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Matt13 posted: I guess that you forgot that we still don't have true three-dimensional strike zones in Pitch F/X, which is why the results have to be modified post-game to determine accuracy ratings. This was merely a test to see if the procedure would work, not a test of its accuracy.

Evidently you’re not getting a look at the latest Pitch F/X capabilities.

https://baseballwithr.wordpres...-using-pitchfx-data/

 https://baseballwithr.wordpres...chfx-data-part-ii-2/

 http://www.hardballtimes.com/a...-dimensional-volume/

 But it’s really all academic because Statcast has replaced Pitch F/X. Like Pitch F/X when it 1st got started, there are accuracy issues, but like every other such innovation, as time goes by, those issues will be addressed and resolved.

bballman posted: Accuracy issues?  What's the point then??  Leave the umpires and let them make the calls. They're pretty dang good, if you ask me. 

 No one’s saying they don’t do pretty darn well. All anyone’s saying, is pitches not swung at could be called better. Since the technology is already in place for MLB, why not use it?

 If there’s one comment that’s pretty much universal, it’s that consistency is more important than accuracy. What kind of sense does it make when not only would accuracy be improved, but consistency would be almost universal. So what argument is left other than tradition?

 

 

Stats4Gnats posted:

Matt13 posted: I guess that you forgot that we still don't have true three-dimensional strike zones in Pitch F/X, which is why the results have to be modified post-game to determine accuracy ratings. This was merely a test to see if the procedure would work, not a test of its accuracy.

Evidently you’re not getting a look at the latest Pitch F/X capabilities.

https://baseballwithr.wordpres...-using-pitchfx-data/

 https://baseballwithr.wordpres...chfx-data-part-ii-2/

 http://www.hardballtimes.com/a...-dimensional-volume/

 But it’s really all academic because Statcast has replaced Pitch F/X. Like Pitch F/X when it 1st got started, there are accuracy issues, but like every other such innovation, as time goes by, those issues will be addressed and resolved.

You've just shown what I've said. The three-dimensional aspect is still not being evaluated by any real-time system.

The second issue is touched on in your last article. The reason that the "backdoor strike" isn't being called is because it's rare that it "looks like" a strike and no one considers it a strike. Ejections are abound if you call a high strike that just touches the upper rear edge of the zone.

Matt13 posted:

You've just shown what I've said. The three-dimensional aspect is still not being evaluated by any real-time system.

The second issue is touched on in your last article. The reason that the "backdoor strike" isn't being called is because it's rare that it "looks like" a strike and no one considers it a strike. Ejections are abound if you call a high strike that just touches the upper rear edge of the zone.

MLB has replaced Pitch F/X with statcast.

 

Backdoor strikes aren’t call because a human being isn’t capable of discerning them accurately consistently, which is one reason why so many don’t consider it a strike. Another reason is, not everyone in the game understands that the strike zone is 3 dimensional.

 

Sure there would be a lot of argument if the high strike just touching the zone were called. Why? Because everyone knows high and low “float”, and the amount they float changes all the time, even with the same umpire. IOW, not many people believe umpires can accurately and consistently call high or low strikes. If there was no one to argue with, there would be no ejections for arguing pitches not swung at.

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

Stats4Gnats posted:

If there was no one to argue with, there would be no ejections for arguing pitches not swung at.

I know you said this somewhat in jest, but that's just a dumb argument. That's like saying the jails are too full, so let's get rid of the police. After all, if there are no police, there's no one to arrest anyone,  problem solved. 

Teaching Elder posted:

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

Isn't believing that we're stuck with ball/strike mistakes forever, with no possible solution to that problem being more fatalistic? The humans that make the game wonderful are the ones pitching, hitting and fielding. The very best of the umpires are the ones who we often describe as going unnoticed.

Teaching Elder posted:

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

As I said earlier, the only argument left is tradition.

 Why on earth would automating the strike zone in baseball be akin to living as a fatalist?

 No one has said anything about removing all human error! Jeez! Why do those who hate to see change try so hard to keep easily correctable errors that affect the game in the game? Why not just do away with umpires entirely and let the players and coaches make the calls, or have the fans in the park vote on it?

