CAL SCHOOLS STILL CHARGING FEES AFTER ACLU LAWSUIT SETTLED

There are many schools still I know in So Cal that are charging fees to play baseball. Many schools are collecting fees set up by coaches as they are paying themselves. In 1984 the State Supreme Court ruled that no fees can be charged for students for school related activities.

This past Fall in September the ACLU filed a lawsuit for the illegal practices of schools charging fees that ranged from lab classes, transportation, cheerleading and after school sports activities. The lawsuit was settled in December. The lawsuit made it where that no fees can be charged to students and that they could not charge for spirit packs. Also, that how some schools were doing their fundraising tactics were considered illegal.

I know that there are several schools that are still charging fees for baseball. I am curious to know what schools do you know out there that are charging fees and what amounts are they charging.

Schools will continue to charge fees for baseball but make them "suggested" and not mandatory. In our case the fees are around $200 for freshmen and then it drops down to $50 for upper classmen. Our fees are only for the purchase of uniforms. The baseball booster club funds everything else other than the mowing of the grass and water, which the district pays for and I believe the head coaches stipend. We also pay a separate transportation fee of $80 for bus transportation to league games only. These all seem reasonable and necessary to run the program, regardless of what the idiots at the ACLU think.

Obviously you cannot run a program on these fees only, we have baseballs, bats, field maintenance, and lots of other infrastructure costs that the school district cannot afford. To solve this we have a booster club that is organized as a 501(c3) organization that generates the rest of the operating budget and for the past 4 years have put in substantial improvements to our facility and we have voted to pay the other coaches a small stipend. We have purchased field maintenance equipment, rebuilt both the Varsity and JV fields, put in a clubhouse and numerous other improvements too long to list here for the betterment of HS baseball. We also have had a long-standing tradition of paying the HS fees for any player who cannot afford the small fees that the district charges. In our case it all works just fine and many kids get to play HS baseball with safe fields and equipment.

I think the ACLU folks frankly barking up the wrong tree. In this day and age of reduced education budgets the only way to pay for HS sports are from the families of the participants so nominal fees seem appropriate, and legal and properly organized booster clubs fund the rest. Make the fees “suggested” and most parents will happily pay the fees for their kids to participate in their respective HS sports. If a family can’t afford the fees then they should not be made to pay them, but I find it hard to believe that a kid could not go out and raise a few hundred $$ so he could play a sport if he really wanted to. I see nothing wrong with this and I am not really sure of the purpose of your post, but I think this addresses your question.

I have no problem with fees as long as the families who can't afford them don't have to pay. The simple reality is that the schools can't afford to pay for the programs and we want the programs to continue. Back before this decision we paid a fair amount for the spirit packs, but the amount was kept to less than the actual costs through other fundraising. The coaches, some of whom I liked, some of whom I didn't, all more than earned whatever small stipend they got especially the ones running the JV and freshman programs.

The only place I disagree with BOF a bit is for the kids to have to go out and raise the money. If a kid is coming from a situation where money is extremely tight, especially in a situation where money is extremely tight in that community it is not going to be realistic for a whole team to fundraise and cover expenses.

I agree that the ACLU is barking up the wrong tree. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing the wealthier districts asked to contribute to the programs in the poorer districts as that would help to ensure the best possible competition now and in the future.

The post was to address in which there are quite a few more schools charging fees and doing more than you think. Palm Desert HS as an example had over $100,000 in their booster club. That money ended up not being accounted for. Turns out the coaches were using the monies in the account for personal use.

I talked with Candance Garvey from Palm Desert and she is the one that has brought to the attention of the school in which the monies was going into the Cheerleading and she kept asking questions of where the money was going. Nobody would give her any true questions.

She was upset with the fact that they had made everything mandatory to pay the fees. She told me of a mother that sold her car so that her daughter was be able to participate in their program. She couldn't pay it and did what they could to get it done as she didn't have the money so she sold her car. Until she sold her car, her daughter was treated poorly and they were being harassed as if the teachers were creditors to pay the money. They kept at it, until she paid.

There are so many examples like this and if they don't pay they get ridiculed about it. That is why there is 2 lawsuits because of this with 2 South Orange County students.

I think this is the major problem where there are many people that are asked to either fundraise the money or pay it. The monies are out of control with this. The fees are now up in the $1,500 to $3,000 for sports depending on the schools.

