Can't believe what I saw in a tournament this weekend

All I can say is WOW!

This other coach should have had better sense than this.

You are in California so perhaps this young man has been pitching regular and is in mid season form not January form-- do you know all the facts?

Seems like a bit much regardless, but I've seen worse. My guess is that he's got a spot on his HS team given his performance against strong competition. Haven't you traded words with a program down here previously?

I would have to agree that is a too many pitches for such an event. I have seen worse. Each pitcher and their parents need to step up if it is an issue. They should have spoke to the coach about it if was a concern. I personally would not throw a guys so many pitches. In the Fall/Winter season 3 innings max but most times 2 innings and 40-45 pitches max. In Jupiter we stretch a guy or two into 5 innings because of low pitch count. I really don't see a need to have a guy throw so much in January.

For some the win is more important than the player's health. Pitch count is touchy issue. There are HS coaches who complain about travel ball coaches over using pitchers. Most travel team teams use pitchers less because they have more of them. The ironic part to this I see pitchers threw high pitch counts during the HS season followed by guys throwing complete games during their HS summer league games.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
You are in California so perhaps this young man has been pitching regular and is in mid season form not January form-- do you know all the facts?

First it is virtually impossible to be in mid season form. Not enough daylight hours and HS programs are not throwing enough to be even close to being in season form.

For giggles though lets just say he was in form. Why would you want you kid to throw that many pitches in an event like this. Is a college coach going to think he is something special? Hardly. Actually these are 16U kids for the JO and I think it is the quiet period anyway.

There is no logical explaination other than stupidity. Stupidity of the coach, the player and his parents.

Many of these coaches have a problem with losing , guess it bruises their ego , but there is no way a 16 YO should be throwing that many pitches in January , IMO , 16 YO shouldn't throw that many pitches in any circumstance . Tomorrow is much more important than any winter tourney . We played a Triple Crown event to get the kids ready for tryouts and we kept our kids at 45 or less and we throw pretty much year round here in Florida .

.

"...we throw pretty much year round here in Florida."

Especially when these are in season.




.

.



Because of our weather here in Illinois this winter we're able to throw pretty much year round too!

.

Some folks just don't get it...We had a family send their kid with another family to a tourney over half way through the summer last year (also 16U). The young man is a fire baller and it seemed that his speed and control were off. He walked a couple, gave up some hits and was pulled quickly. After the game, my son told me that the kid told them later that he had thrown 130 pitches in a game right before we left for the tourney...neither he nor his parents had even mentioned to our coach or anyone else that he was also playing on a house league team and pitching almost every game for them...He couldn't pitch the rest of the season, but luckily there was no long term damage. Our coach would never have thrown him had he even been made aware, but some folks just don't get it...

D1, thank you. What in the world is there to WIN in January? Is a pitch count in excess of 120 considered excessive for a 16 yr old at any time?

Dr.Tracy Ray, a family physician with a specialty in sports medicine and who practices in Birmingham (get the connection) stated at the annual meeting of the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine that the maximum pitch count for boys 15-16 should be 90, followed by 4 full days of rest.

This is 2010. Don't these coaches read any of the medical information that is readily available?

.

"What in the world is there to WIN in January?"

Answer.




.

I know you were kidding gotwood but there is plenty of places to throw during winter in Illinois. Mcook, Cangy's PLace, a new one in barrington, mvp just to name a few.

Rosy, as far as pitch count's go back and look. Some of us bring it up all the time. I think one I watched was a 16 year old in a hs game at 169 pitches, last year a kid threw a nine inning game and 2 days later closed the last 3 innings of another game, or a summer league tournament week of 3 games by 1 player. It is not just lilmited to california, I know you have been through it so I a preaching to the choir, arm injuries that is.

In HS Stephen Strasburg would start throwing an hour before his start and then pitch a CG. My guess 300 + pitches. My point is each pitcher is diferent and it's up to the pitcher to understand his limitations and not subject himself to abuse. The boy understands his, and sets the tone early by telling the coach he's good for 50,60,80 pitches. He'll also asks who else will be pitching in that particular game. If the coach says I don't know. The spider senses will be tingling.

2bagger, yes, we've been through the Tommy John Experience. But, I also remember sitting and watching all those HS games, getting so caught up in the moment, that I clearly understand just how innocently a pitcher can go from throwing 85-90 pitches in the 6th, to trying finish what he started and ending up at 120+ in the 7th.

JR spent his month home from college recuperating from his latest surgery. He had hip arthroscopy, ala ARod and Chase Utley and will miss the season. He's hanging em up, with no regrets and no self pity. We've both enjoyed the ride, from T-Ball to being a college player. Hundreds of hours spent together that leave a lifetime of memories, for which I am eternally grateful.

Boy, will I miss it.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
In HS Stephen Strasburg would start throwing an hour before his start and then pitch a CG. My guess 300 + pitches. My point is each pitcher is diferent and it's up to the pitcher to understand his limitations and not subject himself to abuse. The boy understands his, and sets the tone early by telling the coach he's good for 50,60,80 pitches. He'll also asks who else will be pitching in that particular game. If the coach says I don't know. The spider senses will be tingling.

dswann- Wow, where do I start. It's not up to the pitcher how many pitches he is able to throw- it's up to the coach. The coach should have a plan of pitch counts that have a criteria of health, age, body-type, effort, conditioning, and recovery.

I simply don't buy your 300+ pitch stuff either regarding Strasburg (btw- he was just another good pitcher in HS). Pitches are thrown "in anger". They are different from warm-ups, long toss, picks, etc.

Finally, I don't know ANY pitcher who would ask who is backing him up. It's none of his business.

Rosy, I am sorry to here that he had to go through another surgery. I wish him the best of luck in whatever direction he now goes. Whet ever it is I am sure he will be successful.

