Just my opinion on a called Strike 3. Call this pitch exactly the same as 1 and 2. It's not right or consistent to change your zone one way or the other because of the count.
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Ummm...ok?
Originally Posted by Bill Savarese:
Just my opinion on a called Strike 3. Call this pitch exactly the same as 1 and 2. It's not right or consistent to change your zone one way or the other because of the count.
What makes you believe it isn’t being called the same, and why do you think that is?
Rough night last night. 
Separate but related comment:
Minor pet peeve of mine is when a batter has 2 strikes and dad/mom or coach yells out "2 strikes, protect the plate!" The batter knows the situation -- he probably doesn't need added worry about striking out looking.
I wonder if this "protect the plate" caution results in players swinging at too many clear balls with 2 strikes. I know we've played on teams where the kids take A LOT more "heat" from the coach for striking out looking versus swinging to the extent that it creates an advantage for the aware opposing pitcher.
Then again, maybe these kids typically tune out most between-pitch advice...
Originally Posted by Bill Savarese:
Just my opinion on a called Strike 3. Call this pitch exactly the same as 1 and 2. It's not right or consistent to change your zone one way or the other because of the count.
You have a point. A couple of Stanford PHD students did a study a couple of years back that purported to prove that MLB umpires tend to slightly contract their zone on an 0-2 count and slightly expand it on a 3-0 count. Just based on anecdotal observation I do think both are true, but I doubt that it's deliberate.
I've seen a trend of partners changing their zone for a called strike 3 and I'm both concerned and dismayed by this. I feel it hapens much to often. So I'm just bringing it up as a general point. The coaches definetly notice and are not very happy about it.
Uh... I thought you were going to advocate not ripping a steeerrrriiiike threeeee 
Seriously though - I think to a degree it's human nature to consider the count. At least the umpire knows the count! How many have done a good ripper on strike 2 only to realize you were just practicing? Obviously you don't want to take the one you took perhaps at 3-0 after 10 straight balls, but then again you don't want to take the one where the catcher is falling over reaching for the ball 4" off the plate.
In the long run it's always about consistency and predictability. That's what most of the coaches I've ever talked to about it want. If strike 1 is a zip code strike always and for both sides, while strike 3 is more realistic always for both sides, they'll deal. They'll let their batters know. I'm not advocating changing the zone, but the point is all about being consistent and predictable.
Originally Posted by JohnF:
Seriously though - I think to a degree it's human nature to consider the count.
"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."
--Katharine Hepburn as Louisa to Humphrey Bogart in "The African Queen."
My focusing thought whenever a big pitch is about to be delivered always has to do with reminding myself to see the ball and track it all the way in. I think this helps me resist the natural tendency to be affected by the count. Unfortunately, I'm not a reliable source for telling you how well it succeeds.
As an umpire my job is to call a pitch a strike if it is in the strike zone and call someone out if they are honestly out.No phantom double plays,no coming off the bag to soon on force plays,and making fielders apply tags to get outs even if the ball beats the runner to the base. In short my job is to call the game as honestly as I can. Honesty being the absolute key to quality umpiring.
Originally Posted by Bill Savarese:
As an umpire my job is to call a pitch a strike if it is in the strike zone and call someone out if they are honestly out.No phantom double plays,no coming off the bag to soon on force plays,and making fielders apply tags to get outs even if the ball beats the runner to the base. In short my job is to call the game as honestly as I can. Honesty being the absolute key to quality umpiring.
Great post! I honestly believe that it’s very rare when an umpire makes a bad call purposely. It may be because of weak skills, poor knowledge, loss of attention, or something else unintentional, but as long as the effort to be honest is there, it’s all good.
Originally Posted by Preston Davis:
...look for outs. That's your job, that's what you get paid for.
That's interesting. I once told a base ump in a 13u travel game stop looking for outs and call the game. He acted very insulted and gave me a warning.
Close play philosophy at the youth level...if you're gonna get an argument, at least get an out.
Strikes are anything the hitter can get his bat on. If the batter bails out on a pitch, it's a strike. He can't argue if he wasn't there. If the catcher moves his glove after the catch, he just told the ump it was a ball.
If you take two strikes, anything close is the third strike. We are not here to escalate pitch counts and / or see how bad your relief pitching is by officiating a walk-fest. You are up there to hit the ball and that requires a willingness to swing the bat. It's the umpire's job to keep it moving and get them swinging.