Do you both feel this is right? Each student has a right to be able to participate in a sport and not be rediculed if they can't afford it. There are alot more than you think.

Westlake High School is another example. Each player is to pay $400 for the Spring, $400 for the Summer and $400 to the Fall. This is required by the coach. Each payment that is paid is distributed. $300 into a separate account that the coaches use it for their own person use and another $100 into the booster account. They have an average of 75 players each year pay this fee.

Do you think that is ok to do this?

Riverside Poly HS last year required each player to either pay $1,700 or fundraise it. There are more of this from many schools just with baseball.

Here is another example of the schools not abiding to the decision of the State Sumpreme Court.

Temecula Valley was told that they can not charge fees for traveling to games. What decided to do is to still charge the students to pay. But don't put it into print anywhere so that they won't have a paper trail. The are violating a court order as they were told by the courts to stop doing and they continue to do it.

So you are saying that it is ok to violate a court order and turn your head? I don't think that is the way it should happen. There are many people in this day and time who cannot afford to pay to play sports in high school as the fees are out of control in which the coaches are asking of parents and players.

I agree with you that kids should not have to pay if their families cannot afford the fees and they should be reasonable. I would venture to say that the situations you are referring to are in the minority as there are around 2,000 of schools in California so there will always be a few problems. It is up to the parents in the school district to bring these situations to the attention of the school administration and deal with the issue locally. Booster Clubs have issues, which is why it is important to have sound bylaws, good oversight and transparency in them. Again this is the responsibility of the local parents in these programs. I know that one of the clubs at my son’s school had some issues and it was dealt with by the school administration.

As far as transportation fees, I have no problem paying $80 for a bus fee for my son to travel to a game regardless what the Supreme Court says, it is an extra curricular event and he is using the bus so it seems reasonable to pay the fee. The options would be 1) have parents drive 2) have kids drive 3) not have any games, so the transportation fee is a reasonable alternative IMO.

As far as the other situations we have brought up the local parents should deal with them.

Valencia HS Baseball
Color Pack - $720.00 plus $50.00 per month through December
*2 Hats
*2 Practice Shirts
*Easton Game Dri Fit Shirt
*Sweats
*Mizuno Spikes
*Hooded Sweat Shirt
*Summer/Fall Jersey
http://www.valenciavikings.com/baseball/color_pkg.htm

Generally speaking I think the families at Westlake can afford it. Much more of a mix at Valencia and there are most likely going to be families that can't afford that price.

The fees are a little on the high side, but not too bad considering you are getting $100 cleats, socks and game jersey's, sweats, 2 hats, etc. You are also getting Summer Fall jerseys in addition. If you look at the money we spend on other fundraising events it is in this ball park.

ABD, thanks for the information. Valencia is over the top, to much as far as I am concerned. We barely get a hat at son's HS program.

Lefty..

For us, varsity packs are about $75, JV a bit less. The players pay about $100 transportation fee. Packs include the basics...
*1 hat
*1 micro tee (worn under jerseys/vests)
*1 practice tee
*1 pullover for cold weather
*1 pr socks
*1 belt

Players buy thier own cleats and any extra's based on what they can afford. We've used the same uni's for several years. Our HC makes a very small stipend and assistants are unpaid volunteers. I thought this was on the low side but close to the norm with today's budget and economic woes. Most of our players are multi-sport, so they get hit with this x2 or x3. With the legal issue, we are told to emphasize that these fees are not mandatory. Along with this, many of our fundraising efforts were thwarted for fear that there would be other legal ramifications. This will start to make things very difficult for our school and others.
Some of the fees quoted on this thread are scary and, IMO, way over the top. But, I agree with BOF and CADad in that the only way that HS sports will continue will be with nominal fees from participants' families. I'm afraid these legal actions will seriously threaten the existence of HS sports and other extra-curricular activities.

ABD, what do you think the right direction is?

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
ABD, what do you think the right direction is?

Have the HS play for free so the travel and scout teams can charge exorbitant fees……

BTW I do agree that Valencia is a bit over the top. Again it shoud be a local issue. Valencia is a very successful program so there must be some good things going on there.

The $1,200 was not for uniforms, it was only for playing on the baseball team.

