Can you tell the HS coach no?

Im still a player,so take my thoughts for what its worth.

No player will be complete or know "how to do it" before HS.I will Guarantee that.
If he isnt in a HS program to not only play,but to better himself as a player through the instruction of a respected coach,then he might not have a spot on the team,because there are plenty of kids who are willing to change poor mechanics or forms that have been with them for some time.

In my case,I felt I had a pretty good understanding of proper fundamentals and form prior to HS,but I really didnt.My coach sat me on varsitys bench all year,told me to be like a sponge and watch our all district senior catcher,and If I was willing to work with him,I could start next year.Low and behold I was willing to change and chances are I will start as a sophomore

Change is often good.I hope your son would be open to this

I probably shouldnt have chimed in on this,but speaking from recent expirience,I hope this might help a little bit

I think results are what counts. If he's making it happen and excelling, I'd be willing to bet the HS coaches won't look to change much!

quote:

we've picked one way and it works well for us.

Thats great as long as " its working " and the coaches have no complaints. If things go haywire or if your son ( god forbid ) gets in a slump,..then I would recommend that the above plan go on the back burner and that he follow the HS coach's experienced advice. Its the coaches program and if your son wants to stay in the program, unless hes a superstar and doesnt make mistakes ( is there such a thing? ) I think he's going to have to be willing to adapt and improve on a a daily basis.

I wish him the very best of luck!
There is no such thing as a bad question.

quote:

probably shouldnt have chimed in on this,but speaking from recent expirience,I hope this might help a little bit

Futurecatcher27, I for one, enjoy hearing from players who are playing
" now ".
I think your opinion is valued!!

Some of the worst coaching around comes from HS coaches. And I have heard that statement made by college coaches as well as scouts (real scouts, not just "associates"). Yes, there are some good ones. But there are also some very bad ones.

There are others who will even dare to "mess with success", regardless of their ability to effect improvement.

If the coach wants to make changes, openly resisting that will likely mean that your son pays a price. The parents telling the coach that the son won't change will almost surely lead to problems.

Making changes could mean that your son's mechanics are degraded, with long term consequences. Not making changes could hurt his playing time on the HS team.

There is a chance you could get lucky & have a great baseball mind as HS coach. And he would either recognize solid mechanics, or teach solid mechanics. But from what I have seen, your chances of that are not very good.

This is a tough situation. Hopefully your son will either have a good coach or a lazy bad coach (who won't exert the effort to make changes). It's the energetic bad coach that is the most trouble.

quote:

Can we tell them he's not going to change? Or is this an instant invitation to sit on the bench

First thing to learn, There is NO we.
In HS your son will do all the talking to his coach.
You must Stay out of it for your's and your son's sake.
JMHO. EH

Papi - I agree with the others. The coach is the coach, regardless if it's summer travel team, HS team, or his college team. If your son has concerns when he gets there, allow him to discuss them with the coach.

If you want to worry about HS, worry if he'll keep his grades up, worry if he'll be cooperative and pleasant to his coaches, worry if he'll do what he needs to do to help his team win, worry if he'll set a good example for the younger players as he advances through HS. Worry about the things your son has control over and help him understand those things and what they mean to his future.

quote:

It's the energetic bad coach that is the most trouble.

Very true!!!!
Unforunately very true. Causes the brain to pain!

Sounds like trouble to me. I don't want any part of that situation. Id rather see him and you at our rivals school. I don't mean to sound like an a** its the just the cold hard facts. Parents and players that feel that they have all the answers coming in will end up with all the excuses going out the door. Good Luck

quote:

Parents and players that feel that they have all the answers coming in will end up with all the excuses going out the door

Never heard it put that way,..but I like it!
I may make that my new motto!

You might have asked a valid question but I just can't believe your son is only 13 and you are worrying about this NOW!

Your son by 15,16,17 will be a different player, what you think works NOW may not then. Do you think that at 13 he has learned everything he needs to be a good HS player?

I'm staying out of this one. Of the 18-20 kids I put on the varsity roster, 4-6 of them will believe I'm the energetic bad coach! LOL!

CoachB25,...I'm guessing you have the battle beat already.

Its the coaches ( & parents of players for that matter ) who always think/know they're the best, that are painful.

The ones that keep an open mind are my heros.

biggerpapi,
What happens if your son gets to high school and his past success doesn't continue?
Should the coach, who sees him everyday and who knows which adjustments/changes he needs to make, just keep his mouth shut and defer to you and his "outside" coaches?
At some point, every player struggles in baseball. Being able to make adjustments is critical to continuing to develop.
One of the great compliments we have heard about our son is how "coachable" he is. That has helped him immensely and perhaps more than ever this past minor league season.
Personally, I think you are making a huge mistake even entertaining those considerations when your son is 13 and has so much to learn about this very difficult game.