 Heck, let’s go back to the original rules since change is such a bad thing!

bballman posted:

I know you said this somewhat in jest, but that's just a dumb argument. That's like saying the jails are too full, so let's get rid of the police. After all, if there are no police, there's no one to arrest anyone,  problem solved. 

Yeah, it was said with tongue-in-cheek, but think about it. If there wasn’t anyone there making the call, who would you argue with? Even Billy Martin and Earl Weaver would pass on shaking their fist at or trying to kick dirt on a camera 100’ up in the air. I scream at my computer all the time, but I know how stupid it is.

Stats4Gnats posted:

bballman posted:

I know you said this somewhat in jest, but that's just a dumb argument. That's like saying the jails are too full, so let's get rid of the police. After all, if there are no police, there's no one to arrest anyone,  problem solved. 

Yeah, it was said with tongue-in-cheek, but think about it. If there wasn’t anyone there making the call, who would you argue with? Even Billy Martin and Earl Weaver would pass on shaking their fist at or trying to kick dirt on a camera 100’ up in the air. I scream at my computer all the time, but I know how stupid it is.

I know you have no respect for tradition, but in my mind, the controversies and arguments are part of the charm of the game. Who didn't like Earl Weaver kicking dirt on the umpires shoes??  Who doesn't like Lou Pinella getting up in the face of the umpire?  Who didn't like Bobby Cox getting kicked out of a game to stand up for his players?  It's been part of the game since the beginning. Players and managers arguing with the umpires is a fun and entertaining part of the game. The game is getting too robotic. If you want to see balls and strikes called by a computer, play MLB2017. JMHO, of course. 

Stats4Gnats posted:

 

Backdoor strikes aren’t call because a human being isn’t capable of discerning them accurately consistently, which is one reason why so many don’t consider it a strike. Another reason is, not everyone in the game understands that the strike zone is 3 dimensional.

No. Not at all. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can. A pitch that's noticeably high at the front of the zone isn't aesthetically a strike. Call it, and have a long night.

The way the de facto zone is right now is because of aesthetics. It's not because of human error. If you go to a computerized zone, it will take cultural change for participants to get used to it--you're going to see a lot of frustration for a few years. Pitches in the dirt that are by definition strikes are going to get called.

I'm not arguing against this. I'm just saying that it's not feasible as of now. If it becomes available, it boils down to an argument over where the entertainment value in baseball is (and I believe I've ranted about that on a different thread, and posters have mentioned above.)

From an umpire's perspective, it would make life easier, but at the cost of some job satisfaction. When I have a great game on the dish, it is gratifying. However, it's just like any other job that becomes automated...the output might be more efficient, but the worker is less satisfied.

MidAtlanticDad posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

Isn't believing that we're stuck with ball/strike mistakes forever, with no possible solution to that problem being more fatalistic? The humans that make the game wonderful are the ones pitching, hitting and fielding. The very best of the umpires are the ones who we often describe as going unnoticed.

No.  And who said there's no possible solution?  I don't dispute that good umpires go unnoticed.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

As I said earlier, the only argument left is tradition.

 Why on earth would automating the strike zone in baseball be akin to living as a fatalist?

 No one has said anything about removing all human error! Jeez! Why do those who hate to see change try so hard to keep easily correctable errors that affect the game in the game? Why not just do away with umpires entirely and let the players and coaches make the calls, or have the fans in the park vote on it?

 Heck, let’s go back to the original rules since change is such a bad thing!

 There are certainly more arguments than just appealing to tradition.

1) There's the argument that the technology does not allow automated zones.  

2) There's the argument that interacting with actual human beings and watching human beings do jobs and interact with one another is preferable to sitting around watching a machine crunch data and spit it out.  

3) Then there is indeed tradition, which, by the way, is not inherently bad.  

I explained the link to fatalism with the statement in quotations in my original post.  But, I will break it down into more plain terms if needed.  A true fatalist would lack any excitement, meaning or pleasure in life, because everything is just the sterile result of fate.  No personal responsibility.  No moral good or bad.  Not even pleasure in a sublime effort - for all is the result of fated events.  The home run that one hit would not be a matter of talent meets hard work, but simply it was fated to happen.  The strike out would elicit no reaction either.  It is just the movement of fate.   I really don't want to see players walk away from the plate after being called out on a borderline pitch and not care because the ball went through this 100% accurate zone and thus they are really unfazed by having struck out.  That would suck and the game would suck too.