This all tongue in cheek with a grain of honesty ;-)
Strikes are anything the hitter can get his bat on. If the batter bails out on a pitch, it's a strike. He can't argue if he wasn't there. If the catcher moves his glove after the catch, he just told the ump it was a ball.
If you take two strikes, anything close is the third strike. We are not here to escalate pitch counts and / or see how bad your relief pitching is by officiating a walk-fest. You are up there to hit the ball and that requires a willingness to swing the bat. It's the umpire's job to keep it moving and get them swinging.
This all tongue in cheek with a grain of honesty ;-)
Originally Posted by CoachPaul:
Close play philosophy at the youth level...if you're gonna get an argument, at least get an out.
Strikes are anything the hitter can get his bat on. If the batter bails out on a pitch, it's a strike. He can't argue if he wasn't there. If the catcher moves his glove after the catch, he just told the ump it was a ball.
If you take two strikes, anything close is the third strike. We are not here to escalate pitch counts and / or see how bad your relief pitching is by officiating a walk-fest. You are up there to hit the ball and that requires a willingness to swing the bat. It's the umpire's job to keep it moving and get them swinging.
This all tongue in cheek with a grain of honesty ;-)
Strikes are anything the hitter can get his bat on. If the batter bails out on a pitch, it's a strike. He can't argue if he wasn't there. If the catcher moves his glove after the catch, he just told the ump it was a ball.
If you take two strikes, anything close is the third strike. We are not here to escalate pitch counts and / or see how bad your relief pitching is by officiating a walk-fest. You are up there to hit the ball and that requires a willingness to swing the bat. It's the umpire's job to keep it moving and get them swinging.
This all tongue in cheek with a grain of honesty ;-)
That grain of honesty especially applies in midweek summer "travel" league games where they don't even keep standings, and the games are essentially scrimmages.
If a kid won't look for an opportunity to smash the ball in these games, I seriously question whether he even likes to hit.
Last week I worked a game involving the 14U feeder team for my local high school. I know all the coaches and some of the parents. It was a friendly and relaxed setting on a lovely summer evening. Everybody had a good attitude and a healthy perspective of the game's insignificance. It was the sort of game I'd have worked for free if the coach had called me direct instead of getting me assigned through the association.
At one point I called strike one on a ball at the very top of the zone (microscopic frayed thread visible only to my LASIK-corrected eyes hanging from the bottom of the ball just nicked the top of the zone at the back of the zone).
The batter, whose dad is a coach on the high school team and whose family belongs to the same neighborhood pool as my family, was surprised by the call. But his parents are raising him right, so he knew to give no reaction. Even so, I could see the strain in his facial muscles. "Relax, Tom," I said. "I just got you a green light on the next pitch." He gave a half smile of understanding, then ripped the next pitch (a fat one he'd have probably been instructed to take with a 1-0 count instead of the 0-1 count I gave him) into the gap for a two-run double.
I try to call it straight, but I don't mind when my calls help players get the bats off their shoulders.
Once again Preston I get paid for calling the plays what I honestly think they are. There is no room for personal interpretations and agendas. In reality Baseball is a pretty simple game to officiate. You have a decent look at most calls and what it is what you call. It's as simple as that. You don't use your calls to speed up the game,you use your voice. You speed the game up by making sure you always have 3 balls in your bag not letting the players chase dead balls,ensuring there is only one minute between innings,counting warm up pitches and not letting batters step out.
There you go Preston, I knew you were just pulling my leg and are a fun guy. Enjoy Buddy!!
A new season is a couple of months away. I have received my H.S. schedule and I am preparing myself mentally for umpiring almost every day in April and May. The only thing I keep saying to myself is when I get home after every game I can tell myself I made every call what I actually thought it was. If I called a strike I actually thought the pitch was in the strike zone. If I called a runner out I actually thought he was out. No expanded zones ,no missed tags and no fielders off the base. If I can do that I will feel I had a great season . Anything less than that is dishonest and is doing a disservice to the game and everyone involved in it.
Good thread. I'm no umpire but have watched a LOT of HS, travel, and LL games up close (i.e., like pretty much everyone on these boards). Based on that, I can say that I believe I have witnessed plenty of (likely unconscious) situational strike zone expansion and tightening. Induced by weather (really hot or really cold), really long games, "timid" batters looking for walks, helping out a struggling pitcher, and the ever-popular "ump has a hot date theory." ;-)
I don't think an ump should actually expand the zone, just make sure to call everything that is grazing a corner. Many hitters somehow think a ball has to be fully over the plate to be a strike.