You never stop learning. They have batting coaches for MLB teams. Are they irrelevant?

Your son should be entering the season feeling good about himself and his game having worked with a personal coach/trainer in the off- season. Let the kid get out there and show what he's got...production will generally silence the critics. Why anticipate problems and put negative thoughts in his head.

See, I knew this question would sound bad...and I completely understand why it does.

I appreciate all of these comments and take them all to heart.

Of course, I'm thinking about this when he's 13 because we have goals. And they're not to be the best 13 year old baseball player in Illinois...they are to be the best 18 year old baseball player in Illinois.

I have heard some horror stories about bad coaching and we value our current high quality coaching so much. I also gather by hanging around on HSBBW, that Summer Baseball can be more important than the high school team. Therefore, I don't want him to get screwed up for a 20-game schedule on a mediocre HS team.

I simply love my son, I see some ability and I want to put him in the best position to succeed.

Sorry if I come off wrong but I do appreciate what you are all telling me.

quote:

I simply love my son, I see some ability and I want to put him in the best position to succeed.

That is great.

Maybe look at it from another angle. Can 20 games under a given set of coaches cause that much harm?

At what point do we want our kids to learn things on their own? Can't things also be learned from experiences good and bad? When did it become our responsibility to control everything?

I felt it was my son's job to deal with the coaches he had. Were they all top notch? No. Would I have wanted him to only learn from two guys? No. I think a major part of baseball is learning how to deal with different people as infielddad suggests. It is part of growing up.

Take a deep breath. If he has the talent, he will not get screwed up by bad coaching and more than likely will benefit greatly by other people's perspective and input.

Biggerpapi,
I think you are in a fairly common predicament. I don’t think your question was taken wrong but the answer is NO --- neither you nor your son has the right to tell the coach he’s not going to change ---- but you do need to tell your son how things really are and how to handle the situation. My son was in the same situation as your son a number of years ago and faced the same dilemma but I knew I couldn’t (and shouldn’t) talk to the coach about his coaching techniques vs. the coaching techniques of the private hitting instructors. Most coaches like to “coach” and they naturally want to fine tune a good hitter or pitcher so they can claim “I taught him”. I told my son to listen intently, but continue doing what he’s been taught because success will never be criticized. If your son is the best player in Illinois when he’s 18 there will be a number of people that will take credit for his success and one of those taking credit will be the coach you are complaining about today ---- play the game and get used to it.
Fungo

Biggerpapi,
We all understand that you love your son and only want the best for him.
It is very important for young players to learn the fundamentals of baseball. It's just that this sport sometimes requires certain skills that come at different ages. What works at 13, playing with 13 year olds, usually needs adjusting as he grows and matures, even if you think that he has had the BEST instruction. If you make him think or you think that he has learned all that there is to know now, it is possible that he may not move forward as he matures.
Over the years son has had excellent coaching, very good coaching, good coaching to fair coaching. Regardless, in every situation he has been able to learn from all of them. His HS coach didn't have to teach him very much and if he did make adjustments son listened with respect as he was the coach, regardless, above anything else. You need to make sure that your son learns to respect his coaches at every level, even if he doesn't agree with their coaching. It is an essential part of the game of baseball. If you make him think now, at 13 that he doesn't have to learn anything more from anyone else you are setting him up for failure. If he is considered down the road as "uncoachable" it will hurt him.

Your son has many many years ahead of him to learn much more as he grows up. You and he need to learn to enjoy each experience. Worrying about what a HS coach will or wil not do is totally unnecessary at this time.

There are many many coaches who are very fine HS coaches. Summerball is very important for additional exposure, but HS ball is also important for his development as an individual.

At 13, players should be enjoying the game, learning about being part of a team and trying to do the best they can in school and on the field.

Biggerpapi, FWIW, I have alot of experience in this kind of situation......

My advice is to let your son handle this with his Coach and you stay out of it......Someone very smart in these matters finally taught me that lesson....A problem bigger than playing time is peer pressure from the other players if you get involved.....It will be hard on your son.....

Believe me when I tell you that it will work itself out just fine if your kid can hit.....

More great comments.

I do know that he needs to keep learning...obviously he isn't Derek Jeter yet. We just like the way it's going so far.

This is another example of me needing to learn to let go a little. This year he had his first experience with a foul-mouthed teammate who apparently has a history of trouble. But he's a great baseball player.