 "No one has said anything about removing all human error! Jeez!"

    I believe that the argument for automated zones is precisely about removing all human error in that realm.

"Why do those who hate to see change try so hard to keep easily correctable errors that affect the game in the game?"  

           You just contradicted your earlier claim that you are keeping human errors in the game.  

          And, who, by the way, hates change?  Are you really making the inference that a person's lack of support for one change means they universally hate all change?  Friend, you do not have the data to be able to make such a deduction.

"Why not just do away with umpires entirely and let the players and coaches make the calls, or have the fans in the park vote on it?"  

           This is a question better directed at you than me.

"Heck, let’s go back to the original rules since change is such a bad thing!"

          Sigh.  Most all of your post/argument has been intemperate, irrational and emotionally driven.  But this is the icing on the cake.

Teaching Elder posted:
Stats4Gnats posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

I don't care if they can call 100% of pitches accurately and give pitchers the benefit of the trickiest of pitches and make hitters feel like they are sitting in a warm bath.  Automated strike zones are a dumb idea.  If folks would like to use them to highlight how good the human umps are, have at it.  Having an automated strike zone would be akin to living as a fatalist; "What is, is and nothing more."  Humans, with all of their errors, make life worth living.

As I said earlier, the only argument left is tradition.

 Why on earth would automating the strike zone in baseball be akin to living as a fatalist?

 No one has said anything about removing all human error! Jeez! Why do those who hate to see change try so hard to keep easily correctable errors that affect the game in the game? Why not just do away with umpires entirely and let the players and coaches make the calls, or have the fans in the park vote on it?

 Heck, let’s go back to the original rules since change is such a bad thing!

 There are certainly more arguments than just appealing to tradition.

1) There's the argument that the technology does not allow automated zones.  

2) There's the argument that interacting with actual human beings and watching human beings do jobs and interact with one another is preferable to sitting around watching a machine crunch data and spit it out.  

3) Then there is indeed tradition, which, by the way, is not inherently bad.  

I explained the link to fatalism with the statement in quotations in my original post.  But, I will break it down into more plain terms if needed.  A true fatalist would lack any excitement, meaning or pleasure in life, because everything is just the sterile result of fate.  No personal responsibility.  No moral good or bad.  Not even pleasure in a sublime effort - for all is the result of fated events.  The home run that one hit would not be a matter of talent meets hard work, but simply it was fated to happen.  The strike out would elicit no reaction either.  It is just the movement of fate.   I really don't want to see players walk away from the plate after being called out on a borderline pitch and not care because the ball went through this 100% accurate zone and thus they are really unfazed by having struck out.  That would suck and the game would suck too.

 "No one has said anything about removing all human error! Jeez!"

    I believe that the argument for automated zones is precisely about removing all human error in that realm.

"Why do those who hate to see change try so hard to keep easily correctable errors that affect the game in the game?"  

           You just contradicted your earlier claim that you are keeping human errors in the game.  

          And, who, by the way, hates change?  Are you really making the inference that a person's lack of support for one change means they universally hate all change?  Friend, you do not have the data to be able to make such a deduction.

"Why not just do away with umpires entirely and let the players and coaches make the calls, or have the fans in the park vote on it?"  

           This is a question better directed at you than me.

"Heck, let’s go back to the original rules since change is such a bad thing!"

          Sigh.  Most all of your post/argument has been intemperate, irrational and emotionally driven.  But this is the icing on the cake.

out

TE, according to the umpire, you're out.

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bballman posted: I know you have no respect for tradition, but in my mind, the controversies and arguments are part of the charm of the game. Who didn't like Earl Weaver kicking dirt on the umpires shoes??  Who doesn't like Lou Pinella getting up in the face of the umpire?  Who didn't like Bobby Cox getting kicked out of a game to stand up for his players?  It's been part of the game since the beginning. Players and managers arguing with the umpires is a fun and entertaining part of the game. The game is getting too robotic. If you want to see balls and strikes called by a computer, play MLB2017. JMHO, of course. 

