Again, its the kids that are being invited to play on teams like Bergen Beach that are probably ALREADY being heavily recruited. Once again, its the kids that are already on the team that want and NEED the exposure, not the kids who already probably have numerous offers. It just does not make sense. It only makes sense if the only thing important to you is winning. But is it worth winning a tournament if a kid has worked for you for nine months and does not get the oppurtunity to throw in front of these scouts because of a new kid on the team?
How do you know for a fact that is the case ? Do you know anyone on Bergen that didnt get mound time because thay added a few pitchers ?
sulltiger24, I am talking in generality here. No, I don't know that for a fact. This is a discussion about ethics. Just think, if Mikey didn't get to play in front of the scouts because a new player was added, would you not be upset?
is that even legal? if you fly a kid in isn't that kid taking gifts? what's the difference between that and O.J mayo taking money from an agent early or having someone buy him a car? Nobody wants to answer that one, do they?
Mr.louisville
First of all " Mikey " has absolutely nothing to do with this . If you want to be on a first name basis , then im sure you will have no problem telling us who you are. Will anxiously await your next post to tell us your name.
All of a sudden you appear on this board beefing about some good pitchers helping out bergen ? Ethics schmethics --what a joke
First of all " Mikey " has absolutely nothing to do with this . If you want to be on a first name basis , then im sure you will have no problem telling us who you are. Will anxiously await your next post to tell us your name.
All of a sudden you appear on this board beefing about some good pitchers helping out bergen ? Ethics schmethics --what a joke
I only know your son's name because he has been mentioned on this board before..this illustrates that when the scenario affects your family it becomes very personal. The discussion is not about the pitchers helping Bergen it is about the players that may not have had an opportunity because of it..and no I do not think that ethics are a joke.
The fact that you are trying to inject " ethics : into this ---that is a joke .
Then what is this discussion about??? This thread goes a lot deeper than just the CABA World Series now. It is about whether it is ethical to bring in players to replace kids that have been working for and with the team for the better part of a year and take away their opportunities. That is what this is about. I'm not "injecting" anything in, I'm just adding to the discussion.
their gonna twist and turn things, bring up side topics and act like lawyers because they ultimately are avoiding all the tough questions. I still want someone to tell me if flying a kid out is even legal? Because it's known teams are doing that with kids that are already under college scholarships. So is it really about helping out that kid or about trying to make your organization better. But hey, i don't know what i am talking about I guess.
It sometimes pays to be informed of the facts before you post and make accusations against teams/organizations. Bergen doesnt play a regular tournament schedule all summer like sparks, tt rangers , blues or the others. They are basically a mercenary team that has players from different parts of the country. They are not a team that is together all summer , therefore no one is taking playing time away from anyone like you are suggesting . Next time , before posting ..have your facts in order for credible posting.
Woodly's ISO tournament that we played in with our 17U positional players and 18U pitchers, was not an exclusive 17U tournament. There were 17U, 18U and a mix of 18U and under teams. I think there was even a 16U team in the tournament. One group of our 17U pitchers was in Marietta, and we weren't going to use our 17U arms because of the IHSBCA summer regionals were starting on the following Monday. Every 18U pitcher of ours that came down to ISU, has a DI scholarship. Nobody got slighted because Austin came down. And man, he is enourmous!
Interesting how Woodly makes a great post, hits on a few great points and then gets his credibility questioned. Second guessed and questioned because he's in the business of running tourneys??
How absurd is that?
Not hard at all to understand that he could bring an important perspective here. The simplistic response from sulltiger 24 indicates that he's not really addressing the argument...what he is doing is trying to discredit everyone who disagrees with him.
The "Ad hominem" arguer can be a great cover for a person who is arguing in the "Not invented here" format..also known as the "This is the way we've always done it" argument.
"this is the way we've always done it" doesn't make it right, fair, ethical, smart etc...and more words that are exactly the sorts of concepts we try to instill in our children through the run of their childhood.
This entire ringer thing (and that's what it is) is, goes against all the things most parents try to teach their kids and there are several people here who absolutely refuse to understand anything about what the folks on the other side are saying????
Absurd, again.
Sulltiger and Tuzigoot...you guys are employing fallacious arguing methods...Nails has repeatedly offered up valid points as have woodly, and a few others.You continually deny that. That makes me a feel a bit suspicious about what your motives are.
You question Nails' motives all through this thing..the guy is, generally, making a plea for ethics in youth sports and the way teams are defined..that's ALL he's doing..why do you guys have such a huge problem with THAT? I admire the guy's persistence and general decent manners and you guys are trying to paint him as a variety of awful things...you call him a lurker?
why is he a lurker? What is a lurker?
He's a guy posting on a message board and making very reasonable discussions. Don't get to turf conscious here..this the internet..anyone can come and everyone has the right to protect their identity. Don't use his right to privacy as a part of your argument against him...that's another fallacious arguing mode...you guys are hitting just about every point on that list, look it up.
How absurd is that?
Not hard at all to understand that he could bring an important perspective here. The simplistic response from sulltiger 24 indicates that he's not really addressing the argument...what he is doing is trying to discredit everyone who disagrees with him.