They paid an additional $400 for uniforms, $250 for their trip for Arizona and $120 for transportation fee.

The $67,500 for the coaches where they pay themselves and then the $22,500 in the Booster Club money. Where does that go?

The money that Westlake is paying shouldn't be acceptable at all even if parents can pay for it.

ABD,
I understand that you are addressing the legal aspects. BOF and I are addressing what is right. Those may be two different things in this case.

I think it may be stupid to ignore a court order but it may also be the right thing to do. As long as nobody is denied the right to play based on their income and everyone gets the same gear regardless of their income then I don't think there's a problem.

Let's look at the Valencia spirit pack

2 hats - they only need one.
2 practice shirts - they don't need any.
Easton shirt - they don't need any.
Sweats - they don't need them
Summer/Fall Jersey - they don't need them
spikes - each family can buy their own and it shouldn't be a mandatory part of the spirit pack.

The only thing they are purchasing that comes under the ruling is one cap unless of course both caps are extras. Is the price exorbitant? You bet it is. They aren't charging for a uniform (summer/fall don't count) or equipment so the key is that any player who's family can't afford the spirit pack gets it anyways. As long as that happens the rule and the spirit of the law have been followed.

I don't know the situation in Valencia but have you considered that part of the high price may be that they have to cover the families who can't afford the spirit packs? That added to the price of our spirit packs back in the day. We simply took the costs, determined how many families could pay, reduced the costs by any budget surplus and then split the costs between the families who could pay.

CADad,

I only wanted to bring to the attention of what is happening and not to say that they shouldn't charge fees. It is something that seems that it is necessary to do in order to continue the sport in schools.

This is going into the direction where high school sports may no longer be around as this is being discussed in many schools to drop it. We must look at how things are happening in our state where if the schools are unable to charge fees, then there will be no other choice to drop sports.

I know that there are several lawsuits that schools are being sued because of schools ignoring the law. Palm Desert HS principal was fired because of their booster club dealings. I know that there will be several parents who will be suing the school because it is alledged that coaches involved were using the money that was being raised and monies paid by parents for their own personal use.

There are always bad apples when it comes to money. There are also people who simply don't know the rules and mess up.

I wonder if a fair portion of that money that Palm Desert allegedly mis-spent was donated by Mark Cresse? He's a good guy and pretty active with travel teams out that way.

I agree the ACLU lawsuit could have a negative effect on HS sports. The ACLU sometimes does things that hurt everyone instead of helping the disadvantaged.

Here is the link to Valencia HS as what they are charging for uniforms outside of their Color pack. There are other fees they are paying but not online.

http://www.valenciavikings.com/baseball/color_pkg.htm

WESTLAKE HIGH SCHOOL
I just talked to a parent that they had to pay for 2 jerseys and after the season started were told that they will not be using them this year.

But, they are being told that they have to pay for a new type of uniform for next year as they are going to pinstripes.

They're in trouble as the pants are part of the uniform and the helmet is equipment. My guess is that they don't know the rules.

My son's team has a few Westlake alums and other ex-Westlake parents whose kids are playing pro ball, etc. show up at the games. Let's just say that the coaching situation at Westlake tends to be a topic of conversation every time.

CADad,

Here is the link of the article for the Cheerleading situation where the lawsuit will be about. It all started with this and now is spilling into the other sports.


Booster fundraising called 'sickening mess'

http://www.mydesert.com/articl...alled-sickening-mess

Mike,

I understand the need to control some of the costs in HS sports. Some coaches do go overboard. I think just about every school in California(or anywhere in the country) in every sport would be in violation of the law. I think the spirit of the law and letter or the law are to be considered. Now if a parent choses to sell a car for her daughter to be a cheerleader than I think she made a bad choice. Just out of curiosity why is this all being posted?

We all know that extra-curriculars took a hit decades ago with prop 13. That hasn't changed. The schools are getting by and for the most part providing a great education for our children. I doubt that many high school coaches are in it for the money and to ask users of this board to scrutinize individual programs seems highly suspect.
Human nature remains the same and with the AClU situation the following will be the scenario.
Responsible parents with the means to make the much needed donations to their schools baseball programs will do so.
Responsible parents who do not have the means to donate will contribute with their time or talents to help the program run.
Irresponsible parents will take advantage and pay nothing while being the first to sound off and complain about the programs, coaches, and money spent.
Predators seeking financial or competitive gain from a high school's programs demise will continue to predate.

