nuke83

I think one of the main things that sets baseball apart from the other sports that have more "flair" is the one on one / man vs. man aspect of the game.

In football, when Cam Newton scores...he has rarely just beaten one guy.  He, with the help of his teammates, beat an entire defense and scored. When he celebrates, he isn't really singling out one guy.

In baseball, when Yasiel Puig hits a homerun and flips his bat, then pimps it around the bases...he has only just beaten one man...the pitcher.  His "flair" is seen as very personal and is viewed as taunting. (In football if you direct your celebration at one player, you get a taunting penalty.)

I think the "personal" aspect of the "flair" in baseball is what prevents it from being as exuberant as the other sports.

2019Dad posted:

Baseball was so much better 30 and 40 years ago when none of the players were demonstrative or exhibited any personality:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzNBNuamv8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmukTdo-WuY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB-rdG4u_zU

Ah, heck, I forgot about Reggie Jackson! Thanks Nuke! And here's a 7-second video of Oil Can Boyd pumping his fist after a strikeout: www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8F2v4glEsE

The old days weren't as people remember them. I can just imagine the reaction nowadays if Bryce blew a kiss to the crowd like Kirk Gibson did in the second video, or if someone like, I don't know, Jose Bautista, flipped his bat like Tom Lawless -- Tom Lawless!! -- did in the third video. ;-)

2019Dad posted:
2019Dad posted:

Baseball was so much better 30 and 40 years ago when none of the players were demonstrative or exhibited any personality:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzNBNuamv8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmukTdo-WuY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB-rdG4u_zU

Ah, heck, I forgot about Reggie Jackson! Thanks Nuke! And here's a 7-second video of Oil Can Boyd pumping his fist after a strikeout: www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8F2v4glEsE

The old days weren't as people remember them. I can just imagine the reaction nowadays if Bryce blew a kiss to the crowd like Kirk Gibson did in the second video, or if someone like, I don't know, Jose Bautista, flipped his bat like Tom Lawless -- Tom Lawless!! -- did in the third video. ;-)

The Mad Hungarian!!! 

Demonstrative? Try the late, great Mark Fidrych. 

If you've got it, flaunt it. The game needs to be shortened and spiced with more personality. Love it.

Harpers "antics" include dying his hair white, not running out lazy fly balls, being boorish with the press after bad games,  calling out teammates and his Skipper in the press but his antics also include moon shot homers, crashing into walls to make plays and stretching singles into doubles to name a few.  Derek Jeter had professional grace, always said the right thing to the press and seemed to always do the right thing on and off the field and people still hated him and wanted to see him fail.   Baseball needs hero's and it needs villain's to grow so whether a little leaguer quietly trots around the bases after a homer or "pimps it", I could care less because that kid is the future of this game.  Just.keep.playing!!!

Bryce Harper was an immature punk. What would anyone expect when a kid is constantly told he's a God of baseball while a teen? Sure he acted like a jerk in the majors. He was a teen in the majors. At twenty-two he has an MVP at an age most players are still in the minors.

Bryce Harper has grown up in the spotlight. I'll bet some of the hatred is just jealousy no one is supposed to be that good, that young. Yes, Trout came up and succeeded at a young age. But I don't recollect all eyes on him when he was fifteen asking if he's the next God of baseball.

When Harper is thirty he will probably sit down with some young potential stud. He'll tell him to tone it down. Get control of yourself. Anything else just adds scrutiny, pressure and criticism. Harper had to learn the hard way.

Heres another perspective to look at Harper. How much of Harper's tenacity that led him to sometimes act like an ass was what drove him to greatness? It's not uncommon for people with special gifts in any endeavor to be a little high strung. They know greatness is within them. Failure drives them crazy.

Last edited by RJM
Buzzard05 posted:

I think one of the main things that sets baseball apart from the other sports that have more "flair" is the one on one / man vs. man aspect of the game.

In football, when Cam Newton scores...he has rarely just beaten one guy.  He, with the help of his teammates, beat an entire defense and scored. When he celebrates, he isn't really singling out one guy.

In baseball, when Yasiel Puig hits a homerun and flips his bat, then pimps it around the bases...he has only just beaten one man...the pitcher.  His "flair" is seen as very personal and is viewed as taunting. (In football if you direct your celebration at one player, you get a taunting penalty.)

I think the "personal" aspect of the "flair" in baseball is what prevents it from being as exuberant as the other sports.

True, but on the flip side, not another teammate had his hand on the bat that Puig swung and hit the homerun.  If anything, your argument makes the opposite statement. What right does Newton have to pimp it when he would have been dropped for a 15 yard loss without the teammates making their assignments?  If anything, he should be bowing to the O line after scoring a touchdown, not dabbin' to make the show about him.