The "Ad hominem" arguer can be a great cover for a person who is arguing in the "Not invented here" format..also known as the "This is the way we've always done it" argument.
"this is the way we've always done it" doesn't make it right, fair, ethical, smart etc...and more words that are exactly the sorts of concepts we try to instill in our children through the run of their childhood.
This entire ringer thing (and that's what it is) is, goes against all the things most parents try to teach their kids and there are several people here who absolutely refuse to understand anything about what the folks on the other side are saying????
Absurd, again.
Sulltiger and Tuzigoot...you guys are employing fallacious arguing methods...Nails has repeatedly offered up valid points as have woodly, and a few others.You continually deny that. That makes me a feel a bit suspicious about what your motives are.
You question Nails' motives all through this thing..the guy is, generally, making a plea for ethics in youth sports and the way teams are defined..that's ALL he's doing..why do you guys have such a huge problem with THAT? I admire the guy's persistence and general decent manners and you guys are trying to paint him as a variety of awful things...you call him a lurker?
why is he a lurker? What is a lurker?
He's a guy posting on a message board and making very reasonable discussions. Don't get to turf conscious here..this the internet..anyone can come and everyone has the right to protect their identity. Don't use his right to privacy as a part of your argument against him...that's another fallacious arguing mode...you guys are hitting just about every point on that list, look it up.
Well said Coho.
Coho
Talk about simplistic--saying i am discrediting woodly ?? That is absurd in itself. I made a point that is indeed a part of it..i dont think that mr. van horn needs you to defend him . He answered me in a respectful way and i certainly respect that. If he took offense to what i said , im sure he would let me know. I dont doubt that what he said about the recruiters viewpoint of some of these kids is true . That being said..i also have my viewpoint . I stand by my statements in response.
Who decides what kid is labled a " ringer " ??
You think you have that right ? Lets see you tell the player/parent that.
Heres some news for you COHO --Im order for a point to be valid ..there must be some sort of factual evidence to back it up ..nails has repeatedly failed to back up his statements. That equals --ZERO CREDIBILITY . Basically--irresponsible posting in a nut shell .
There is obviously an agenda here . They dont even have the facts straight . How can you condone someone making baseless accusations against a team/organization without having all the facts present ?? I would like to see you tell the players/parents themselves that they are violating some sort of ethics code . Who created this code of ethics ? Where is it written ? Who are you to tell a player / parent where they should be playing ? All this is is some players who wanted to play some good baseball with a good team . A judge would laugh you out of court .
There is no evidence to support any of this silly argument .
Nails--if you have some evidence of a team doing something illegal ..do something about it ...dont make accusations you cant back up on a message board.
Talk about simplistic--saying i am discrediting woodly ?? That is absurd in itself. I made a point that is indeed a part of it..i dont think that mr. van horn needs you to defend him . He answered me in a respectful way and i certainly respect that. If he took offense to what i said , im sure he would let me know. I dont doubt that what he said about the recruiters viewpoint of some of these kids is true . That being said..i also have my viewpoint . I stand by my statements in response.
Who decides what kid is labled a " ringer " ??
You think you have that right ? Lets see you tell the player/parent that.
Heres some news for you COHO --Im order for a point to be valid ..there must be some sort of factual evidence to back it up ..nails has repeatedly failed to back up his statements. That equals --ZERO CREDIBILITY . Basically--irresponsible posting in a nut shell .
There is obviously an agenda here . They dont even have the facts straight . How can you condone someone making baseless accusations against a team/organization without having all the facts present ?? I would like to see you tell the players/parents themselves that they are violating some sort of ethics code . Who created this code of ethics ? Where is it written ? Who are you to tell a player / parent where they should be playing ? All this is is some players who wanted to play some good baseball with a good team . A judge would laugh you out of court .
There is no evidence to support any of this silly argument .
Nails--if you have some evidence of a team doing something illegal ..do something about it ...dont make accusations you cant back up on a message board.
Mr. sulltiger,
Once again, again, this discussion is not just about Bergen Beach, it is about right and wrong. OK, they are not written anywhere. If this is about "some players who wanted to play some good baseball with a good team", then its about those players that were on the team originally that want to play good baseball with THEIR TEAM. But, unfortunately they might not get that opportunity because of the new additions to the roster. BTW, I know who my judge is and he doesn't laugh at anyone.
Once again, again, this discussion is not just about Bergen Beach, it is about right and wrong. OK, they are not written anywhere. If this is about "some players who wanted to play some good baseball with a good team", then its about those players that were on the team originally that want to play good baseball with THEIR TEAM. But, unfortunately they might not get that opportunity because of the new additions to the roster. BTW, I know who my judge is and he doesn't laugh at anyone.
for the 100th time, i don't have an agenda. What agenda could i possibly have, i am just stating my opinions. Kids don't switch teams in college, they don't get flown in to play with a different team, they are taught to work hard. I just think it's giving the kids the wrong message early. That's my agenda.