Mike/SGV,

I just wanted to put the information out that this past January, Ricardo Lara who is the Assemblymember for the 50th District out of Bell Gardens has introduced bill AB 165.

http://asmdc.org/members/a50/n...ree-public-education

The fees that public schools have charged is a situation that was a fix it for the public schools of California to fill the needs of different areas of where the public schools were falling short with the budget problems.

To me this is a situation that I don't see any other choice for the schools to charge the fees necessary to keep the programs that are not being funded the right way. We are in this situation due to the Jarvis-Gann iniative back in the late 70's which was called Prop 13. When that bill was passed, many of the Junior High sports programs were dropped.

We are now in a situation that people need to be aware of what is actually happening with the schools where many of the parents are totally unaware of what exactly is happening. They only know that the fees that they have been charged to play baseball have steadily increased. I have checked with many of the players that play in the ABD program that play baseball for their high schools.

There are a few schools that are charging a nominal fee of $150 to $200 to play baseball. But the majority of the players are paying fees anywhere from $600 to $2,500 to play baseball. The ACLU lawsuit came out not because of baseball, but for other fees that schools were being charged. Lab classes, testing, things that were school related to actual education. Through their checking they found a epedimic problem with athletics and cheerleading charging quite a bit of money. Since the lawsuit, many things are coming out that has become a problem with not only the ACLU, but for many students through out the state of California.

One issue that is a problem is that fees are being charged for minimal amount of gear, but the fees have been high. Lawmakers are wanting to know where the money has been going. In some cases, they are finding it not going to the school baseball program.

High school sports is coming to a situation that because they are not going to be able to charge fees, the sports programs of high schools is in trouble.

I think that when the fees were minimal to charge for sports, nobody really said anything. But now it has escalated to where the fees in many cases is really out of line.

Since this posting started I have learned many schools of what they have charged to play baseball. In many cases the parents were not happy to pay those fees as they felt that they shouldn't be paying fees that they are being charged. One example was Murrieta Valley HS Baseball increased they fees where it more than doubled from the past to $650 just for the Spring. The is close to $50,000 of fees for the Spring and that doesn't include the fund raising that was done also.

eatersbaseball,

I know there are some schools are not charging fees like you said, but there are many schools that are charging fees to make money. A little more than you think, that is why this has become an issue with respect to baseball.

I know of a high school coach that is angry that many of the schools that are charging fees. He wants the schools that are charging fees to get in trouble because it would create a level playing field for his school. He said that he can't charge fees like many of the schools are charging because his players are poor.

PA Dino,

It is hard to believe isn't it? Not kidding on the fees. Last year Riverside Poly charged players to play in the Spring $1,700 each. That is easily over $100,000 put in the baseball program for the Spring ONLY.

CADad,

Westlake has some issues for sure. I know that the players had to do some bear crawls on a day when their game was canceled due to rain. I remember when Westlake HS was a top 25 Nationally ranked team.

Senseless politic getting in the way of student growth. Cutbacks so deep in the school system as it is...where is the money to come to support these programs? We can't charge, but the schools can't afford to support extra circular activities... So who wins? Those supporting this bill will charge your child to play under the guise of a scout team.. they will gladly charge your child to play...

If I read this bill correctly it is for "AB 165 establishes a comprehensive monitoring and enforcement system to ensure school districts do not unlawfully charge students fees for participation in educational activities."

Baseball has nothing to do with educational activities. This is addressing something completely different than funding a sports program. I agree that some programs overcharge, but this is a local issue and the local parents should be dealing with it. If they are willing to pay and put up with it, then shame on them. I can tell you that I would not stand by and pay $1,700 a year for HS baseball team. That said I am one who helps raise around $20K per year for our program so the kids have a safe and respectable place to play. Some of this comes from the parents and some from the community but it is 100% volunteer. We also have a policy that any kid can play and the booster club will fund them if they can not afford our nominal fees.

I would argue that there is a bigger problem of private vs. public in the balance of HS sports. I think in the state basketball playoffs all but one was a private school. You look at programs like Mater Dei and they are successful because of the ability to recruit across boundaries, and a lot of money to fund the program. It is very clear in football where wealthy private schools dominate the sport.

