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This isn't a complaint. I'm looking for points of view. My son plays for a quality team with a good coach. It's a 16U feeder team to a prominent showcase team. Last night my son's coach told him he's walking too much. So far he's 4-10 and ten walks or HBP. He takes a lot of pitches. He's very patient. He has the vision to see a pitch is inches off the plate. The coach told him he bats third to drive in runs, not walk. He told him he's not going to walk his way to the next level (college). For what it's worth the lineup is loaded. He leads the team in runs scored. While this is stats in small numbers, he has a history of walking a lot. He's always led off, hit second or ninth until the power developed this year.

One theory is the coach is right about a #3 hitter. And the ability to drive the ball is there. Another theory would be he should move to the #2 hole given he's a lefty, takes a lot of pitches and runs well. What do you think? For anyone whose son is younger and not at this level yet, the goal of the team is to balance winning with development so players advance in the game.

** The dream is free. Work ethic sold separately. **

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My question is this - is he supposed to swing at balls, or pitches that are not "his" early in the count? I think not.

I can understand what the coach is saying, but on the other hand, if a scout sees a kid swinging at all kinds of crazy pitches just so he doesn't walk, I don't think they will be very impressed.

However, if they see a kid be selective and only hit the pitches that are "his" pitches, it would be more impressive.

I don't see Chipper Jones swinging at pitches he doesn't like very often. I don't think Bobby Cox would be mad if he walked everytime he got up.

How about Barry Bonds (steriod issue aside). He not only hit the most HR's, but he also has the record for most walks. Should they have moved him from #4 to #1 or #2? I think not.

I'm not an expert or a scout, but those are my thoughts on the subject.
I personally don't think drawing too many walks is a fair criticism no matter where he hits in the lineup. On the other hand, I think I know what the coach is trying to say and that is to bump up his aggressiveness at the plate. For example, I doubt all your son's walks are 4 balls and no strikes. Thus, assuming he is seeing "some" strikes, then for his development, maybe he can be a little more agressive in the strike zone. I am not talking about swinging at first pitch curve balls but many kids will throw a get-me-over strike to try and get ahead in the count. In the first at bat, it is a good idea to look at one before swinging but subsequent at bats, the first pitch might be an opportunity for him to be more aggressive. Similarly, maybe he does not like the pitch on the outer half, for example. Again, if this team is about developing, then they ought to encourage him to drive some of those balls the other way. I am a big believer in the Ted Williams philosophy of finding a good pitch to hit. On the other hand, at that age, the way to learn how to hit is to swing the bat. The actual stats should be a secondary consideration imho. Finally, why not just listen to the coach rather than debate with him whether or not he is ideally suited for the 3-hole? There are a lot worse problems to deal with in life.
Does he take a lot of hittable fastballs? Does he go full count alot?

If so he's a older version of my son. Best eye I have seen in a younsgter but taking too many strikes and driving me batty especially when boy refuses to adjust to an umpire with a Texas zone. He just won't swing at something he thinks is a ball.

Always seems to have two strikes on him in every at bat. Doesn't faze him at all.

He batted leadoff though and a very high OBP, stolen bases,runs scored, etc.

Now on another team not batting lead off he's bought into swinging a fastballs early and often and I think he enjoys the game more. We talked about it alot.

Depends on the situation too. With runners on you sure want your 3 hole driving the ball. I can see the coaches point.

I also think you learn how to hit by...hitting.
what do coaches look for in #2 batter? Could someone tell me what coaches look for at each spot of the lineup hitting wise.

I have always hit 5th or 6th till this school ball year was till we had a 1-7 record. Coach changed the lineup majorly and i ended up at the number two spot. With our new line up we went 12-12 when we started at 1-7.


I was hit 17 times and walk many times, In summer ball which i am currently playing i am 0-1 with 6 at bats 5 walks and 1 sac fly. In my opinion, if he is working the pitcher and getting on base. I would keep him where he is at.
Last edited by GR4Y
RJM--Curious, does your son foul off a lot of pitches? 10 walks in 20 at bats, are they pitching around him? The quality of pitchers can't be that bad, do his teammates also walk a lot to? Even with a great eye that is 50% walks that is bad pitching. I would guess their pitching around him. (you must have better umps than us we have a different zone every game no way to walk that much Wink--just kidding umps.). Agree 2 hitter.
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Last night my son's coach told him he's walking too much. So far he's 4-10 and ten walks or HBP.


I'm interested in what you find out here since my son is also a soph/junior has developed similarly to yours....

My son heard 'you walk too much' all the time from his travel ball coach and thus they always left him in the lower half of the line-up. (Our lead-off hitter had the second most RBI's on the team..go figure... Razz) In HS he hit #2 as a freshman and #1 as a soph and now is #3 for summer ball and (I assume) next year.