To say I don't have my facts straight is wrong on your part. Bergen Beach had a Chicago team last year that each week they flew kids in that were "national players" the parents got mad because the chicago kids were sitting when these kids came in just for one week. It got so bad that nobody wanted to come back except the kid you mentioned earlier. They held a tryout and charged kids to try out (the only team i know that does this) then after the tryout nobody from illinois made the team and they were told there's no chicago team this year just a national team. So was this a scam? Where's that tryout money and what was it for? If they got players in that took time from players that were already on the team last year it's safe to say they did it this year also. Did you know any of this???? I doubt it, so before you question my credibility I think you should realize that you know very little about what happens. You can't even tell me what's going on in your organization.............who your trying to get me to bash but I continue to say I respect and know they do a great job.
To say I don't have my facts straight is wrong on your part. Bergen Beach had a Chicago team last year that each week they flew kids in that were "national players" the parents got mad because the chicago kids were sitting when these kids came in just for one week. It got so bad that nobody wanted to come back except the kid you mentioned earlier. They held a tryout and charged kids to try out (the only team i know that does this) then after the tryout nobody from illinois made the team and they were told there's no chicago team this year just a national team. So was this a scam? Where's that tryout money and what was it for? If they got players in that took time from players that were already on the team last year it's safe to say they did it this year also. Did you know any of this???? I doubt it, so before you question my credibility I think you should realize that you know very little about what happens. You can't even tell me what's going on in your organization.............who your trying to get me to bash but I continue to say I respect and know they do a great job.
So now the discussion is about what Bergen beach did LAST YEAR ?? And here i thought this was about what has happened this year. I could care less what you say about anyone . You have already showed to have not much credibility . Everything i know doesnt neccessarily have to be posted on this message board. You will never catch me making wild accusatory statements on this board without being able to back it up. Bergens business practices dont concern me ..what would make you think i would know anything about it ?? why would i want to know about it ? Originally you were taking them to task for bringing a few extra pitchers to Caba ..now all of a sudden you are asking questions concerning their business practices from last year. Where are you going with all of this ? Do you even know ?
WOW
WOW
quote:Originally posted by sulltiger24:
The fact that you are trying to inject " ethics : into this ---that is a joke .
I believe this is a "wild accusatory statement".
LouisvilleSlugger,
Please do not bring another member's son into the discussion in that way. I understand that you were trying to make a point that the practice can seem more fair or less fair depending on which way it is affecting your own son. But please don't make your point using the player's name.
Thank you,
Julie
Please do not bring another member's son into the discussion in that way. I understand that you were trying to make a point that the practice can seem more fair or less fair depending on which way it is affecting your own son. But please don't make your point using the player's name.
Thank you,
Julie
A lot of "Holier Than Thous" here. Coho wanted to bring up Nail's arguments and present them as valid. Fine and I understand where they are coming from. Facts:
This past weekend, my child was asked to pitch/play OF for a team that is very good. She beat this team earlier this year and they have lost 7 games this year while winning 45. She can rake a little bit and is currently hitting .511 with 152 at bats. Her team will never go to these types of showcases/exposure tournaments. The team asking her to play was going to play in front of a lot of college coaches. Many of these coaches will never see her play at any other time. We are "hicks from the sticks." Now you are all telling me that we are unethical because we want this opportunity for her. You are telling me that you have more scurples than we do. You are suggesting that this team is "cheating" because it picked up my child. You are telling me that while this might be her only chance ever to be seen by some of these colleges, we need to forego this opportunity or we are lesser people despite not breaking one rule of participation in this tournament.
Wow!
- No one broke any rules for the tournament.
- People are arguing this as a ethics argument. While this argument comes from people demonstrating "good hearts" in my opinion, the parents and coaching staff have done nothing wrong. They are ethical within the rules.
- Many if not most teams are also recruiting players for this tournament. As of this moment, I haven't seen anyone dispute this. And so, now, this is an attack on one program because our members know the ones recurited in this instance.
- Players are sitting that have played for this team and since this is a yearly event, I'd suggest AGAIN, that parents and players in this organization know this is going to happen.
- I'm beginning to wonder how much of this argument is "sour grapes?"
This past weekend, my child was asked to pitch/play OF for a team that is very good. She beat this team earlier this year and they have lost 7 games this year while winning 45. She can rake a little bit and is currently hitting .511 with 152 at bats. Her team will never go to these types of showcases/exposure tournaments. The team asking her to play was going to play in front of a lot of college coaches. Many of these coaches will never see her play at any other time. We are "hicks from the sticks." Now you are all telling me that we are unethical because we want this opportunity for her. You are telling me that you have more scurples than we do. You are suggesting that this team is "cheating" because it picked up my child. You are telling me that while this might be her only chance ever to be seen by some of these colleges, we need to forego this opportunity or we are lesser people despite not breaking one rule of participation in this tournament.
Wow!
Coach
Sour grapes and also just trying -unsucessfully --to stir the pot . They can try to put a different spin on it ..but its all pretty simple ---Kids just playing baseball no matter how you look at it. Who cares what team they are playing with or how they got there and this and that and all that other **** . Attempting to question a player and/or his parents loyalty on a message board in my opinion is pretty sad. Life is all about opportunities . These said players created more opportunities for themselves ..more power to them ..the more you get the better .