 I didn’t like any of those managers acting like ignorant buffoons, no matter what the reason! What they’ve done is encourage managers and coaches at lower levels to do the same thing, and I hate seeing it. I suppose you think what happened in yesterday’s NY/Det game was great. After all, what took place was based on tradition. If you really do like that kind of drama during games, it must be because you think the game itself is boring.

 Be that as it may, exactly what is it you want to see continue? In the rules you’re not allowed to argue how pitches are called, but it happens all the time. Why is that? It’s because many times the call was not correct, but that’s not the real reason anyone argues balls and strikes. When a manager does it, it’s almost always in some kind of pressure situation. When a player does it, it’s almost always because he’s been embarrassed. But whatever the reason or the situation, it doesn’t matter because arguing isn’t gonna change a damn thing, other than how long it takes to finish the game.

 But here’s the best part. It’s all because it’s known that umpires blow calls. You think it’s great that calls are missed and I think it’s stupid because it doesn’t have to happen. What makes it even more stupid to me, is that probably half of the arguments are BS because the call was correct!

 But all that aside, why are you assuming there wouldn’t be any more childish fits by managers or players? No one’s advocating getting rid of umpires! There will always be an umpire behind the plate because there are a lot more things he’s responsible for other than calling pitches not swung at.

 I’m not at all sure what your or anyone else‘s problem is with making sure the pitches not swung at are called as accurately as possible. Isn’t the game hard enough without having varying strike zones, and aren’t there plenty of other things to argue about during a game? It seems that you want baseball to be more like professional wrestling.

Matt13 posted: No. Not at all. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can. A pitch that's noticeably high at the front of the zone isn't aesthetically a strike. Call it, and have a long night.

The way the de facto zone is right now is because of aesthetics. It's not because of human error. If you go to a computerized zone, it will take cultural change for participants to get used to it--you're going to see a lot of frustration for a few years. Pitches in the dirt that are by definition strikes are going to get called.

I'm not arguing against this. I'm just saying that it's not feasible as of now. If it becomes available, it boils down to an argument over where the entertainment value in baseball is (and I believe I've ranted about that on a different thread, and posters have mentioned above.)

From an umpire's perspective, it would make life easier, but at the cost of some job satisfaction. When I have a great game on the dish, it is gratifying. However, it's just like any other job that becomes automated...the output might be more efficient, but the worker is less satisfied.

Well Matt, while I don’t believe a large percentage of umpires can call backdoor strikes accurately on a consistent basis, I’m willing to accept that I could be wrong. And that brings up something different, perceived strike zone vs actual strike zone.

 Until relatively recently, it was virtually impossible to get an accurate reading on where a pitch was relative to the strike zone. Without being able to prove a ball in the dirt could be a strike, it’s easy to understand why umpires wouldn’t want to call them and put up with all the arguments. But this isn’t 1920. It’s easy enough for ML managers to see where every pitch was if they really want to. The problem will continue to be when batters get embarrassed.

 

Teaching Elder posted:  There are certainly more arguments than just appealing to tradition.

1) There's the argument that the technology does not allow automated zones.  

Who argues that?

2) There's the argument that interacting with actual human beings and watching human beings do jobs and interact with one another is preferable to sitting around watching a machine crunch data and spit it out.  

Sure. But who would even notice that it was a machine or a human “spitting out the data”? NOTHING CHANGES! There’s still an umpire behind the plate. The only difference is, that umpire won’t be calling the pitches not swung at.

3) Then there is indeed tradition, which, by the way, is not inherently bad.  

True, but it’s also not inherently good either. Think about Jackie Robinson.

I explained the link to fatalism with the statement in quotations in my original post.  But, I will break it down into more plain terms if needed.  A true fatalist would lack any excitement, meaning or pleasure in life, because everything is just the sterile result of fate.  No personal responsibility.  No moral good or bad.  Not even pleasure in a sublime effort - for all is the result of fated events.  The home run that one hit would not be a matter of talent meets hard work, but simply it was fated to happen.  The strike out would elicit no reaction either.  It is just the movement of fate.   I really don't want to see players walk away from the plate after being called out on a borderline pitch and not care because the ball went through this 100% accurate zone and thus they are really unfazed by having struck out.  That would suck and the game would suck too.