Again, maybe it's my old age, but I get that professional sports is entertainment.  There are billion dollar industries around it (fantasy, online gambling, ESPN, etc., etc.).  TMZ has a sports department doing nothing but doing the same thing they've done to celebrities for years.  For that reason, the games have become show business.  The jumbotron with Oscar quality bits, flame throwers at a hockey match, Pop concerts at superbowls, Grammy winners singing national anthems.

The days are gone of waiting until Thursday morning on the east coast to see the box scores from the "late" Tuesday night west coast games to see if Tony Gwynn went 4 for 4 again.  It really wasn't that long ago.  And with those days gone by, usher in the Justin Bieber's of the sports world.  That's what the new generation wants and if baseball is going to survive, it's what they'll be served.

someone above asked why I feel like I do about Harper,

in the minors a couple years back I remember seeing him blow kisses to the pitcher

I think it was 2 years ago he drug his foot across the braves emblem behind home plate...that to me is kind nothing but it got the home folks all fired up. what I found most insightful was after the game he denied, said he wasn't aware of he did and it was certainly unintentional. Seriously man up and accept what you did, I didn't even think it was a big deal but it showed the true punk character to lie about what you did with cameras recording it all.

I think got tossed 2 times last year maybe 3 for arguing a strike, at least one of them was in the middle of the AB and at least one of them he acted like total fool and deserved it (I am not a fan of umpires)

The memorable altercation with Paplebon (another dope) last year was brought on by him down right dogging it to first base...he is one of the biggest loafers on the bases out of the box in baseball. So many of you preach on here (me included) to play game with respect but he doesn't buy into that. he plays it the right when things are going well, when they aren't going.... goes in LB mode

There is more but those a few things off the top of my head, there are more.

Catch1721 posted:

Harpers "antics" include dying his hair white, not running out lazy fly balls, being boorish with the press after bad games,  calling out teammates and his Skipper in the press but his antics also include moon shot homers, crashing into walls to make plays and stretching singles into doubles to name a few.  Derek Jeter had professional grace, always said the right thing to the press and seemed to always do the right thing on and off the field and people still hated him and wanted to see him fail.   Baseball needs hero's and it needs villain's to grow so whether a little leaguer quietly trots around the bases after a homer or "pimps it", I could care less because that kid is the future of this game.  Just.keep.playing!!!

1) "boorish with the press after bad games, calling out teammates and his Skipper": Huh? We live in the DMV and have been following this team since they came to play at RFK. I see about 75% of the games via MASN including post games, as well as a subscriber to the WaPo. He is interviewed after every friggin' game, and I've never heard him throw a teammate under the bus. Your observation is a PDOOMA.

2) Regarding DJ: he always said the right thing to the press because he never had anything to say to the press!!!! He was infamous for the non-answer, and the press just accepted it and moved on to someone else. One of the greatest to wear pinstripes and one of the worst interviews, i.e., incredibly well-taught on how to handle the NY/NJ media.

One more thing about Bryce: he is incredibly good with the public, especially the kids. Unbelievable patience, and spends the time acting as an ambassador to the game. Example: joemktgson and teammates had the privilege of going to a Nats/Braves game in Atlanta this past summer, and there was only one guy who spent the time with each player, taking selfies, and acting genuinely happy to be there with the boys. That was Bryce.

havanajay posted:
old_school posted:

Maybe because he is self center childish...I can't stand the guy or the way I have seen him act. But I also think Cam is punk and the super bowl pretty much showed what he is...

Does anyone consider Trout boring? Bryant, Stanton, Correa or how many countless others? Nope Harper is just a little bitch IMO.

whoa what...how did the Super Bowl show how much of a punk Cam is?  Because he was dominated by the #1 defense in the NFL.  His own O-Line ripped apart (not his fault) by a type of defense he never faced in the regular season (Seattle who?).  He was superb in the regular season given his receiving corp and the running game wasn't the best.  Sure he dances, celebrates, talks trash...but at the same time not much was said about the Discount Double Check, Ray Lewis Dance or Ickey Shuffle.  He didn't stomped on anyone's leg on the field, nor grope any women off the field....I wonder why Cam is any different....

But you're right in that Trout, Bryant, Stanton, Correa....none of those guys are boring one bit.  I'm partial to pitchers, I like seeing closers pump that fist, shooting that celebratory arrow or crossing the arms point to the sky, so what's wrong with batters showing emotion too?  These guys aren't robots.  They're doing what they love.  Shoot, if I win a case at work, damn right I'm pumping my fist and yelling "BOOOM you can't see me, son!"  Well...on the inside....

Cam quit on his team in the super bowl, the fumble he actually got out of the way of...LOL that showed some true character. It is one thing to not try and make a play but it is different to runaway from it.