I know my son will have to learn to be around people he wouldn't normally associate with due to baseball...Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb and Jeff Kent ring a bell.

I'm just feebily trying to put that idea off for another year or too.

Been where you are, but kept my mouth shut and glad I did. Ours was a pitcher - which arguably has even more technique issues. This is part of HIS journey. He can learn from everyone he meets (sometimes what not to do)Tell him to listen to everything they say and try it. Who are his current teachers, Derek Jeter, Omar Vizquel and Ron Washington? C'mon. As a Dad you had better make your peace with this now. In a few years your son is going to tell you he knows more than you and he'll be right! Get ready.

Do you really think the high school coach will want to ruin his fielding technique? As others have said, your son will grow and change. Support him, but do not undermine his relationship with the coach. He will have a lot of different coaches. In a few years, if he is truly gifted, they will claim they "made" him that way. Just smile and nod your head. You and your son will know the difference.

quote:

My advice is to let your son handle this with his Coach and you stay out of it

Suppose the coach tells the kid to change positions. what do you tell him no? Or sacrifice bunt? or steal a base? Or take a pitch?

The only appropriate time for interaction with the coach regards the players health. If pitch counts are a problem the issue should only be handled privately and with the diplomacy of Churchill. Other than that, grab a folding chair, buy a hot dog and a Coke, and enjoy the game.

Okay, brod. Your son has spent five or six years working with one of the best pitching coaches in Texas. This PC's students have done incredibly well. Not just in terms of pitching successfully, but also in terms of arm health and mental attitude. The PC has taught various fb grips, c/u & curve. Does not recommend the slider. Too hard on the arm and not really needed given the other pitches in the arsenal.

Your son, a 14YO freshman, now has his HS coach telling him to throw a slider. The only thing this HS coach knows about good pitching is he can't hit it. Heck, he just got stuck with the baseball program anyhow. He is a football coach. What is the course of action?

Texan,
I think Dad04 gave good advice on that one!

Pitchers are in a much stickier situation than position players, their health should be the most important issue and as a parent you have the RIGHT to speak up. JMO.

Simple answer--the player can and should tell the HS Coach NO !!!!!!

BiggerPapi,
So what has Jeff Kent done other than not getting along with a juicer and his buddies? He said some pretty nasty things on his way out of SF but given what has surfaced since I'm not sure he wasn't at least a little bit justified.

As for the coach bit you need to back off, let him play ball and make his own way. Let him learn from the coaches and the instructors. Throughout their time in baseball players are going to hear a lot of different things from a lot of different coaches and they have to just learn to filter out what doesn't work and apply what does. The only time he needs to say no is if a coach does something that will put his health in danger.

Best player in Illinois? He should set his sights higher...good enough to make varsity on a good team in CA, FL, GA or TX.

We've been pretty fortunate as arm care seems to be a priority at our HS. My son's arm injury wasn't pitching related and he'll be given all the time he needs to rehab properly.

This is an interesting topic, because I'd bet almost everybody on this board has faced this situation at one time or another. It goes with the territory of having a boy who has had some success at baseball. New coaches have different approaches, and it is inevitable that one or another of these approaches will be different than what he is currently doing and had success with.

I totally agree with those who warn against the parent intervening with the HS coach on anything other than a health issue.

Transitions are tough for parents. I just went through the HS transition with my kid last spring. Very typical - I was an involved dad at every level, my son had success at each level.

High school comes and there is a cold turkey withdrawal. It is hard to stay out of things but it is absolutely required, IMHO.

I can honestly say I had zero conversations with my son's coaches this spring and summer about hitting or catching technique. They had changes they wanted my son to make, some of which I disagreed with. I told him to do what they said.

They saw him trying it their way. He had the first slump of his life. He worked through it, came out the other end having adjusted to the higher level of pitching.

They eventually more or less left him alone. I think he did incorporate some of their approach, but certainly not lock stock and barrell. When he had success, they stopped tinkering.

Through it all I talked with him, but not them. They are the coaches and he is old enough to deal with them directly. My job is to support both.

Yes, it is different than youth baseball!

Biggerpapi,

FWIW, My son’s had the luxury of lots of good professional instruction at a very young age. They (3 sons) all had different ability levels, but were advanced for their age in knowledge.

Probably the very best advice I ever gave them was this…

The coach is ALWAYS right!

Now we all know that this can’t always be true. But it eliminates one of the biggest hurdles a young player can face! I might think a particular coach is wrong and then figure out how to deal with it. But not ever would I tell my son’s that a coach is wrong. Not once did any of my sons ever complain to me about a coach! They knew it was a no-no! It eliminated one excuse from all conversations.