Well, in the current game with strikeouts no longer being looked at as something bad as they TRADITIONALLY have been, we’re pretty much seeing players walk away after having struck out unfazed. In fact, I never have liked seeing a player who just swung at a rotten pitch or called out because a pitch froze him, fist bumping as he comes back to the dugout.

In fact, my guess is when the zone is accurate and a player takes a close one, he’s gonna be even more PO’d because it will not only be his mistake, everyone in the world will know it.

I believe that the argument for automated zones is precisely about removing all human error in that realm.

Actually, what it does is place the onus on the hitters. The better their ability to read a pitch’s location relative to the strike zone is, the fewer bad pitches they’ll swing at and the fewer times they’ll strike out.

You just contradicted your earlier claim that you are keeping human errors in the game.  

 

I didn’t clam any such thing. There will always be human error in the game. The difference would be that it wouldn’t be on the umpires to make or not make that error. It would be on the players.

          And, who, by the way, hates change?  Are you really making the inference that a person's lack of support for one change means they universally hate all change?  Friend, you do not have the data to be able to make such a deduction.

To begin with, I’m neither you friend nor your enemy. Secondly I didn’t say you universally hated change.

This is a question better directed at you than me.

Why? I don’t mind umpires at all. I asked you since you’re the one who wants to see them keep making mistakes.

Sigh.  Most all of your post/argument has been intemperate, irrational and emotionally driven.  But this is the icing on the cake.

No. It hasn’t been irrational or emotionally driven. If anything, someone who argues for unconditional tradition is the one being irrational.

What it boils down to, is you only believe in changes that you think are good.

Besides tradition, I think it is part of the strategy of the game. When my pitcher son would complain that he was not getting calls, While sympathizing with him, I would ask, "What do you need to do?" Answer: Adjust. Same thing for my catcher.  As a hitter, when he complained about the strike Zone. He needs to adjust as a catcher and as a hitter. 

I have seen two different results from a perceived bad Umpire. The team adjusts and takes advantage, Or they don't and they complain. 

By the time my son was a senior in college he knew most the umpires that umped his games. He knew there tendencies, and so did his coach. If the umpire had did not call the low strike, he would not be living at the bottom of the strike zone. 

I like the human element. But I also do not like replay in baseball or football. I find robots boring. 

If they automate Swings what is next. Systems from many angles call out's. Certainly cameras with there multitude of angles can quickly process and determine if a player was caught steeling or if the ball was in the mitt before the runners foot landed on the plate? Certainly they can call foul or fair better. 

 

Stats4Gnats posted:

Matt13 posted: No. Not at all. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can. A pitch that's noticeably high at the front of the zone isn't aesthetically a strike. Call it, and have a long night.

The way the de facto zone is right now is because of aesthetics. It's not because of human error. If you go to a computerized zone, it will take cultural change for participants to get used to it--you're going to see a lot of frustration for a few years. Pitches in the dirt that are by definition strikes are going to get called.

I'm not arguing against this. I'm just saying that it's not feasible as of now. If it becomes available, it boils down to an argument over where the entertainment value in baseball is (and I believe I've ranted about that on a different thread, and posters have mentioned above.)

From an umpire's perspective, it would make life easier, but at the cost of some job satisfaction. When I have a great game on the dish, it is gratifying. However, it's just like any other job that becomes automated...the output might be more efficient, but the worker is less satisfied.

Well Matt, while I don’t believe a large percentage of umpires can call backdoor strikes accurately on a consistent basis, I’m willing to accept that I could be wrong. And that brings up something different, perceived strike zone vs actual strike zone.

 Until relatively recently, it was virtually impossible to get an accurate reading on where a pitch was relative to the strike zone. Without being able to prove a ball in the dirt could be a strike, it’s easy to understand why umpires wouldn’t want to call them and put up with all the arguments. But this isn’t 1920. It’s easy enough for ML managers to see where every pitch was if they really want to. The problem will continue to be when batters get embarrassed.