One of my golf buddies played 3 years in the NFL and nailed right away. the guy is selfish, self centered and just not a good teammate. as long as he is all pro the guys will just accept him because at the end of the day it about results. Next time Can goes into his super man pose and the rest of his antics watch how many times he blows off his teammates looking for a celebration so he preform his little dance...he is all about look at me I scored...doesn't make a damn bit if difference if he help or not - oh and the SB post game press conference...please he is a punk.

Do you think the kid from the "job market after baseball" thread would add these types of things to his resume about the character he learned chasing his dream? If Cam wasn't a super bowl QB or Harper a freak of nature hitter would they be "cool" or would they seen as wanna be guys who act like an ass?

IMO you can't have it both ways....you are either a system guy or you aren't.

old_school posted:
havanajay posted:
old_school posted:

Cam quit on his team in the super bowl, the fumble he actually got out of the way of...LOL that showed some true character. It is one thing to not try and make a play but it is different to runaway from it.

One of my golf buddies played 3 years in the NFL and nailed right away. the guy is selfish, self centered and just not a good teammate. as long as he is all pro the guys will just accept him because at the end of the day it about results. Next time Can goes into his super man pose and the rest of his antics watch how many times he blows off his teammates looking for a celebration so he preform his little dance...he is all about look at me I scored...doesn't make a damn bit if difference if he help or not - oh and the SB post game press conference...please he is a punk.

Do you think the kid from the "job market after baseball" thread would add these types of things to his resume about the character he learned chasing his dream? If Cam wasn't a super bowl QB or Harper a freak of nature hitter would they be "cool" or would they seen as wanna be guys who act like an ass?

IMO you can't have it both ways....you are either a system guy or you aren't.

So your golf buddy played with Cam for three years in the NFL?  Pretty cool. 

I'm 100% positive Cam nor Bryce will ever need to prepare a resume like the kid from other thread. 

I agree with you that Cam's immaturity shined like a mother in the post game conference, he came off like a sore loser...but I've never gone 17-1 and lose in the SB.  I couldn't possibly know what emotions he was feeling.  But for sure it wasn't a good look for his persona.  I just find it interesting that Cam is so much more in the spotlight for his punk-ness than guys like Big Ben or Greg Hardy and their women problems.  Back to the OP, I just find it hypocritical with not having an overblown issue of pitchers celebrating a big K and having an issue with running one flap down.

Catch1721 posted:

Joe, read the entire article you posted.   Harper said in the article, "should have went to directly to Pap" instead of talking to the press.  You can also google up a couple instances where Harper second guessed the lineup that Matt Williams rolled out.  I had to google pdooma and fyi, it should have read pdooya.   

 

1) He should've gone directly to Pap and knocked his skull in. Pap roundly booed in his first Spring Training outing...in Viera!

2) I recall only one instance of questioning the lineup, and he wasn't the only one in that clubhouse...nor in the general public. MW turned out to be a terrible hire. And as a result, Mike Rizzo is on a short leash.

Actually, I correctly used PDOOMA as it was positioned as an object (noun).

2019Dad posted:

Baseball was so much better 30 and 40 years ago when none of the players were demonstrative or exhibited any personality:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzNBNuamv8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmukTdo-WuY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB-rdG4u_zU

That is priceless!

Its very hard to have to literally grow up in front of millions. And no, not every player will act as we think they should. 

I think what he is trying to say is that what others get away with, he can't. Fernandez can fist pump, that's OK to show that emotion, but not OK for Harper to do so.   

BTW, one of the Websters son is a teammate and friend of that "little bitch", which IMO is completely inappropriate to call anyone.

I think with Matt Williams gone, things will be better, he certainly wasn't liked or respected very much by his players.  

Nuke83 posted:
Buzzard05 posted:

I think one of the main things that sets baseball apart from the other sports that have more "flair" is the one on one / man vs. man aspect of the game.

In football, when Cam Newton scores...he has rarely just beaten one guy.  He, with the help of his teammates, beat an entire defense and scored. When he celebrates, he isn't really singling out one guy.

In baseball, when Yasiel Puig hits a homerun and flips his bat, then pimps it around the bases...he has only just beaten one man...the pitcher.  His "flair" is seen as very personal and is viewed as taunting. (In football if you direct your celebration at one player, you get a taunting penalty.)

I think the "personal" aspect of the "flair" in baseball is what prevents it from being as exuberant as the other sports.

True, but on the flip side, not another teammate had his hand on the bat that Puig swung and hit the homerun.  If anything, your argument makes the opposite statement. What right does Newton have to pimp it when he would have been dropped for a 15 yard loss without the teammates making their assignments?  If anything, he should be bowing to the O line after scoring a touchdown, not dabbin' to make the show about him.