Sour grapes and also just trying -unsucessfully --to stir the pot . They can try to put a different spin on it ..but its all pretty simple ---Kids just playing baseball no matter how you look at it. Who cares what team they are playing with or how they got there and this and that and all that other **** . Attempting to question a player and/or his parents loyalty on a message board in my opinion is pretty sad. Life is all about opportunities . These said players created more opportunities for themselves ..more power to them ..the more you get the better .
quote:Originally posted by sulltiger24:
In the next breath , Those same recruiters that Woodly mentioned will have no problem offering one of those pitchers they were talking about a very nice scholarship offer.
that is a fact--but once they get them in the rules all change--it is a team concept and not the I concept which i think most of the players adapt to slowly...I do know for a fact that some coaches look at these top notch players--(not just pitchers)more then once before they offer them anything...so this one incident just opened up a few question marks in thier minds about the overall character of the individual...They do a huge background check on the kid as well as the pro scouts and the actions off the field are considered very closely--Recruiting the college player and scouting the pro prospect-- it is a very close circuit out there--They all talk to one another about the kids...and their character..Some great war stories to sit in on and i am privileged enough to have a little insight in the "wars" by doing what i do for a living-
I did not write those comments to start an argument , I just thought it would be interesting to share some of those comments with the people writing their point of view on the subject..It just upsets me as a individual when i see some good 18u year old teams out there wo have several good 17s playing on the team---and people have to forfeit or teams drop from one tourney to go to another --Commitments are something which needs to be instilled in some of our travel players..and coaches.
Sorry, Sulltiger...
You are dead wrong. You assume that folks are just trying to stir the pot?..what does that mean? Just for our entertainment?
I find that comment to be nothing but insulting...like i said before "ad hominem"..arguing against the man.
You make all sorts of accusations like this, try to discredit everyone who speaks their mind here...sorry, that's low end. I think this discussion is encouraging in the fact that there are people who understand the importance of being loyal to a team or a region at this age.
I've had several private conversations over time with Coach B25 regarding certain board matters pertaining to "ethics" and, every time, we have been in agreement.
I am quite sure that he understands where I am coming from and I'm pretty sure he understands the difference between a true ringer and taking a chance to get his daughter seen. His situation (living in the sticks) dictates that he has to do this.
You can employ the low tactic all you want but I understand where these folks are coming from. I also understand what you are trying to say...I think there is plenty of room for agreeing that there are points that are valid on both sides.
There is an "ethic" for everything and where the kids are involved there has be a very strong ethic.
I think that the fly-in is a questionable element...why do you assume that just because some people have a different take on that they are trying to "stir the pot". Step up your game and understand that there other opinions out there besides yours...
Lots of irony in the way you toss around the phrase "stirring the pot" because that's exactly what you do when you whip that card out.
Written after noticing Woodly's post:
thank you woodly, I've always tried to reinforce the idea of commitment...that's kind of the whole point. when these fly in's happen it tends to smash that whole pursuit.
You are dead wrong. You assume that folks are just trying to stir the pot?..what does that mean? Just for our entertainment?
I find that comment to be nothing but insulting...like i said before "ad hominem"..arguing against the man.
You make all sorts of accusations like this, try to discredit everyone who speaks their mind here...sorry, that's low end. I think this discussion is encouraging in the fact that there are people who understand the importance of being loyal to a team or a region at this age.
I've had several private conversations over time with Coach B25 regarding certain board matters pertaining to "ethics" and, every time, we have been in agreement.
I am quite sure that he understands where I am coming from and I'm pretty sure he understands the difference between a true ringer and taking a chance to get his daughter seen. His situation (living in the sticks) dictates that he has to do this.
You can employ the low tactic all you want but I understand where these folks are coming from. I also understand what you are trying to say...I think there is plenty of room for agreeing that there are points that are valid on both sides.
There is an "ethic" for everything and where the kids are involved there has be a very strong ethic.
I think that the fly-in is a questionable element...why do you assume that just because some people have a different take on that they are trying to "stir the pot". Step up your game and understand that there other opinions out there besides yours...
Lots of irony in the way you toss around the phrase "stirring the pot" because that's exactly what you do when you whip that card out.
Written after noticing Woodly's post:
thank you woodly, I've always tried to reinforce the idea of commitment...that's kind of the whole point. when these fly in's happen it tends to smash that whole pursuit.