Not all situations are the same. MANY times there is plenty of justification to "adjust" the zone accordingly.
Just one scenario, meaningless game and one teams pitching staff just can't throw a strike this day. They are on their 3rd pitcher this inning. It's late in the game. They are down by 10 runs. The strike zone will expand 99% of the time at this point a ball or two out accept strike 3 of course unless the batter refuses to swing. Than very well strike 3 might be called out there as well.
I hope coaches are also adjusting their game plan at this point. Instructing the team to take a BP approach and to be going to the plate looking for any pitch they can hit etc....
I umped a JV game last year where the score was 10-0 before the defensive team got an out (walks, HBP, errors & hits). The defensive team asked me for a BP strike zone; given the situation, I told him to get the agreement of the opposing coach; my job was to apply a zone fairly and consistently. Once I had agreement of the coaches, I felt it was my job to facilitate their game.
Read Ichiro book about the difference in Japan and MLB strike zone.
when we travel to Japan we tell our catchers to couch low not to block the view for the umpire
ML umpires will adjust the zone and the good hitters know the adjustment.
Read ROn Lucino book. "Umpire Strikes Back and Strike Two"
Bob
The strike zone is the strike zone BE CONSISTANT .. thats all.
The absolute #1 most important quality of a good umpire is HONESTY. Any qualities after that are not half as important. If your not calling plays what you actually believe they are you are cheating the teams and should not be umpiring.
I feel that those players are playing to the best of their abilities...I MUST umpire to the best of my abilities! I treat each game as if it were the final game of the State Playoffs.
We had an umpire in our middle school area game tonight that basically tried to take over the game. We weren't allowed to throw the ball around the horn, the catcher wasn't allowed to go to the mound after his throw down to second between innings. I love umpires that take pride in their job and are very professional. This guy had a HUGE zone. He was obviously trying to speed the game up. I'll give it to him, he was consistent. But he called strikes on balls the batter couldn't hit. But he was consistent and we adjusted to him. I hate it when an umpire expands the zone because a pitcher is struggling or he realizes one team is inferior. Just be consistent and let the boys play.
Another thing the umpire did tonight... he took a foul ball to the mask twice. My catcher calls time and walks the ball out to the pitcher giving him time to gather himself as catchers always do. He gets fustrated at the catcher the second time and asks him why he needs a time out. Catcher says I was just making sure you were OK blue. Blue says No more conventions on the mound. This ain't politics! Then next inning catcher gets smoked by a foul ball and the umpire just stands there. Doesnt call time, doesnt ask if hes good or anything. Never seen a umpire so unprofessional.
Don't leave anything up to the umpire, if you can get the barrel on it then that's your pitch.
An ump should call the Zone the same with 2 strikes but there are many Kids who literally can only cover half of the Zone.
I had Kids Standing so Close to the plate that they couldn't hit anything middle in. it is OK to sit on a pitch with no strikes but often those kid do not even see the pitch that is perfectly on the inner (or outer) half and then are surprised that they are rung up.
make sure that you really cover the whole Zone and judge it correctly as a hitter. I have seen Kids take a low outside pitch that is easily 2 inches in the strike Zone and then act upset. especially down and away the Zone is larger than you think, those pitches are harder to see because they are farther from the eye. remember that only a fraction of the ball Needs to touch the Corner. a ball that has 99% of ist Diameter outside the Zone is still a strike if 1% of the ball is inside the Zone.
The Doctor posted:Don't leave anything up to the umpire, if you can get the barrel on it then that's your pitch.
Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, hitter gets one. Good hitters are swinging at their one pitch.
Go44dad posted:The Doctor posted:Don't leave anything up to the umpire, if you can get the barrel on it then that's your pitch.
Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, hitter gets one. Good hitters are swinging at their one pitch.
Godad you had to go there lol! That's what lead to my self imposed suspension from here once. The whole the ump gets one debate. And managing the pace of the game through calling questionable strikes.
2020dad posted:Go44dad posted:The Doctor posted:Don't leave anything up to the umpire, if you can get the barrel on it then that's your pitch.
Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, hitter gets one. Good hitters are swinging at their one pitch.
