Can you have too Many Pitches?

I think this all comes down to the meaning of "have"?

Doesn't really matter how many you actually have, but if you can throw whatever you have for strikes!

Let's assume you HAVE* (see below) 5 pitches. Is it a crazy approach to save say the split until later in the game to try and throw the hitters off balance the 2nd or third time thru the lineup?


For you Fungo
* HAVE = able to grip the ball five different ways and throw an acceptable percentage of each one for strikes. Just kidding with ya.

Yes, if you don't throw them all well.

IMHO, it's better to throw fewer pitches better.

Talk to Mariano Rivera--how does he have--two at the most

5 is alot!! How old is the player?

razor

He's 16. Will be starting his sophmore season. He doesn't have great velocity (yet I hope) so keeping hitters off balance and guessing is his game.

Of course in the end the coach will evaluate his "arsenal" and make the decision as to what pitches he will throw.

Splitter is usually for older kids with large hands.

My son had a fair splitter. He found it was hard to control precisely. He used it more as a change up. I think he's scratched it from his menu for this upcoming season.

He's been working on a cutter for this year.

He has lots of pitches. Making them do their thing isn't hard. Developing command of the pitch is far tougher.

A few days ago he told me that he even tested a screwball It hurt his arm like hell and he immediately gave up on that one.

But number one comes above all the others. His main job as a soph should be to get his speed up. It's very hard to increase speed after age 17 unless he hits a growth spurt. .

Rivera may only have two pitches, but he is a closer. Lidge (another closer) has no offspeed pitch, and that lacking cost the Astros a shot at the Series.

If a pitcher uses the same fastball mechanics for all pitches (other than the curve, of course) there is nothing wrong will using different grips. Yes, it will take some time to gain command of them. But it will put more weapons in the pitcher's arsenal. It is one more way of keeping the batter off balance.

If the pitcher cannot gain command of a grip over a period of time (and not just a short period of time), then eventually he needs to drop that grip.

If the pitcher is using the same mechanics, why is it supposedly "impossible" to be successful with five grips? Falls back to the old "but we've never done it that way before".

Personally, I don't recommend the splitter because of the extra stress placed on the tendons.

Thanks for the input Texan.

We're going to start the year with 5 pitches. We'll see how the coach uses them. His change-up is very good with a lot of late drop in it so he may not need the splitter. The thing with his split that is so good is the tailing action it has along with the late drop. Looks like it will be very difficult to hit. Of course, control is number one so we'll see how that goes in live game situations.

In pitching, quality is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than quanity.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
In pitching, quality is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than quanity.

And a good pitcher can throw more than just two pitches with quality.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
In pitching, quality is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than quanity.

A 16 year old pitcher who had different pitches to throw for strikes, mine concentrated with perfecting his fastball and change, variations of them, changing speeds effectiely, with work on his curve.
You don't need 5 pitches to get you ahead. You need excellent command and control of what you have, plus velocity.
I think posts such as this helps to create anxiety among young pitchers and parents. Remember, it is NOT what you have, but how you use it.
JMO.

What were those "variations" TPM?

And merely a two seam fb, four seam fb, c/u and curve gets a pitcher up to four pitches. Yet three of those four are thrown with the same mechanics.

Mine had a pretty good high school career on two pitches. FB and a CB.

Missouri-BB-Dad,

I'm not a coach or expert, but I will just relate my son's experience since he was similar to yours in HS and is now a college soph. His velocity was mediocre in HS (80 mph senior year) but he threw 4 or 5 pitches in most games, with quite a bit of success. He has very long fingers and could also throw a very good splitfinger in HS without feeling any extra strain.

When he got to college, Fall of his freshman year, the head coach checked out all of his pitches and called his splitfinger "awesome" and "unreal" ... then did not call it at all in games that year. This coach knows a lot more about college baseball that my son does, so my son figured there was a reason.

A college coach, or at least this coaching staff, wants to see a good FASTball first (location, velocity and movement). Then work on your changeup until you can throw it in any count with the same arm motion as the fastball. Then get your curveball (or similar breaking ball) to that same point.

My son learned a few things freshman year, and this fall (soph year) he made sure to understand what HIS COACH wants him to throw this year: fastball, changeup, curveball. That's what he is working on, and that's what will be called in games. Maybe by junior year they will want him to work on his splitfinger again, maybe not. But there must be some good reason why they only want to see three pitches from him this year.

It was fun for my son to have success in HS by having 5 pitches in his arsenal and getting wins, but I think he would have been better prepared for college baseball if he had understood the importance of developing a good FASTball first, then a changeup, and only after those two, another pitch. Just my son's experience, as seen through the eyes of a mom who is very interested in this topic.

Thanks MN. Does your son regret ever learning and throwing the splitter?

Our kids do sound a lot alike. I think most everyone knows the splitter is a very hard pitch to control all the time. Your son's college coaches probably scratched the split based upon their previous experience with other pitchers. It will probably happen that way with my son as well but he's still young so why not at least give it a try. He likes throwing it. He has very good control with all his other pitches so I don't think testing a splitter is going to hinder him in any way. It's very simple, if it doesn't work ...drop it.

I know coaches like to keep things reasonably simple but the upside of mastering a splitter IMO outweighs the possible downside. I'll keep you posted.

If it doesn't work out, I'm sure all the coaches here on HSBBW will say "I told you so". That's ok too.