Coho
take a look at the first post in this thread and then take a good look at where it went . Definitely " stirring the pot " . Pretty accurate description . Im all for anyone speaking their mind --as long as its done responsibly . After a while , its fairly easy to figure out what peoples intentions are . I have more class than to take shots at kids , parents , organizations on a message board . You dont seem to have a problem labeling a kid . It is irresponsible posting to be making all kinds of statements without knowing what the circumstances are and having more information about it. What dont you understand about that ?? You seem to be very good at making blanket statements. Challenging some of the statements that have been made is a far cry from what you say is " discrediting " . I dont have to discredit the persons you mentioned ..they pretty much did it to themselves with their posts. Where is the evidence to support any of the accusations ? How can you lend any credibility or validity to any of the prior statements about these kids / parents / organizations without knowing any of them on a personal level or having any information whatsoever about it ?? And you were describing some of my statements as absurd ??
take a look at the first post in this thread and then take a good look at where it went . Definitely " stirring the pot " . Pretty accurate description . Im all for anyone speaking their mind --as long as its done responsibly . After a while , its fairly easy to figure out what peoples intentions are . I have more class than to take shots at kids , parents , organizations on a message board . You dont seem to have a problem labeling a kid . It is irresponsible posting to be making all kinds of statements without knowing what the circumstances are and having more information about it. What dont you understand about that ?? You seem to be very good at making blanket statements. Challenging some of the statements that have been made is a far cry from what you say is " discrediting " . I dont have to discredit the persons you mentioned ..they pretty much did it to themselves with their posts. Where is the evidence to support any of the accusations ? How can you lend any credibility or validity to any of the prior statements about these kids / parents / organizations without knowing any of them on a personal level or having any information whatsoever about it ?? And you were describing some of my statements as absurd ??
This has been a heated discussion indeed but no need to disparage opposing points of view because neither side is convincing the other. Nails your point was clear the first time you made it. To keep making the same point diminishes the point imho.
To lighten things up here a bit - any of you ever hear the joke - Why do Rock Stars marry super models? Another variant of the joke is about dogs. The answer - because they can.
Why do kids go play for a team like Bergen Beach? Because they can. There is no disloyalty by the kids who do this and Bergen Beach is not harming the kids who have been on the team the whole year. That deal is known going in. Teams like that are known to recruit nationally and if they find or suspect someone is better at any time then the kid who has been playing for them goes to the bench. People who complain about such practices only have themselves to blame for believing that Bergen Beach ought to value loyalty and team principles over winning a title. I am pretty sure most people would consider leaving their current travel teams if a team like Bergen Beach wooed them. The thing is most people don't get that opportunity. To disparage those that do seems petty.
What to do if you value loyalty and teamwork over winning a tournament? Find a travel team that holds these same principles. The teams with the most talented kids don't always win. Sometimes, the teams that have played together for years and developed chemistry have a better chance of winning. Also, if you are a competitive travel team, sign up for tournaments like the CABA HS WS. I can assure you other kids than just the Bergen Beach kids are noticed there. This game is big enough to accommodate everyone. Don't worry about whether or not your kid plays on the most elite team and certainly don't worry about the kids who do. Only concern yourself with helping them find their way on to the field of play and learning the values you hold dear. The rest will take care of itself.
To lighten things up here a bit - any of you ever hear the joke - Why do Rock Stars marry super models? Another variant of the joke is about dogs. The answer - because they can.
Why do kids go play for a team like Bergen Beach? Because they can. There is no disloyalty by the kids who do this and Bergen Beach is not harming the kids who have been on the team the whole year. That deal is known going in. Teams like that are known to recruit nationally and if they find or suspect someone is better at any time then the kid who has been playing for them goes to the bench. People who complain about such practices only have themselves to blame for believing that Bergen Beach ought to value loyalty and team principles over winning a title. I am pretty sure most people would consider leaving their current travel teams if a team like Bergen Beach wooed them. The thing is most people don't get that opportunity. To disparage those that do seems petty.
What to do if you value loyalty and teamwork over winning a tournament? Find a travel team that holds these same principles. The teams with the most talented kids don't always win. Sometimes, the teams that have played together for years and developed chemistry have a better chance of winning. Also, if you are a competitive travel team, sign up for tournaments like the CABA HS WS. I can assure you other kids than just the Bergen Beach kids are noticed there. This game is big enough to accommodate everyone. Don't worry about whether or not your kid plays on the most elite team and certainly don't worry about the kids who do. Only concern yourself with helping them find their way on to the field of play and learning the values you hold dear. The rest will take care of itself.
Coho,
Yes, we've had several discussions and without saying so in the other thread, I decided that my child should not play for that team last weekend. I decided on many of the reasons you all cite. However, I'm kicking myself in the butt now because I know she will never have that chance again. My point of view is that I, the parent, have to do what I think is best for my child. I don't believe we should be judged by others. Especially in lieu of a tournament where everyone else is doing the same.
No one, to this point, has related any conversation with any upset parent from that organization. No one has mentioned whether the tournament directors have a problem with what transpired. Similar threads such as this happen every year and yet, that tournament maintains their same participation rules. No one has mentioned that when that organization does well, it increases the chances of everyone in that organization getting looked at not only in this tournament but next year.
There are two sides to this argument that both have valid reasons for their positions. Obviously there are two sets of "ethics" here. In that case then, I know that I have skeletons in my closet and so, maybe it is a good idea that I don't cast stones. I'm certainly not in the position to attempt character attacks which is exactly what is being done in some posts. (Disloyalty, cheaters, ringers, ...) Others?
Yes, we've had several discussions and without saying so in the other thread, I decided that my child should not play for that team last weekend. I decided on many of the reasons you all cite. However, I'm kicking myself in the butt now because I know she will never have that chance again. My point of view is that I, the parent, have to do what I think is best for my child. I don't believe we should be judged by others. Especially in lieu of a tournament where everyone else is doing the same.