Again, maybe it's my old age, but I get that professional sports is entertainment.  There are billion dollar industries around it (fantasy, online gambling, ESPN, etc., etc.).  TMZ has a sports department doing nothing but doing the same thing they've done to celebrities for years.  For that reason, the games have become show business.  The jumbotron with Oscar quality bits, flame throwers at a hockey match, Pop concerts at superbowls, Grammy winners singing national anthems.

The days are gone of waiting until Thursday morning on the east coast to see the box scores from the "late" Tuesday night west coast games to see if Tony Gwynn went 4 for 4 again.  It really wasn't that long ago.  And with those days gone by, usher in the Justin Bieber's of the sports world.  That's what the new generation wants and if baseball is going to survive, it's what they'll be served.

My point was not to "justify" Cam's actions when he celebrates....or vilify Bautista if he flips his bat.

My point was...the celebrations are tolerated more in football because they aren't generally directed at a single individual you just "beat".  (As I said...if you do that in football you get a flag.)

In baseball, when you celebrate in any way, you are most likely celebrating a one on one  matchup you just won.  You either struck out somebody and are fist pumping on the mound...or flipping your bat after a HR.  It is much more "personal" in baseball when a player celebrates, and I think that is why it is tolerated less.

old_school posted:

someone above asked why I feel like I do about Harper,

in the minors a couple years back I remember seeing him blow kisses to the pitcher

I think it was 2 years ago he drug his foot across the braves emblem behind home plate...that to me is kind nothing but it got the home folks all fired up. what I found most insightful was after the game he denied, said he wasn't aware of he did and it was certainly unintentional. Seriously man up and accept what you did, I didn't even think it was a big deal but it showed the true punk character to lie about what you did with cameras recording it all.

I think got tossed 2 times last year maybe 3 for arguing a strike, at least one of them was in the middle of the AB and at least one of them he acted like total fool and deserved it (I am not a fan of umpires)

The memorable altercation with Paplebon (another dope) last year was brought on by him down right dogging it to first base...he is one of the biggest loafers on the bases out of the box in baseball. So many of you preach on here (me included) to play game with respect but he doesn't buy into that. he plays it the right when things are going well, when they aren't going.... goes in LB mode

There is more but those a few things off the top of my head, there are more.

(Sorry, just getting caught up on this thread...so that is why my responses are coming rapid fire.)

As for the incident in the minors...(a) I believe he was like 17 or 18, (b) the pitcher he did that too had "started" their little feud with some prior actions directed toward Harper. So, when he hit a HR off that guy later in the game...he probably acted like a 17 year old and "returned the favor". To be honest, as a 49 year old man...I would probably do the same thing today if somebody was acting like a douche to me.

Scratching out the Braves logo was in response to one of the Braves pitchers doing the same thing to the Nats logo on the back of the mound at Nats Stadium. (I happened to be watching that game and I was getting mad that the pitcher was doing that. The pitcher was later asked about it and said the colored clay in the logo gave him better grip or something...ok) Sorry, but I kinda like a player that is gonna stand up for my team.

As for the white hair....that was done in the off-season and away from baseball (I think it was this past off season.) How is that any different than Danny Espinosa growing out a HUGE fu manchu mustache and having it on his photo that is flashed on the jumbotron for every at bat (which I thought was hilarious by the way.) It's only different because it is Harper.

Anyway, as you can tell, I am a big Harper fan. I live in the DC and follow the Nats. The kid has been nothing but gracious here. He seems to come from a good family, with good values that keeps him out of the headlines for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Is Harper perfect....no. However, there are dozens if not hundreds of other players that have acted way worse on a consistent basis and get (or have gotten) zero criticism. Harper gets it, not because he is any worse than anybody else. Harper gets it because he is Harper.

Buzzard05 posted:
How is that any different than Danny Espinosa growing out a HUGE fu manchu mustache and having it on his photo that is flashed on the jumbotron for every at bat (which I thought was hilarious by the way.) It's only different because it is Harper.

 

In February, Danny came into Viera with this...

Consider all the traps that rich, talented, famous young people fall into--and then look at how Bryce Harper has avoided all of them by working hard, living by his values and staying close to his strong family.

In that context, the criticisms of him seem like nit picking. 

I tried to teach my kids never to resent excellence, even when it's demonstrated by rival players or teams. Respect it, acknowledge it, learn from it, try to emulate it. But don't hate it.

Sure, he had one of the greatest years a ball player has ever had, even more impressive than any triple crown winner's...a .649 slugging percentage while hitting only 42 home runs, reaching base at a .460 clip despite striking out over 100 times, scoring over 100 runs and playing great defense, and he could barely celebrate his accomplishments.  

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