I read that the split is tough on the arm and that the guy who developed it showed it to his ML teammates and put almost evry one out of commission. My son has the book at colleg or I would look up thye reference.

Missouri-BB-Dad,

"Does your son regret ever learning and throwing the splitter?"

No, I don't think so, since the splitfinger was a factor in his success in HS. But in retrospect I think the other pitches served somewhat as a crutch for him and it would have been better for his college career, to focus more on the fastball in HS and less on breaking pitches.

Interesting BobbleheadDoll.

My son's pitching coach has taught him to throw it with the same motion as his fastball. No issues yet and he's been throwing it for 5 months.

If you find out more on the book, please let me know.

Missouri I will see if I can find the info. It was in the Louisville Slugger book on pitching.

quote:

I read that the split is tough on the arm and that the guy who developed it showed it to his ML teammates and put almost evry one out of commission. My son has the book at colleg or I would look up thye reference.

I don't think this is the case. Basically what you are throwing is a pseudo-knuckleball with a pure vertical movement. As long as you don't twist the wrist, then you shouldn't have problems.

Keep in mind that Bruce Sutter went to the Splitter because of previous arm problems. The Splitter was more likely the saviour of his career rather than the thing that ended it.

Missouri - you have a PM.

Chris the splitter is a fast ball motion that tumbles out from between your 1st 2 fingers.. The only thing pseudo is your advice.
There is no similarity in the pitching motion for a KB.
Back to the lab.

Texan - PM back at ya.

We expect of Varsity Pitchers to be able to locate 4 pitches. Fastball, Change, Curve and Slider. We teach all with the slider coming last and if we have a Freshman on Varsity, we have them throw a cut instead of a slider. Locate is the key term here. We don't think it is enough to throw them for strikes. We need to throw a couple of these pitches for balls. However, we mean fist (up and in), black of the plate on either side and low and away. Everything revolves around the Fastball. We expect our pitchers to know when to throw a 2 or 4 seamer. We expect them to be able to throw a cut. We expect this given what we have taught them and the count. I know colleges expect pitchers to have 3 quality pitches. Most people don't believe you can have a good curve and slider. I've had one kid throw 5 pitches. He threw a split and was effective with it. I would say that mastering 3 pitches in high school is an accomplishment. JMHO!

quote:

Chris the splitter is a fast ball motion that tumbles out from between your 1st 2 fingers.. The only thing pseudo is your advice.
There is no similarity in the pitching motion for a KB.

I agree that a Splitter is thrown like a fastball but with a different grip so as to reduce the backspin that is applied to the ball (thus the word "tumble").

As a result, there is a similarity in the movement of the ball with a knuckleball.

A splitter (ideally) isn't thrown by twisting the risk, so there is less risk of elbow than with a curveball or slider.

CoachB25,

I am a high school baseball dad with a son who pitches. When you say our pitchers need to know when to throw a 2 or a 4 seam fastball, what exactly is the situation that you would use one of these pitches instead of the other. Also, pardon my ignorance, but what does the 2 seam fastball do versus the 4 seam.
Sorry for probably to basic of a question, but I am trying to learn as much as I can.
Thanks!!

Hopper

I'll try and help since you haven't had any responses yet. When you absolutely need a strike (i.e. down in the count 2-0, 3-1 etc.) usually go with the 4 seam. It doesn't move as much as the 2 seam. A 2 seam may tail out of the strike zone.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/pdf/pitchingpage.pdf

Hopper,
hope the above pdf file opens for you. Good explanation of the basic 8 pitches used by major league pitchers.

quote:

but what does the 2 seam fastball do versus the 4 seam.

4-seam fastball is supposed to be a bit faster than the 2-seam variety. Use it when being gunned by a scout

quote:

Also, pardon my ignorance, but what does the 2 seam fastball do versus the 4 seam.

A 4-seamer will generally travel faster than a 2-seamer and will fall less (which is why a 4-seamer is often referred to as a rising fastball while a 2-seamer is referred to as a sinker).

That is because (paradoxically) the interaction of the 4 seams with the air reduces the drag on the ball more than do the 2 seams.

Hop, the four seam is the fastest & straightest pitch. But it is only perhaps 1-3 mph faster than the two seam. Pretty small difference, really.

The two seam, thrown by a RHP, should tail in some to a RH batter. Thrown properly by a pitcher who gets good movement, it will tail in late & with some sharpness.

Hop, we throw a 2 seamer when we are ahead in the count and a 4 seamer when we are behind. Having said this, many want to start an at bat out with a 4 seamer to get ahead. We will go over a scouting report and let our pitcher know where we are going 4 or 2 seam. Naturally, the amount of velocity also matters to some degree here. 3-0 will almost always be a 4 seamer for us. We use the cut when ahead in the count as well. We also like the cut to run it in on hitter's hands both right and left. The cut will only move a couple of inches but it can be very effective on the hands. I don't think many use the cut this way.

One of the things I've seen over the years is that different individuals can achieve different movement. Certain pitches should move in certain directions, but some pitchers will have a different look.
I had a kid once that threw a 2 seamer that broke hard down and in, sinkng action. When he was behind in the count, we wanted him using it as it enticed lots of ground balls.
First is the grip, then finger length and then some things are just individual.
As for number of pitches, if a young kid can control and command 3,4,5 pitches, and the coach has confidence in him, go for it.
Many believe as I do, that kids don't work on their fastball enough these days, and thats the most important pitch they will throw.