No one, to this point, has related any conversation with any upset parent from that organization. No one has mentioned whether the tournament directors have a problem with what transpired. Similar threads such as this happen every year and yet, that tournament maintains their same participation rules. No one has mentioned that when that organization does well, it increases the chances of everyone in that organization getting looked at not only in this tournament but next year.
There are two sides to this argument that both have valid reasons for their positions. Obviously there are two sets of "ethics" here. In that case then, I know that I have skeletons in my closet and so, maybe it is a good idea that I don't cast stones. I'm certainly not in the position to attempt character attacks which is exactly what is being done in some posts. (Disloyalty, cheaters, ringers, ...) Others?
I think this discussion has been valuable on a number of levels. Inexperienced parents may not be aware that there are teams who do add to their rosters for certain tournaments or just have a roster that is constantly evolving throughout the season, so reading this may give first-timers a good question to ask a coach before they commit to a team. I know when our oldest was first playing traveling, we were VERY surprised to learn that teams were allowed to add players to their roster at each level of the state tournament. As a team was eliminated, their players became available to any other team who wanted to add them. Teams could add up to four players to their roster at each level. You do the math - the state tournament became a veritable All Star tournament as the best players kept getting pulled on to other teams and the "regular" players found a spot on the bench. Tough to swallow at 13 and 14. It was hard for me to imagine any parent, coach or player feeling good about winning under those circumstances. Forewarned is indeed forearmed.
Bergen Beach has been mentioned numerous times, but as many have indicated in this thread, they are far from the only team to utilize this practice. If you are considering a summer team, ask them what their position is on this issue and make your decision according to your own preference. Just remember, when they say they bring players for tournaments and some every day players may not play, they could very well be talking about YOUR son... seems like every parent out there assumes once junior has a spot on the team, they won't be out looking for someone better. You're probably wrong. And Sully, I'm a little curious as to why you say "we weren't talking about position players - that's a much different situation". Why is it different? I understand that in most cases that this is done to add pitching, but why would it be different if a team found a better position player and brought that player in for a tournament? Wouldn't all the same rules or ethical considerations apply?
As our boys have moved through travel ball, we've been on both sides of this situation. We've had teams that have simply run out of pitching due to injuries, vacations, or whatever, and we appreciated being able to add a player or two who was maybe able to give us a chance to advance a little further than we could have with the pitching we had, which gave everyone a chance to play a few more games. No regular team member lost playing time as a result, and in fact a few position players were able to breathe a sigh of relief that they wouldn't be called upon to pitch when we ran dry.
But we've also been on a 18-U team where a "top shelf" pitcher was dropped on our heads with no notice - coach didn't need or want him, but was told by the director of the organization to use him in a particular game. Said pitcher came skidding into the parking lot 2 minutes before game time, another player had to literally give him the shirt off his back, he pitched to a few batters, decided his arm just wasn't "ready" and got back in his car and went home. The whole team just stood there staring at the dust cloud he left behind. Apparently the dad had heard a particular college was to be in attendance and prevailed upon the director to let his kid pitch in front of this guy. Dad was obviously way more interested in son's future than junior was! Needless to say he did not make a great impression on anyone.
One more question I would want answered as a parent of a regular player - if we're "flying in" big name pitchers, who's paying for that? Obviously it's the team, which means me as a parent - if that's something that you don't mind doing, then great. If that rubs you the wrong way, I guess you'd need to find another team.
I think this is a really good topic for discussion and I hope it can stay civil and open. The information parents can glean from this can really be helpful when they dunk that first toe into the swirling pool of traveling baseball!
Bergen Beach has been mentioned numerous times, but as many have indicated in this thread, they are far from the only team to utilize this practice. If you are considering a summer team, ask them what their position is on this issue and make your decision according to your own preference. Just remember, when they say they bring players for tournaments and some every day players may not play, they could very well be talking about YOUR son... seems like every parent out there assumes once junior has a spot on the team, they won't be out looking for someone better. You're probably wrong. And Sully, I'm a little curious as to why you say "we weren't talking about position players - that's a much different situation". Why is it different? I understand that in most cases that this is done to add pitching, but why would it be different if a team found a better position player and brought that player in for a tournament? Wouldn't all the same rules or ethical considerations apply?
As our boys have moved through travel ball, we've been on both sides of this situation. We've had teams that have simply run out of pitching due to injuries, vacations, or whatever, and we appreciated being able to add a player or two who was maybe able to give us a chance to advance a little further than we could have with the pitching we had, which gave everyone a chance to play a few more games. No regular team member lost playing time as a result, and in fact a few position players were able to breathe a sigh of relief that they wouldn't be called upon to pitch when we ran dry.
But we've also been on a 18-U team where a "top shelf" pitcher was dropped on our heads with no notice - coach didn't need or want him, but was told by the director of the organization to use him in a particular game. Said pitcher came skidding into the parking lot 2 minutes before game time, another player had to literally give him the shirt off his back, he pitched to a few batters, decided his arm just wasn't "ready" and got back in his car and went home. The whole team just stood there staring at the dust cloud he left behind. Apparently the dad had heard a particular college was to be in attendance and prevailed upon the director to let his kid pitch in front of this guy. Dad was obviously way more interested in son's future than junior was! Needless to say he did not make a great impression on anyone.