Listen… If your son is a very good player, he will play for many different coaches. Some of these coaches will help him tremendously and some won’t. No coach should be capable of ruining your son’s potential. Not every coach will enhance his potential. But being a player who is labeled uncoachable is an absolute killer!!!!

If I could give one bit of advice to parents and players on this site, it would be this… Do not ***** about coaches! In fact, show total respect whether it’s deserved or not! You will be a winner because of that!

The same thing goes for teammates. I just hate it when I hear a player saying anything negative about a coach or a teammate. I’d bet anything that most every college coach gets equally turned off by that. People need to understand the negative signals that can be sent.

Read what “Fungo” posted earlier, but never allow your son to act like he knows more than who ever his coach might be. If a coach is going to ruin your son… he’s destined to be ruined… because he will (sooner or later) run across some coaches that won’t be as good as others. We all know that all players do not possess the same ability. So we should understand that all coaches do not possess the same ability either. But there’s usually something that can be learned from nearly every coach, if you try hard enough. And if not, you have jumped yet another hurdle on your way to the top.

Note: This obviously does not include health concerns that could be a danger. That is another topic! And if the son becomes a Big League all star, I guess he can do whatever he wants, I’m only talking about the path a young player takes.

PS. I don't expect everyone to agree on all of this. It's just one approach and some have been very successful with a different approach.

2 points:

A good coach will realize when something is working and understand that you don't fix it unless it's broke.

and

A good coach will know how to communicate with a player and parent when issues like this come up.

On the flip side a player might not want to change thinking that his hitting coach taught him this or that and it works. Well maybe it's not working and he could get better. While I say a coach has to keep an open mind so does a player. To think that you cannot change in order to get better is the first step to mediocracy.

quote:

The same thing goes for teammates. I just hate it when I hear a player saying anything negative about a coach or a teammate. I’d bet anything that most every college coach gets equally turned off by that. People need to understand the negative signals that can be sent.

My number 1 goal this winter for the kids is getting this across.

One more point... FWIW

I have learned that there are a lot of instructors out there who are doing much more damage to players than the players coach. And people are paying a lot of money for this "terrible" instruction.

If you are going to pay for instruction... make absolutely sure you're paying for GOOD instruction. It shocks me how many people pay lots of money for something that will actually keep their son from reaching his potential.

The GOOD instructors are very valuable and they get results. But there are many who are much better salesmen than they are instructors.

Stated by TPM:

quote:

Your son by 15,16,17 will be a different player, what you think works NOW may not then. Do you think that at 13 he has learned everything he needs to be a good HS player?

I agree with TPM.

A former pro player and youth coach once told me that a player's ability to adjust after the age of 14 is paramount to any future success. Those that make adjustments positively will succeed. Those who do not will not.

My advice would be use what works and discard what doesn't. If a coach tells your son something he knows to be incorrect, he should respond with: "Ok coach, thanks." If doesn't work for him, then go back to the old way.

I assume you are talking about things like hitting technique and pitching technique? Remember that some techniques that work at 13 don't work in hs. I feel that is because some instructors teach what works now instead of developing for the future with sound mechanics and foundation.

Another problem I have seen with hs coaches is trying to improve a really good player by "helping." They just don't realize they are incorrect but they are trying to help.

A quick story. A friend of mine asked Tom House what one should do if their pitching coach wanted them to change their mechanics and the pitcher wasn't comfortable and felt it might injure him or change his motion. According to my friend, Mr House responded that, "he should point to the inside of his elbow and say that every time he pitches, it hurts right here." I know of very few coaches who would continue to have the pitcher make the change.

A good coach will recognize what's working and leave it alone; a good coach might also notice what isn't working amongst the hundreds of factors in defensive and offensive skills and offer your son some assistance. Talk to your son about always listening to Coach, no matter who Coach is. Coach deserves respect by his position (and I know there are coaches who have proven themselves not worthy of respect, but that's another topic.)

I believe going into hs with the attitude that the coach will be detrimental (perhaps because of gossip you've heard) will not do your son any good at all, as a ballplayer or as a person. Life lesson time here.

A bad coach may well not know enough to recognize when your player is assimilating his ideas, as long as your son is successful. He should listen intently (and, as Brod says ) smile and nod, then quietly continue to do it the right way.

Should your son struggle or slump, it's time for adjustments. Whether they come from you, your outside coaches, or the hs coach (blind squirrels and all that) is a balance your son will have to strike.