He still walks a lot and gets HBP a lot too and I actually hope that doesn't change. The HS coach has never said anything about it and seems perfectly content to have him walk and then steal (which he never did in travel since he was hitting behind the slowest player), pull the ball down the line (in travel he 'pulled too much'), go with the pitch and hit the ball to right (no power going that way)...etc...

Actually his biggest problem in travel was he was one of the 'small guys' (6'2" now). Funny how the three 'small' kids (late bloomers) on the team are now all 6'+, starting on varsity teams as sophs, and are all-state selections....

IOW...every coach has an opinion and that's all it is....doesn't make it right or true....
Have a similar issue with 34. Tends not to swing until he has a strike. Does not expand the zone. He feels he is a pretty good two strike hitter,(I would not argue with that) so feels confident taking pitches, but I wonder if he was more aggressive if the production would be better. Last night, started with a bse hit and walked the next three time. With each of the walks he got there was at least one fastball strike that was hittable.

Not sure I want to change.......

None of his coaches have said anything to him, yet.
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Originally posted by CPLZ:
According to the Domincans... You can't walk off the island.

......


!! If a player is on a showcase team or playing at a showcase event its in his best interest to show he can swing the lumber. 1st and formost the showcase is for the player and scouts! Players need to give a scout a reason to come back and watch him play again. Swinging at "fringe pitches" or the first pitch/strike doesn't automatically make a hitter an easy/easier out. I certainly wouldn't advocate swinging at pitches a hitter can't do anything positive with.

If you are a 3,4 or 5 hitter I think the coach would rather see you swing at the slightly high/marginal pitch that might result in a sac fly etc rather then taking it for a ball.

Too many kids have been preconditioned from playing little league and reading "money ball", to take the first strike etc.

You can't become a better hitter with your bat on your shoulder!
If this were a high school team I would move him in the order.

This being a showcase team regardless of where he hits in the order I want him to hammer the first good pitch he can drive. We walk when we have no other choice. We hit because we are here to hit.

It sounds like the coach is trying to get him to be more aggressive. Now if he is getting nothing to hit then he walks. But if he is getting pitches to hit he needs to hit them. Unless the pitching is just horrible your son in the coaches opinion is too passive and not aggressive enough. Or he is fouling off the good pitches and ultimately getting walked. Only you know the answer to that question.

What I have found in showcase baseball when your facing top quality opponents you will struggle big time by being too selective at the plate. You will find yourself down in the count a lot and you will end up being a defensive hitter. The guys that have the most success are looking to hit not looking to walk and they are very aggressive in the zone and early in the count. Why? Many times you have a high school strike zone with top tier guys on the hill. This puts the high school hitter at a disadvantage going in.
good post CoachM:
I will say that if I'm hitting a guy 3rd he's there to drive the ball; if he's 6-9 he can't walk too much.
If he's got the ability; we want some doubles and shots in the gap. I understand this sounds greedy and a walk is still a good thing; but.... I guess i am greedy; I want to see that ball in the gap where my runners can run around the bases.
Coach

I agree that there is a difference between HS and "select team" play and hitting theories.

A big problem we find in our region is that many HS coaches like to have their players take the first pitch regardless of where it is, even if right down the middle of the plate.

We are a first pitch you like swing at it team (select travel)---we want our batters swinging---scouts don't want to see walks---trying to break some of these kids of the habit can be a tough job because it is so ingrained in them to take the first pitch

We firmly believe that even at the select team level the pitcher wants the first pitch more than the batter does. We know all our kids are the "studs" on their team and are good hitters--this being the case why get in a 0-1 or 0-2 hole? Swing at the first good pitch you see

We like our players to read the strike zone and be selective but not overly !!!

Interesting side bar---one of our players from the past two seasons is in his state playoffs was quoted in the papers after hitting a bomb in the game " I knew I wanted the first pitch and he grooved it"--nice to see that attitude
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regardless of where he hits in the order I want him to hammer the first good pitch he can drive.


Of course....

However, what we have here is a #3 hitter who, so far, walks a lot and hits .400 when he doesn't. Looks to me like he's hitting the right pitch...

I would assume in a showcase that the pitcher, who also is trying to impress, will try to throw strikes and won't be walking too many...In that case, if the hitter is just looking for pitches to hit, he should be OK. If, in reality, his goal is to walk, then he's in trouble.

I agree that the hitter should be looking to swing the bat. I just disagree with criticizing a hitter who does walk when his numbers outside of walks are acceptable...

Nothing is worse that the kid swinging 3-1 and popping up....
If your son's coach thinks he needs to swing more, I wouldn't argue with the coach! Its an opportunity. The coach is apparently looking for something more from your son because he believes your son is capable of more. Go with the flowSmile After all , showcasing isn't about numbers, its about how hard you hit the ball and how well you look swinging the bat. If you aren't swinging, you aren't showcasing. Coaches and scouts don't watch entire games waiting for players to swing.