One more question I would want answered as a parent of a regular player - if we're "flying in" big name pitchers, who's paying for that? Obviously it's the team, which means me as a parent - if that's something that you don't mind doing, then great. If that rubs you the wrong way, I guess you'd need to find another team.
I think this is a really good topic for discussion and I hope it can stay civil and open. The information parents can glean from this can really be helpful when they dunk that first toe into the swirling pool of traveling baseball!
quote:Originally posted by Nails:
for the 100th time, i don't have an agenda. What agenda could i possibly have, i am just stating my opinions. Kids don't switch teams in college, they don't get flown in to play with a different team, they are taught to work hard. I just think it's giving the kids the wrong message early. That's my agenda.
To say I don't have my facts straight is wrong on your part. Bergen Beach had a Chicago team last year that each week they flew kids in that were "national players" the parents got mad because the chicago kids were sitting when these kids came in just for one week. It got so bad that nobody wanted to come back except the kid you mentioned earlier.
It's become obvvious what your agenda is... to bash Bergen. From your intentional omission of one of the four kids originally cited and constant diatribes about ethics, ethics, ethics...For the record, your facts are not right. My son was on the Il Bergen team last year. Every player and parents knew ahead of time what the was going to occur. The only person who had some consternation with new kids coming on for each tournament was the coach, and he never let any players not get reasonable time on the field. In fact the new players at times, were welcome additions because our kids needed rest. Additionally, all the boys were genuinely excited to take the field with these kids because of the reputation they brought. For my son, there was an added incentive to play well defensively behind these new guys because of the reputations.
Because of our experience with Bergen and also because my son has been on the other side of the argument as well; being the arm brought in is why this post was started to begin with. Joining a team mid stream (whatever the reason) is difficult emotionally for all because of the mixed bag of feelings on the team. For these kids to overcome this alone and then to be deemed ethically challenged by 3d (nails)because of their desire to play at an even higher level makes their acomplishments even more impressive.
So, again I say...NICE JOB BOYS! And don't let the minority take the shine off the ring you now wear.
This has been an interesting thread. Nails has made some strong statements regarding the legality of flying in players. Did a little checking, the organization in question has non-profit status 304B or something, if a parent can demonstrate a need, the organization can offer assistance. Now of course this is vague and probably abused to no end by numerous organizations. It is not then considered a gift, rather need based assistance.
It would also be pretty difficult to make a charge stick. it appears they have the bases covered.
I also agree with the sour grapes argument, give it a rest and move on. The same teams will be doing the same thing 20 years from now. The same parents, who's kids don't get asked will moan and the kids that do get invited will probably sign on the dotted line. Just ain't gonna change.
It would also be pretty difficult to make a charge stick. it appears they have the bases covered.
I also agree with the sour grapes argument, give it a rest and move on. The same teams will be doing the same thing 20 years from now. The same parents, who's kids don't get asked will moan and the kids that do get invited will probably sign on the dotted line. Just ain't gonna change.
Nails and Coho
Please make special note to yourselves to read traveldads above post. Someone that has the capability to comment on Bergen Beach because has has an actual CONNECTION to the organization ..not just someone who is going to rely on guesswork to try to make a case. Innuendos and the like have no place here when talking about kids and/or their parents.
For the life of me ..i have no idea how anyone that has no connection to a team or their players can make comments and statements such as the ones we have read on this thread.
Please make special note to yourselves to read traveldads above post. Someone that has the capability to comment on Bergen Beach because has has an actual CONNECTION to the organization ..not just someone who is going to rely on guesswork to try to make a case. Innuendos and the like have no place here when talking about kids and/or their parents.
For the life of me ..i have no idea how anyone that has no connection to a team or their players can make comments and statements such as the ones we have read on this thread.
Sulli,
Nice talking to you last weekend. Funny how an innocous comment leads to such animosity isn't it?
When we gonna meet at our favorite joint for a burger and "soda"?
Nice talking to you last weekend. Funny how an innocous comment leads to such animosity isn't it?
When we gonna meet at our favorite joint for a burger and "soda"?
So flying in a player is borderline illegal and somewhat bending the rules?
If you have 3 new players each week or a kid plays for you for 1 weekend is that kid part of that organization or is there really any team concept to that team?
I do know alot of the kids that were on Bergen last year and I do know that they weren't explained the situation and happy with what happened, just becuase you were doesn't mean they were. You guys think I don't know or have basis for my arguements which is funny to me because based on things you say you don't have a clue what's going on.
I don't really care about Bergen, they aren't in any tournaments in Illinois or have any affect on anything over here, I just find it funny when a team that recreuts players from all over the country starts bragging about how they beat pony, colt, regional teams. I think my posts allow parents and players to look deeper into travel programs, ask the questions that we posed, and make sure it's a good fit. Alot of these places are taking credit for things that are alot different than they seem.
