bunted ball hits batter

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by scocar:

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

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Originally posted by scocar:

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.

Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?

Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.

I would say that an ejection is far more likely when a coach questions the umpire about the "force out" at first and the umpire arrogantly states "it's impossible to have a force out at first" like was done in this thread.

Are you incapable of seeing the difference between an Internet discussion and something that occurs on the field?

You sweat now so you don't bleed later. We nitpick now so there's not a ****house later.

No I'm not. But I've worked with many umpires that respond to coaches just like they do on these boards. Unbridled arrogance is not generally something you can turn on and off like a light switch.

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.

You obviously haven't read the thread. Someone made an incorrect reference to a force out. Hence the need to clarify what is and isn't one.

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Originally posted by scocar:
Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.

We take this seriously. Words mean things. There are proper and improper ways to umpire.

The only mean-spirited one here is you. You came looking for salvation on something, didn't like the answer, and now have the audacity to tell us how to act. I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and realize that you do not get to pick and choose what you want. You do not get to go into someone's house and make your rules theirs.

This is your house? Is that was is meant by your response?

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Originally posted by scocar:

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.

You obviously haven't read the thread. Someone made an incorrect reference to a force out. Hence the need to clarify what is and isn't one.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.

We take this seriously. Words mean things. There are proper and improper ways to umpire.

The only mean-spirited one here is you. You came looking for salvation on something, didn't like the answer, and now have the audacity to tell us how to act. I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and realize that you do not get to pick and choose what you want. You do not get to go into someone's house and make your rules theirs.

This is your house? Is that was is meant by your response?

I did read the thread. "It's impossible to have a force out at first" by itself does not "clarify". That response followed by an explanation would "clarify" the confusion. Most people (not umpires although some of them as well) refer to the putout of the batter-runner at first as a "force out". While that is incorrect it is an extremely common misconception. So it clearly begs for an explanation, not a one sentence refutation. The sentence with no explanation comes across as someone looking to arrogantly tout their baseball knowledge.

OBR 2.00

Definitions:
"A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

A BR isn't quite yet a runner, had nothing to occupy except a batters box, hence he isn't forced anywhere.

Real life, you tell this to a player, coach, fan, they'll stare right into your third eye...

True, well read/trained umpires will use this verbatim in the class room, at the bar as a trivia question, to stress the need to get your nose in the rule book, some as fodder to fill training time or pages in a book, or lines on a thread.

I've never been willing to jump in the argument and maintain my position on that fence.

As far as the rest of your posts, gloves and tape,
if it's not in the book, use you best game management judgement, through in some spirit of the game and fair play, take a safety/distraction perspective only and let em play.

OK, again I will play referee. We are waiting for clarification on what happened in the OP. We aren't sure if the BU killed the ball and they decide to call the BR out for interference, or on the throw to first. In the former the runners return, in the latter they stay where they are.
I always stress to new umpires and coaches both to sit and read rule 2.00. It is the basis of all of the rules and rulings. Without having this knowledge it causes all kinds of arguments and ejections.