To develop players often times need to step out of their comfort zone and try something new.
Last edited by CollegeParentNoMore
I guess it depends on the coaches philosophy. My son was considered an aggressive hitter by his coaches in high school..

He had his share of strikeouts but for an aggressive hitter, he didn't strikeout a lot and made lots of contact. His walk totals were usually very low. Maybe 4-6 walks a year in HS. He probably lost a few walks by fouling off ball four but none of his coaches tried to change his aggressive approach to hitting. He didn't let too many 2-0, 3-1 fastballs in the zone go by. He was expected to drive in runs. He hit 3rd on the varsity.
Last edited by zombywoof
quote:
If your son's coach thinks he needs to swing more, I wouldn't argue with the coach! Its an opportunity. The coach is apparently looking for something more from your son because he believes your son is capable of more. Go with the flow After all, showcasing isn't about numbers, its about how hard you hit the ball and how well you look swinging the bat. If you aren't swinging, you aren't showcasing. Coaches and scouts don't watch entire games waiting for players to swing.




Great thoughts also from Cleveland Dad and Coach May. They echo what my son's college coach told the team's 3-hole hitter this year: be more aggressive at the plate.
My son is always looking for his pitch to hammer until he has two strikes. He often walks after being down 1-2 and fouling off two strike pitches. He's looking to hit on 2-0 and 3-1. He's faced some good pitching. I don't know if he's just off pitches since he's hammered his hits and a few of the outs.

Tonight the coach batted him fourth and told him to swing the bat. Result: two walks and a bunt single Smile. In the first at bat with a runner on second, two outs, he hammered the 2-0 pitch just foul. After 3-1 they walked him. The next at bat he led off and walked. The third time there were runners on first and second, none out, down two. He beat out the sac attempt.

In the past I've seen him walk to the point where he was taking too many 2-0 and 3-1 pitches to get on. It ultimately affected his swing from not getting enough in game cuts. But he was at the top of the order. I don't think the teams we play know enough about how he hits now to know to pitch around him. The corners are still up early in the game trying to take away the bunt/speed. After growing he's a different hitter than previous years. He's mostly given up bunting for hits. But he has about 25% of the team's walks. He also had a lot of confidence in the hitters behind him if he gets on.

My view is he's an ideal #2 hitter. I also believe he has to hit enough balls hard to be noticed by the college coaches. I told him if the coach hits him third he's looking for rbi's.
Last edited by RJM
This is an interesting question.

Can a player walk "too much?" Probably not, but depending on the situation I do think a player can pass up pitches that can be hit hard if he has a mindset of getting the BB.

It depends on situation, too. Nobody on, I would give a kid some slack in passing up a driveable pitch if he was ahead in the count and we were behind, late innings and needed baserunners.

Men on base, I would be mad if a kid watched a fastball in the zone go by on a 2-0 or 3-1 count.

My guess is that your kid's coach senses that he is passing up too many good pitches in situations and on pitches that warrant a hard swing.
Thanks Coach. I needed this. My son is playing showcase ball this summer and even though he is batting very good this summer he is walking 2 plus times a game batting the #4 hole. His coach told him to start swinging and quit walking. I guess we were still in high school mindset.

For those of you who are not familiar with showcase ball it is not about winning as much as showcasing. It is about showing what you can do and as has been said, the scouts are not there to see a #4 walk every other bat. They want to see that he can hit the long ball.

Showcase ball was hard for us to understand to start with. You have to play the game from the scouts point of view and not the regular tournament and especially high school point of view. It is a different kind of mindset for this game.

Thanks again Coach for helping me remember what we are doing. Help your team and show what you can do.
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
...
One theory is the coach is right about a #3 hitter. And the ability to drive the ball is there. Another theory would be he should move to the #2 hole given he's a lefty, takes a lot of pitches and runs well. What do you think?


Is the 4-hole hitter a cream-puff? Maybe he's not commanding enough good pitches for the batter in front of him?
We had a double header last night. Son is now batting in the three hole for the first time since LL. No walks last night, nine RBI's. He was quite proud that he drove in every baserunner.

It makes a big difference when they have to pitch to you...

quote:
Go with the flow After all, showcasing isn't about numbers, its about how hard you hit the ball and how well you look swinging the bat. If you aren't swinging, you aren't showcasing. Coaches and scouts don't watch entire games waiting for players to swing.


This is fine as long as you don't start chasing a lot of marginal pitches....
From a scouting or recruiting standpoint, people need to see a player swing the bat and hit.