When my son faced this problem, I believe he handled it well. If Coach said something (shall we say) ill-advised while instructing a group, my son would say something to the effect that "I can see why you're saying that. But if we do it that way, what if X happens. If we so it this way, then (here are the benefits) What do you think?" Coach may reconsider his instruction, he may still shut your son down; but there isn't the confrontation of "no" or being arguementative.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
More great comments.

I do know that he needs to keep learning...obviously he isn't Derek Jeter yet. We just like the way it's going so far.

This is another example of me needing to learn to let go a little. This year he had his first experience with a foul-mouthed teammate who apparently has a history of trouble. But he's a great baseball player.

I know my son will have to learn to be around people he wouldn't normally associate with due to baseball...Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb and Jeff Kent ring a bell.

I'm just feebily trying to put that idea off for another year or too.

What the heck is wrong with Jeff Kent?

Son is on a pre high tournament team with a teammate that he cannot stand. I told him to "fake it" because he was going to be on the same HS team with the guy for 4 years. Son tells me that no, he isn't because he will be on the team level above the disliked teammate.

You gotta love it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:

A former pro player and youth coach once told me that a player's ability to adjust after the age of 14 is paramount to any future success. Those that make adjustments positively will succeed. Those who do not will not.

My advice would be use what works and discard what doesn't.

Absolutely the players ability to assimilate adjustments, both mental and physical, into his game at each level, whether they come from coaches, trainers, teammates, Tom House, most likely a combination, will determine how far he goes.

The day he quits trying to improve by learning, is one day closer to being passed by someone trying to get better.

A couple of things are apparent in this thread. Some posters obviously were exceedingly disappointed in the coaching that their sons received and believe that they experienced the "norm" and not the exception when it comes to HS coaches. That's tragic!

Some posters believe that they and their sons know so much more than the coach that they expect certain rights/privedleges/whatever you want to call it and disregard what the coach says. This will be interesting as it applies to teamwork and essentially the length of time before there is a standing room only line for each and every parent to present their case for what their son will be allowed to do, where they will play and just how much better they(parent) are than anyone else in the program and might just as well take over the coaching duties.

There are some posters here that realize that only one person writes out that practice plan, starting lineup, ... and if he gets hacked off, John John will be sitting his buttocks on the bench.

WHAT I HAVE WONDERED THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD IS THAT IF THIS COACH IS SO POOR, WHY ARE YOU LETTING YOUR SON PLAY FOR HIM. JEAPORDIZE YOUR SON'S HEALTH? YOU'RE THE PARENT. MAKE A DECISION AND LET YOUR SON PLAY SUMMER BALL. EVERYONE IN THE END WILL BE HAPPIER.

The players that have alot of success before hs have a much tougher time making adjustments in hs for the most part. Why? Because they have had success and they believe "Why should I change that,it has always worked for me?" What works at 12 or 13 might not work at 17 or 18. Sometimes kids with long swings who are powerfull at a young age will have a ton of success against the pitching because it is behind the hitting. Then they get older and the pitching gets better and the long swing ends up being a stike out swing. This is just one example. I would rather have a kid come into our program with no instruction than alot of poor instruction. Now on the other hand the ones that have come into our program that have had good instruction at the younger ages have been way ahead. If they are willing to make those little adjustments they become outstanding players. The ones who do not do not improve. Kids come into HS having played against kids their own age their whole lives. Suddenly they are playing against kids 2 3 4 years older than them and much stronger than them and more importantly much more experienced than them. The fact is you have to constantly make adjustments to improve as a player. We have all had the experience where a coach has told our kids something that we knew was bogus. Just tell your kid to say "yes sir" and move on. Some coaches are outstanding some are good and some are idiots. Its all part of life. Learning how to take the good and forget the bad is a big part of it. Believe it or not it is good for kids to be coached by alot of different people over the years. Sometimes it just allows them to see things differently and helps them out. Mine has be fortunate to have several coaches over the years summer and fall. Some have been outstanding at teaching the game. Some have been outstanding at giving a different perspective to the game be it hitting or just the approach to the game. Kids are smart. They know bs when they see it. I dont believe that we are ever at a point where we can say "Ive got it". Yes sometimes we are in a zone and everything is going great. But it is just a matter of time before we are saying "Man I just aint feeling it right now". Its all part of the game and what makes it so special.

biggerpapi,

Whatever you decide to do, whatever happens, treat this as a learning experience for your son. We can choose our friends but can't choose our relatives (and sometimes not our work colleagues or coaches).

The development of the ability to deal effectively with all kinds of people with all kinds of disparate agendas will serve him well in the future. No matter what his profession, this skill will serve him well.