 

Let's take it a little further, and go with the hypothetical pitch in the dirt. I chose that because those are pitches that can be seen from the dugouts, and no one disputes that they are technically strikes, as everyone can see very clearly where the pitch crosses the front of the plate. Thus, the reason that those aren't strikes isn't because people think they're low, it's because they think it's an unhittable pitch and unfair to the batter to be expected to defend against them. Again, culture. (And if anyone thinks I'm saying all pitches in the dirt are strikes, I'm not.)

If this happens with no adjustment to the defined zone, you are going to see HUGE decrease in offense, and pitchers will begin to work up (fastball pitchers) and down (others) instead of in and out. Ironically, I would also anticipate an increase in HR as this happens, but more than offset by batters having to defend against the extremely low pitch. So, over time, MLB is going to have to redefine the zone, too, most likely squeezing the upper and lower boundaries a bit.

Last edited by Matt13
Matt13 posted:

So, over time, MLB is going to have to redefine the zone, too, most likely squeezing the upper and lower boundaries a bit.

Exactly, but they should take that opportunity to change the zone to something close to the boundaries that umpires actually call today. I would argue they should make that change as part of the initial implementation. The zone has been redefined many times during baseball's history.
People obviously disagree about whether the electronic K-zone is good or bad for baseball. I don't know if there is a system built today that's accurate over the plate, reliable, and can report in near real-time. But I do know that a system like that is inevitable. I also think that the MLB will adopt that system if they think it will speed up the game, and/or help promote the game. Most young people (potential customers) want and expect technology. For those reasons, I think we will see it in the MLB within 5-10 years.

Matt13 posted: Let's take it a little further, and go with the hypothetical pitch in the dirt. I chose that because those are pitches that can be seen from the dugouts, and no one disputes that they are technically strikes, as everyone can see very clearly where the pitch crosses the front of the plate. Thus, the reason that those aren't strikes isn't because people think they're low, it's because they think it's an unhittable pitch and unfair to the batter to be expected to defend against them. Again, culture. (And if anyone thinks I'm saying all pitches in the dirt are strikes, I'm not.)

If this happens with no adjustment to the defined zone, you are going to see HUGE decrease in offense, and pitchers will begin to work up (fastball pitchers) and down (others) instead of in and out. Ironically, I would also anticipate an increase in HR as this happens, but more than offset by batters having to defend against the extremely low pitch. So, over time, MLB is going to have to redefine the zone, too, most likely squeezing the upper and lower boundaries a bit.

LOL. Whenever I’m watching a game and see someone clobber a pitch 6” or more away from the zone, I think about the “unhittable pitch” argument. What’s funny is, it’s a good argument, but only if a batter is looking in a specific spot for a specific pitch. IOW, no one’s catching up to 96 at the top of the zone on the inside corner if he’s looking curve low and away and leaning.

 To tell the truth, I’m not at all sure the pitchers would benefit as much as the hitters. The reason is, as accurate as people think pitchers are, they aren’t. So if someone wants to nibble up and down rather than in and out, I think they’re gonna be surprised. Right now hitters have to guard against a huge zone in order to guard against the real zone plus human error and the different zones umpires have.

 I suspect the better hitters will change their preparation and concentrate on becoming more aware of the strike zone, and that will benefit them over the long run because it’s gonna be the same no matter where they go. It’ll be like having the same umpire behind the plate every game.

So the easiest umpire gig of the evening will change from the rocker to the dish, but the rabbit is going to be plenty busy chasing balls to gaps once hitters adjust.

No longer will pitchers be able to rely upon expanding the zone laterally in order to cause batters to swing off the plate inducing weak ground balls, popups, and bats broken at the handle. If a batter can lay off the high stuff (and assuming the top of the zone shrinks) - there could be plenty of offensive action in the game.

I dunno - while I get the benefit of exacting and consistent strike zone, I really don't believe it'll be a "better" change. I've said it before - some pitcher is going to perfect an eephus pitch that can nip some part of that 3d zone as seen by cameras but currently laughed at by fans, batters, and umpires...  That'll be awful! 

 

I agree with stats here. Many   sports had the fear that some flair of the game gets lost but  the feedback for  almost all sports that used technology was positive whether it was  IR in baseball, the hawk eye in tennis or now the IR in soccer.

Now it is frustrating if machine calls  you out on a close call (sometimes blaming an ump makes you feel better) and some tennis stars hated that helpless feeling initially but if  you get used to it it is good and you can actually incorporate such a machine for training and get more accurate.