Why didn't Bergen have a Chicago team, why was the coach of the team being overrode by the GM in New York? Why don't you answer a question one time since your all in the know..............it's avoid avoid and pass blame and make something else up that I say so that you don't have to answer anything and I think intelligent people see through it. Sorry that I brought up some things but that's what this is all about, people having opinions.
If you have 3 new players each week or a kid plays for you for 1 weekend is that kid part of that organization or is there really any team concept to that team?
I do know alot of the kids that were on Bergen last year and I do know that they weren't explained the situation and happy with what happened, just becuase you were doesn't mean they were. You guys think I don't know or have basis for my arguements which is funny to me because based on things you say you don't have a clue what's going on.
I don't really care about Bergen, they aren't in any tournaments in Illinois or have any affect on anything over here, I just find it funny when a team that recreuts players from all over the country starts bragging about how they beat pony, colt, regional teams. I think my posts allow parents and players to look deeper into travel programs, ask the questions that we posed, and make sure it's a good fit. Alot of these places are taking credit for things that are alot different than they seem.
Why didn't Bergen have a Chicago team, why was the coach of the team being overrode by the GM in New York? Why don't you answer a question one time since your all in the know..............it's avoid avoid and pass blame and make something else up that I say so that you don't have to answer anything and I think intelligent people see through it. Sorry that I brought up some things but that's what this is all about, people having opinions.
coachB25,
Who can blame you for wanting to get your daughter some looks. If these teams were bringing kids over to help he KIDS out and get these kids looks that were being overlooked, i'd applaud them. But don't get it twisted, it's not about that, it's about them bringing these kids over to help THEM WIN. Plain and simple and add it to their website. So you guys can pretend they are doing it to get these kids looks but we all know that's not the case. As I said before, these kids have gotten a ton of looks already and are on the map, if they werent that team wouldn't have a clue who they are, they don't have scouts lurking in Illinois finding guys. If they brought a kid nobody seen or that was good and not invited to Stevenson like the kid you all mentioned on another thread that's not getting looks i'd applaud them. But they have no clue who that kid is because they are just going off lists of things like Stevenson. I would bet they haven't even seen those 4 kids play until they stepped on the field for them.
Who can blame you for wanting to get your daughter some looks. If these teams were bringing kids over to help he KIDS out and get these kids looks that were being overlooked, i'd applaud them. But don't get it twisted, it's not about that, it's about them bringing these kids over to help THEM WIN. Plain and simple and add it to their website. So you guys can pretend they are doing it to get these kids looks but we all know that's not the case. As I said before, these kids have gotten a ton of looks already and are on the map, if they werent that team wouldn't have a clue who they are, they don't have scouts lurking in Illinois finding guys. If they brought a kid nobody seen or that was good and not invited to Stevenson like the kid you all mentioned on another thread that's not getting looks i'd applaud them. But they have no clue who that kid is because they are just going off lists of things like Stevenson. I would bet they haven't even seen those 4 kids play until they stepped on the field for them.
Another mind blowing statement --" I dont really care about Bergen " --- Obviously you do....for some reason . What makes you think you are going to get the answers you seek on a message board ? Why not just go to the source ?
You must know by now that we have signed confidentiality agreements and cannot give you what you are looking for.
You must know by now that we have signed confidentiality agreements and cannot give you what you are looking for.
more proof that you have no clue what your talking about. And do deflect the real answers you pretend i have an agenda against certain travel teams. I simply stated I didn't like things many of them do. Your a piece of work though, you have more opinions than anyone but can't come up with any facts or information about anything. Keep deflecting things and answering questions with a question.
You even questioned and made excuses for why you didn't advance in a tourney then got called out and backed down on what you said. Now that was funny, stick to what you said and stop making excuses for everything.
You even questioned and made excuses for why you didn't advance in a tourney then got called out and backed down on what you said. Now that was funny, stick to what you said and stop making excuses for everything.
Nails and sulltiger - please take this discussion offline. This has been a useful thread as mythreesons posted but the personal stuff is getting old. Let it go.
your right, i made my points. It's getting annoying. I do know that Martin, Gardeck, Crowley all have a bright future and will get a ton of looks.
Speaking of the CABA ..... been watching a good one in the 15U tournament on the Schaumburge Seminoles Parker Asmann. If anyone has his contact phone number or email address please PM me. Would like to discuss opportunities for fall and next year.
Nails
Know this-- Whatever your opinions are against any of these travel teams ..whatever accusations you make against any of them --have absolutely no bearing on me whatsoever. I just stand up and speak out for what is right. I do not need to provide facts or info as i am not the one here making these accusations. The burden of proof has been on you and you have failed --miserably . You certainly are persistent with your rants , but unfortunately for you they contain mostly bark and no bite.
Know this-- Whatever your opinions are against any of these travel teams ..whatever accusations you make against any of them --have absolutely no bearing on me whatsoever. I just stand up and speak out for what is right. I do not need to provide facts or info as i am not the one here making these accusations. The burden of proof has been on you and you have failed --miserably . You certainly are persistent with your rants , but unfortunately for you they contain mostly bark and no bite.
Sulli, I am sure you meant I speak for what I think is right.