A legislative approach in Sacramento is not going to fix thi, and again I think this is a local issue.

Frankly I get a sense that you are complaining because some of this money will not be available to the ABD group, which while successful is A LOT more expensive than some of the other successful So Cal programs. I could effectively argue that poor kids who have the ability to play college ball don’t get looks at the HS level anymore BECAUSE of expensive programs like ABD who siphon talent and $$ away from the high schools. Something to think about.

C'mon now BOF, you know that Oaks Christian doesn't recruit. It just so happens that football players and their families hear about the school and decide to go there for the academics.

BOF, the equivalent program, their spring league isn't all that expensive if I remember correctly and players don't have to be on one of the ABD teams to participate so there are options. There were very few cases where it looked like talented players were siphoned off from HS programs. Most of the kids either had problems with their HS programs or in one or two cases were at a small HS that didn't offer much in the way of competition. The spring league is an alternative for players who don't have a good option relative to HS ball and not a replacement for HS ball.

I agree with you CADad about the spring league and I have come out in favor of it because it offers alternatives to HS players. I was just putting in a little dig on the high cost travel ball programs. That said I am a free marketeer and charge what the market will bear.

BOF,

When you say that we are expensive to play in our program. Do you know how much it cost to be part of our program?

The bill that covers all aspects of paying to the schools. Athletics is considered part of the educational system.


MORE ON: pay to play
http://californiawatch.org/cat...ree-tagging/pay-play


Schools under fire from ACLU for 'pay-to-play' athletic fees
http://californiawatch.org/dai...y-athletic-fees-3740


More schools accused of pay-to-play catch ACLU's gaze
The American Civil Liberties Union is accusing three more Southern California school districts of illegally charging students to participate in cheerleading, athletics, and AP calculus classes.
http://californiawatch.org/dai...atch-aclus-gaze-4189

Actually yes, and I don't think a legislative broad brush approach works here. Again if local schools are charging unreasonable fees then the local parents should deal with it.

Facts:

1. Schools do not have enough money to fund sports programs.
2. The money has to come from the parents and/or sponsors.
3. Most schools deal with it locally
4. There are some abusive programs, which are in a minority.

Let the local parents deal with it the problems.

Additional legislation is going to achieve what?
(give attorneys more $$)

BOF,

You are correct that high schools don't have the money to fund a sports program. Their only avenue is that they have to raise money through fundraising and donations. That is possible, the only problem is that what the schools are doing to solicit donations is that they are making stipulations that it is required by setting an amount and what is required in the fundraising part.

When you mention that the schools are a minority on the abusive side. From what I can tell is that it is not quite that way. I have checked with many of the players in our program that play high school baseball. I have only heard from a few of fees being less than $300.00.

I would have to see concrete evidence that is the majority. There is about 1000 plus high schools in California and a little over 1.2 million students participating in HS athletics and this is not counting cheerleading. I think quite a bit of more research needs to done on this matter before an conclusions are made. I am still curious this whole topic was brought to light here. This was also posted on baseballresource.com

Mike,

If you read what the ACLU findings were then you would understand. They had stated it is a epidemic program that is happening.

I have been following this for quite a while reading up on everything that is going on with it. If you look at what is being talked about, the school districts have put on their agenda to drop athletics because of not being able to fund sports. This is a serious problem that is happening with our economy and what is happening with the education system.

The public school education is in trouble and that is a fact. More and more students are going to charter schools in California.

CALIFORNIANS ATTENDING CHARTER SCHOOLS
*2005-2006 - 199,916
*2006-2007 - 222,942
*2007-2008 - 251,722
*2008-2009 - 285,617
*2009-2010 - 323,859
*2010-2011 - ???

This is hurting the public schools when it comes to funding.

In California the school district will receive $10,264 per student. There are 1,264 public high schools in Calfornia with 1.8 million students. Over 50% of those students are considered to be low income in California, that is almost at million high school students in California. What is happening is the low income students are leaving public schools and attending the charter schools which is hurting the public schools.

When a student goes to a charter school, the state will fund the school $7,034 per student. That is almost 2.3 Billion dollars going to the charter schools. The public schools are not losing 2.3 Billion, they are losing 3.3 Billion as their is a differnce in which the public schools are not receiving compared to the charter schools.