Godad you had to go there lol! That's what lead to my self imposed suspension from here once. The whole the ump gets one debate. And managing the pace of the game through calling questionable strikes.
One/One/One is strictly a mindset for a hitter to look for his pitch to hit and swing the bat. The pitcher will throw one really good pitch in the at bat, the umpire may call one you don't agree with but that's ok, the pitcher will throw one you like, always be looking for it. I like what a dominick said above, the strike zone is actually bigger than you think.
I would NEVER complain about an ump!
Bill Savarese posted:The absolute #1 most important quality of a good umpire is HONESTY. Any qualities after that are not half as important. If your not calling plays what you actually believe they are you are cheating the teams and should not be umpiring.
BEST POST !!! Honesty is the #1 quality
My son's college team had a game a few weeks ago. All game long, players, coaches and parents complained about plate ump not calling a 3rd strike pitch the same as strike 1 or 2. After the game I looked it up. There were 14 strike outs in the game, only 1 called. Kind of speaks for itself...
I do not understand "Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, batter gets one" Be Honest and consistent call the strike zone consistently all game! The best thing I heard from a coach was when his players were complaining about being called out on a pitch on the outside corner. "He's been calling that pitch all day swing the bat. As an aside they did and won!
My humble opinion. I never speak to my son during any game. I sit in a corner of the stands and watch him play. Now before the games we may speak about strategies, If we know the pitcher we may talk about what to expect those sort of things. I'm not a believer in choking up to protect the plate. I've always taught him on 2 strikes anything close to the plate is a strike regardless of what he thinks. If he gets a curve or breaking ball he can't deal with, I've taught him to foul it off. I believe because of that mind set he is aggressive at the plate and not easy to strike out.
Also umpiring is not as easy as it looks. The ball is coming at you pretty fast and it is only in the strike zone for a fraction of a second. That is not easy to see (if it would batters would not chase chest high fastballs).
POLOGREEN posted:I do not understand "Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, batter gets one" Be Honest and consistent call the strike zone consistently all game! The best thing I heard from a coach was when his players were complaining about being called out on a pitch on the outside corner. "He's been calling that pitch all day swing the bat. As an aside they did and won!
It's a hitters mindset. It's like "hunt fastballs", sit on first pitch breaking balls or whatever thoughts help a hitter. It's getting across to a hitter that you will get one good pitch per at bat, be ready to drive it. It's not a commentary on umpiring. Read my post above.
That's another thing I don't quite understand is why hitters sit on first pitch strikes. I see this a whole lot. Usually first pitches are fastball strikes. I also don't like coaches asking hitters to take on a 3 0 count. If you're on a 3 0 count, the next pitch is most likely the best fastball the pitcher has. Son never takes on 3 0 unless the coach signs him to do so, usually he has green light to swing and if the pitcher is good he is swinging first pitch strike. Unless of course the opposing pitcher or coach knows my son. Then we're not swinging first pitch and looking for off speed junk.
Dominik85 posted:Also umpiring is not as easy as it looks. The ball is coming at you pretty fast and it is only in the strike zone for a fraction of a second. That is not easy to see (if it would batters would not chase chest high fastballs).
This is truth. The younger and less skilled the game - the harder the job gets.
For those that have never tried it I can tell you when you have a kid throwing mid 80's with movement and a catcher in front of you that is sliding around there is a lot going on in that 1/2 of a second. Staying in the slot - not be influenced by the movement around you and focus on the ball all the way in and not anticipate is the start of good ball and strike umpiring. The other piece like anyone that is good at their job is to have good judgement of the zone and earn credibility from the participants in that aspect. Once you have it - you will not hear much noise from either side but when you miss one and are asked about it then you can admit it quietly and most coaches and players know it happens and will let it go.
Maybe not so much with the bases loaded and 2 out but you get the point.
Go44dad posted:POLOGREEN posted:I do not understand "Pitcher gets one, umpire gets one, batter gets one" Be Honest and consistent call the strike zone consistently all game! The best thing I heard from a coach was when his players were complaining about being called out on a pitch on the outside corner. "He's been calling that pitch all day swing the bat. As an aside they did and won!
It's a hitters mindset. It's like "hunt fastballs", sit on first pitch breaking balls or whatever thoughts help a hitter. It's getting across to a hitter that you will get one good pitch per at bat, be ready to drive it. It's not a commentary on umpiring. Read my post above.
Ok I got it from the hitters perspective