JohnF posted: So the easiest umpire gig of the evening will change from the rocker to the dish, but the rabbit is going to be plenty busy chasing balls to gaps once hitters adjust.

No longer will pitchers be able to rely upon expanding the zone laterally in order to cause batters to swing off the plate inducing weak ground balls, popups, and bats broken at the handle. If a batter can lay off the high stuff (and assuming the top of the zone shrinks) - there could be plenty of offensive action in the game.

 I don’t think it’ll change as much as you might think. The better hitters will take advantage, but that’s not to mean all hitters will.

I dunno - while I get the benefit of exacting and consistent strike zone, I really don't believe it'll be a "better" change. I've said it before - some pitcher is going to perfect an eephus pitch that can nip some part of that 3d zone as seen by cameras but currently laughed at by fans, batters, and umpires...  That'll be awful! 

That’s already happened. It’s called slo-pitch softball. If you’ve ever watched a slo-pitch game where bombs regularly hit the stratosphere, you can imagine what it would look like using a baseball.

We should also replace base coaches with computers. A simple algorithm computes known fielder's arm strength, foot speed and glove. A camera calculates the speed at which a ball is hit to outfield. You add in the baserunner's foot speed and any injuries that he might have at the time.  Then the computer continues to monitor the runner's speed down to the hundredth of a second, maybe less, and determines whether to send him home.   Just put a stop light in the coaches box.  No, better idea.  We will put some sort of sensor on the base coach, so that everyone has the illusion that it's real people making real decisions using their own skills.  This way there's no chance for error in base running as to whether a player will get thrown out going from second to home.  

SultanofSwat posted:

Will the cameras be adjusted for the height of every player?  Aaron Judge vs. Jose Altuve?

What happens when a guy squats on the last pitch?

The rules say the height is measured in his normal batting stance so if he  crouches lower than the stance he uses to hit the zone stays the same.

But the upper boundary is the biggest issue and likely has to be set manually on  the Computer screen for each batter. But a non  robo ump has to do the same in his head...

Teaching Elder posted:

We should also replace base coaches with computers. A simple algorithm computes known fielder's arm strength, foot speed and glove. A camera calculates the speed at which a ball is hit to outfield. You add in the baserunner's foot speed and any injuries that he might have at the time.  Then the computer continues to monitor the runner's speed down to the hundredth of a second, maybe less, and determines whether to send him home.   Just put a stop light in the coaches box.  No, better idea.  We will put some sort of sensor on the base coach, so that everyone has the illusion that it's real people making real decisions using their own skills.  This way there's no chance for error in base running as to whether a player will get thrown out going from second to home.  

JEEZIS! No one’s talking about doing anything but trying to make pitches not swung at called more accurately than they are now! MLB spends millions trying to improve how humans call those pitches, and have been doing that for at least 2 decades, and it’s worked! At the professional level the strike zone has never been more accurately called. But it could still be better, and without putting one umpire out of work!

 

Dominik85 posted: The rules say the height is measured in his normal batting stance so if he  crouches lower than the stance he uses to hit the zone stays the same.

 Close Dom, But no cigar.

 Here’s what the rule actually says.

 OBR: The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

But the upper boundary is the biggest issue and likely has to be set manually on  the Computer screen for each batter. But a non  robo ump has to do the same in his head...

Actually, both the upper and lower boundaries are issues because they’ll vary for every player. And you’re 100% correct that umpires have to do it too. The difference is, those limits can vary from umpire to umpire and from pitch to pitch, where the computer never changes.

 I believe that right now those limits do need to be manually set, but with the recognition software already out there, it wouldn’t take much to automate the upper and lower boundaries.

Stats4Gnats posted:

 

JEEZIS! No one’s talking about doing anything but trying to make pitches not swung at called more accurately than they are now!

 

For now.

That's what they said about IR. We're just doing it to be more accurate on those really close, game changing calls. It's expanded beyond that to any call a manager wants to protest.

This thread is about the strike zone. And the line is, it won't expand beyond this, we're just talking about pitches not swung at. Although it sounds sarcastic, Teaching Elder is right. If the strike zone deal got implemented, they would move on to something else that could be improved by computer, then something else. It wouldn't stop...

bballman posted: For now.