I only ask this question, where is the other billion dollars going? So if you look at the numbers the public school system is losing and it continues to grow each year.

I did a study within the players in our ABD program where I had asked each family who is in the program what are their thoughts of charter schools so that I would have information as to what their thinking is. What I had found was a surprise as we have more than 600 plus kids in our program where more than 75% of them had thought of attending a charter school over public schools. That was interesting to see in which the growth of the charter schools in California is continuing each year.

With the way the numbers are for last year, I would bet the number of students for 2010-2011 will be around 35,000 to 40,000 more students next year. With this growth continually growing. Sports will not be the issue with public schools, it will be will public schools be around.

Mike,

Where are you going with this?

You are all over the place, first coaches over charging for their baseball programs, then on to Charter Schools. Charter schools got started because parents got sick and tired with the poor education their kids were getting so they got involved and changed some things. What does this have to do with the ACLU and baseball funding? We could have all kinds of discussions regarding what is wrong with schools, but this should be done on WWWPS.com (WhatisWrongWithPublicSchools.com)

I'm done with this thread....

BOF,

Mike Viera brought up how many schools there are in California and how many students. You are thinking that I am against high school sports. I am not, I am only pointing out the problem of why there is no funding for schools. If you look it that aspect then you would understand.

So to make a comment that I am all over the place. That says that you are not understanding the reason why there is no funding for sports. You have to understand the problem of why there is no money and then look for a solution.

The voters voted for money to be cut from athletics. By this, it is affecting athletics which is a problem. There is a crisis happening when it comes to schools and their budgets and it is affecting athletics. What is happening it is only a matter time when athletics will be cut from the public school system.

You should recognize this issue, but you don't understand there is a problem and think that the parents should just pay. The problem is that the laws of our state don't allow it and it will not happen. One thing that people need to understand that more than 50% of the student population is considered low income.

This is a problem, so maybe you and other people like you should open your eyes and understand there is a problem. Sports is a very important to the upbringing of young people.

You think that I am against high school sports and only interested in making money myself. But people like you don't know me. You know nothing about me and what I am about or have done through the years. I have donated hundreds of hours over the years with baseball and donating money and equipment to the poor. I ask of you do you do this?

I care about the sport and the state that it is in. Baseball is a game that I love and care about and has been a big part of my life. I have been fortunate enough to work in it and have been involved in many aspects of the game.

You then make a comment that you think that the government shouldn't take legislative broad approach to solve the problem. Problem is that the voters voted the money to be taken from athletics. Then you and Mike Viera make a comment that there is a minority amount of schools that are charging high fees to play sports. Really? Are you serious? The schools don't have money and they are only a few charging? Are you really both that naive?

Take a closer to this as it is a serious problem in the public school system. Teachers are being let go each year because of funding. Teachers need to be careful of what they are doing as there has been some that have lost their jobs because of the fees that are being charged. If they continue to do this, then more will be losing their jobs.

School Districts are now starting to get sued which is happening. And when it happens, they will lose. The first of many lawsuits have been settled with the 3 in the Clovis School District where $250,000 was awarded to the families. There are two more suits in South Orange County and some in San Diego. So before you make an opinion of something, you should read up on what is happening.

The purpose of bring up the charter schools is a situation that is evolving and you should look close at this. President Obama passed legislation that would allow the public schools to change over to a charter school in which there are school districts from across the country that are hurting financially and that if a school wants to change over then there is a process that will allow it to happen. But I am sure that you didn't know that as well.

What is going to happen is that athletics will be cut out of the public schools and that will happen. There is no choice in the matter with how the laws are set up. This will only change if legistlation changes with the budget that Governor Brown wants to pass to give more money to the public school system. But the fear is that it won't pass and if it doesn't pass, then you will start seeing athletics cut out of the budget. The answer won't be a pay for play situation as the laws won't allow it from happening.

Read up on this and it may enlighten you on what is happening with the public school system in California.

BOF,

One more thing about charter schools and the money that is being lost for public education. There is 3 Billion a year being lost because of this. There are 1,039 school districts in the state of California. That means if it is spread out evenly. That means each school district is losing about $2,887,000.00.

Do you think that each school district could use that money? Charter schools whether you think they are bad or good have hurt the public school system and will continue to do so.