Once the player proves he can hit and it results in being drafted or signed with a college... Every coach/manager would take a walk in every at bat. In the end it is impossible to walk too much. Unless you are a RBI guy taking some good pitches to hit, looking for a walk, in an RBI situation. The other potential problem is if the guy who walks all the time is a base clogger. Base on balls and speed fit together nicely. Problem is if you walk too much in the beginning, you don't create any interest.
My son went thru the same situation walks alot hit .460 in high school led the league in walks. His coach would get on him at times in certain situations. His coach said that it is all about the aproach to each at bat sounds like his coach is more concerned about his quality of each at bat, once this was explained to my son he seemed to hit the ball gap to gap much better. When he strikes out is it looking? That was my sons problem 8 KS 6 looking.

My only advise would be that you put your son with this coach for a reason, trust him and allow him to make your son better. GOOD LUCK
Maybe he's still in the smaller / faster mentality he had before he grew? Meaning he knew he could still hit, but he also knew he was one of the faster / better base runners and wanted to get on however he could to score...which is a GREAT mentality. But if it's about getting noticed..maybe he needs to swing a little more freely.

Have you asked him what pitch(s) he's looking for early in the count or in a hitter's count?
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Because the guy who walks all the time has three bases in front of him "all the time".


Well, he's one base closer than the guy who strikes out... Razz

And guys that are on base tend to score more often than guys that aren't...

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But it would be the same for a hitter who never gets an extra base hit.


Then I wouldn't put him in the 3 hole...

And we've come full circle.... Cool
My son has been a leadoff batter his whole baseball life who I instilled a disciplined approach in from the beginning. He actually walked his first 9 ab's in select ball when he was twelve. He used to litterly draw about 2.5 walks per hits and that was great in the lower age leagues. He was just like many of you describe great eye, refused to swing at pitches an inch off the outside. At about 14 years old I noticed he was getting rung up many times on slightly outside pitches especially down and away. He often took so many pitches he passed up the chance to drive the ball for extra bases and would go 3-2 numerous times. I talked it over with him and finally he agreed to start swinging at those pitches slightly off the plate with two strikes. With his great eyes and reactions he usually fouls the pitch off until he gets something he can drive. As a senior, he more than doubled his extra base hits and now walks at more of .75 to 1 walks to hit ratio. As you face better pitching, I believe you can have too passive of an approach. Like Coach May said, select ball is about showing your hitting skills and while you can still be disciplined don't be looking for walks all the time. Hit first but take a walk if they give it to you. A third place hitter is there to drive the ball and should be possibly the best hitter on the team with an aggressive approach. Actually my sons K's decreased as he didn't take as many third called strikes that he felt weren't perfect.
My son has never had problems getting rung up on pitches just outside the strike zone. He knows umpires zones may vary. But he's not swinging at those pitches with less than two strikes. I believe it's why he gets deep in the count a lot. He's struck out once (swinging) in twenty-seven plate appearances this summer.
Per the NCAA web site for the ACC here are top average walks per game:


Tyler Holt, Florida St. -- 0.87
Kyle Wilson, North Carolina St. -- 0.85
Brad Miller, Clemson -- 0.83
Dustin Ackley, North Carolina -- 0.8
Stephen Cardullo, Florida St. -- 0.75
Luke Murton, Georgia Tech -- 0.74
Anthony Sosnoskie, Virginia Tech -- 0.74
Steve Bumbry, Virginia Tech -- 0.73
Jason Hagerty, Miami (FL) -- 0.72
Stuart Tapley, Florida St. -- 0.7
Kyle Seager, North Carolina -- 0.69
Jason Stidham, Florida St. -- 0.69
Chris Herrmann, Miami (FL) -- 0.68
Scott Lawson, Miami (FL) -- 0.68
Mike Freeman, Clemson -- 0.66
Jeff Schaus, Clemson -- 0.66
Mike McGee, Florida St. -- 0.64
Michael Belfiore, Boston -- 0.61
Nate Freiman, Duke -- 0.61
Mark Fleury, North Carolina -- 0.61
Phil Gosselin, Virginia -- 0.59
Last edited by CollegeParentNoMore
I guess I am too old, and so is my son.
Are 16 year olds really this good? Are umpires really this good?
I watched 3 years of Milb umpires call pitches3-4-5 inches off the plate strikes.
I watched high school umpires call just about anything a strike, and there wasn't anything consistent to their calls.
From what I saw, I just don't think any hitter can consistently be taking pitches which are inches off the plate.
Most importantly,I don't think umpires that I saw from high school, to college, to summer league to Milb called balls and strikes with the level of precision that I am reading in this thread.
Mine just tries to foul that outside pitch just off the plate. Last year he fanned 4 times in 112 plate appearences as a junior in high school but sure enough 2 were on strikes called probably 4-6 inches down and away. Actually You may have less k's if you expand your zone a little outside the strike zone with 2 strikes the way some of these high school umps call. Last year we had some really good ones umping but this year a couple of guys were flat out jokes.

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