That's what they said about IR. We're just doing it to be more accurate on those really close, game changing calls. It's expanded beyond that to any call a manager wants to protest.

This thread is about the strike zone. And the line is, it won't expand beyond this, we're just talking about pitches not swung at. Although it sounds sarcastic, Teaching Elder is right. If the strike zone deal got implemented, they would move on to something else that could be improved by computer, then something else. It wouldn't stop...

What you seem to want is for no changes to ever take place in the game! Go back and look at how the game has changed since the 1850’s. The game has changed a great deal in the past and it's gonna change a great deal in the future. That’s just the way it is.

Why allow using pink bats and shoes on special days? Why allow throwback uniform days? Why allow weekends where guys can put whatever name they want on the uniform and wear patches saying who was special to them? Why lower the mound? Why outlaw foreign substances on the ball? Why not go back to the 1 bar catcher’s mask? Why not do away with helmets? Why not go back to 16 ML teams? Heck, let’s do away with the player’s and umpire’s unions and abolish free agency too.

 I don’t think you realize just how much the game has changed, and yet it’s healthier than ever! But who cares about that? Let’s just do away with all changes in the game because of tradition.

 Every single time there’s a change, there are those who claim doomsday for the game, but somehow the game has survived. But the bottom line is, there are 30 owners who control what’s gonna be done, and they’re gonna do whatever makes their bottom line look best. One day the research is gonna tell them to make the change and have technology call pitches not swung at, and its gonna happen no matter what traditionalists believe.

Do you read your own stuff?  You just accused bballman of not wanting any changes to take place at all to baseball.  He never stated such a thing nor has anybody else. 

Then you launched into using past changes to baseball to justify current and even future changes.  Under your own logic, you literally could not stop baseball from becoming kickball.  After all, there have been all of these changes in the past. 

Try to calm down and think about things reasonably before you post. 

Just throwing this into the mix....all rules changes have to be approved by MLB and the MLBPA.........

How many Position Players, Pitchers and Pitching Coaches are going to be for an electronic strike zone?.......There are a vocal few yes..., but I'm willing to say that most of them would only agree to the technology being used as a training tool for human Umpires rather than have pitches called by the machine.........

Of course I have no dog in this fight, this technology will never filter down into the level of the games that I do due to Cost and the number of years I have left to Umpire higher level baseball......

I for one would love to have such a tool used to assist in training real umpires.......

 

 

 

Stats4Gnats posted:

Dominik85 posted: The rules say the height is measured in his normal batting stance so if he  crouches lower than the stance he uses to hit the zone stays the same.

 Close Dom, But no cigar.

 Here’s what the rule actually says.

 OBR: The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

But the upper boundary is the biggest issue and likely has to be set manually on  the Computer screen for each batter. But a non  robo ump has to do the same in his head...

Actually, both the upper and lower boundaries are issues because they’ll vary for every player. And you’re 100% correct that umpires have to do it too. The difference is, those limits can vary from umpire to umpire and from pitch to pitch, where the computer never changes.

 I believe that right now those limits do need to be manually set, but with the recognition software already out there, it wouldn’t take much to automate the upper and lower boundaries.

Dom is correct.

piaa_ump posted:

Just throwing this into the mix....all rules changes have to be approved by MLB and the MLBPA.........

How many Position Players, Pitchers and Pitching Coaches are going to be for an electronic strike zone?.......There are a vocal few yes..., but I'm willing to say that most of them would only agree to the technology being used as a training tool for human Umpires rather than have pitches called by the machine.........

Of course I have no dog in this fight, this technology will never filter down into the level of the games that I do due to Cost and the number of years I have left to Umpire higher level baseball......

I for one would love to have such a tool used to assist in training real umpires.......

No one knows how the players would vote, but my guess is the players will do what they think will put the most $$$ in their pockets. So what it’ll be is purely a matter of marketing.

I think you’re correct that the technology won’t filter down in the near future, but then again ya never know.

Technology has been used to evaluate and train umpires for a fairly long time. I know I saw a Questec CD a Mil umpire had been given on his work in 2004.

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