.

We extend the same sentiments rosy.

.

Please excuse TRhit.........He tries....

D1 and Blue Dog

Kids in warm areas like California play baseball year round adn thus you expect the kids to be in shape at any given time of the year--

But then you guys have all the freaking answers or at least think you do-- and yes I do try but certainly not for your benefit

We have all seen these things happen many times. Coach wants to win so badly he leaves a kid out there far too long. Coach is not experienced enough to understand what he is doing. Coach understands exactly what he is doing but risks the young mans arm for win. Etc etc.

Many times over the past few years in showcase baseball the up and coming team has saved their top arm to face us in a local tourney. We of course throw 3 guys and play everyone with a rotation. The coach in an attempt to make a name for his team goes all out and puts a kid out there for the duration if he can do it. The parents of the pitcher are excited because they think the kid is making a name for himself as long as everything is going good. And when it doesnt they are upset and want the kid out of the game. And some parents are upset while others dont have a clue.

These situations will continue to happen. All you can do as a parent is educate yourself and look after your son if the coach will not. We could all post horror story after horror story but whats the point? We all know it goes on. Just educate yourself and dont play on a team that does this and get off a team if they do it.

Every kid is different and every kid is capable of throwing different amount of pitches in a different amount of time. But we have to draw the line somewhere. We have to have set limits because we just dont know. We err on the side of caution if we are going to do everything we can to attempt to ensure we dont overuse a young kid and subject him to a certain amount risk we dont have to.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
In HS Stephen Strasburg would start throwing an hour before his start and then pitch a CG. My guess 300 + pitches. My point is each pitcher is diferent and it's up to the pitcher to understand his limitations and not subject himself to abuse. The boy understands his, and sets the tone early by telling the coach he's good for 50,60,80 pitches. He'll also asks who else will be pitching in that particular game. If the coach says I don't know. The spider senses will be tingling.

dswann- Wow, where do I start. It's not up to the pitcher how many pitches he is able to throw- it's up to the coach. The coach should have a plan of pitch counts that have a criteria of health, age, body-type, effort, conditioning, and recovery.

I simply don't buy your 300+ pitch stuff either regarding Strasburg (btw- he was just another good pitcher in HS). Pitches are thrown "in anger". They are different from warm-ups, long toss, picks, etc.

Finally, I don't know ANY pitcher who would ask who is backing him up. It's none of his business.

ncball

1. Agreed, if the players being paid or he's playing collegiate baseball. At those levels I believe the coaching staff would follow your criteria of health, age, body-type etc... I have my doubts on whether or not a travel ball coach who calls up to see if the boy can pitch for him next week, would be up to speed on your pitch count criteria. So who makes the call? In that case the boy will tell the coach I'm good for 40,50 ,60 pitches.

2. My experience was to watch SS in HS. which is about 5 miles from my home. He would routinely throw for a solid hour before a start. In the bullpen he would throw 92-95 and settle in at 90-91 on the mound. You right though, he was just "good" in HS. A bad body, poor mound presence and few other things kept him from being drafted out of HS. But do the math 7 inns at an avg 17 pitches per inn (good pitcher) = 119 pitches + 5 warmups per(7)inn = 35. 35+ 119 = 155. The boy throws 25-35 max effort in the pen before a start so your now at 190 pitches. So yeah. I think if you threw for a solid hour before your start and pitched 7 inns. 300 pitches would be actually be on the low side.

3. In a travel venue my does. He's was guilted once into pitching a cg by a coach in a meaningless game. To what end? the $1.50 medallion for 1st. This is how it goes "Coach I'm good for 75 pitches will there be relief or a closer to finish if needed". "Yes or No I'm done at 75".

The question for you ncball. Based on your pitch count "recipe". If you deem your starter is good for 100 pitches and he's says I'm only good for for 60. Do you keep running him out there? Do you cut him? does he take one for the team? or do you listen?

Final thought. We've had a number of scouts pay a visit the past few months and without exception they've all made the same statement. "DO NOT LET A COACH ABUSE YOU!". Makes sense to me.

Hopefully the coach left town with a sweet remembrance.

Looks like BlueDog escaped the dog pound. (hitting forum)

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
In HS Stephen Strasburg would start throwing an hour before his start and then pitch a CG. My guess 300 + pitches. My point is each pitcher is diferent and it's up to the pitcher to understand his limitations and not subject himself to abuse. The boy understands his, and sets the tone early by telling the coach he's good for 50,60,80 pitches. He'll also asks who else will be pitching in that particular game. If the coach says I don't know. The spider senses will be tingling.

dswann- Wow, where do I start. It's not up to the pitcher how many pitches he is able to throw- it's up to the coach. The coach should have a plan of pitch counts that have a criteria of health, age, body-type, effort, conditioning, and recovery.

I simply don't buy your 300+ pitch stuff either regarding Strasburg (btw- he was just another good pitcher in HS). Pitches are thrown "in anger". They are different from warm-ups, long toss, picks, etc.

Finally, I don't know ANY pitcher who would ask who is backing him up. It's none of his business.

ncball

1. Agreed, if the players being paid or he's playing collegiate baseball. At those levels I believe the coaching staff would follow your criteria of health, age, body-type etc... I have my doubts on whether or not a travel ball coach who calls up to see if the boy can pitch for him next week, would be up to speed on your pitch count criteria. So who makes the call? In that case the boy will tell the coach I'm good for 40,50 ,60 pitches.

2. My experience was to watch SS in HS. which is about 5 miles from my home. He would routinely throw for a solid hour before a start. In the bullpen he would throw 92-95 and settle in at 90-91 on the mound. You right though, he was just "good" in HS. A bad body, poor mound presence and few other things kept him from being drafted out of HS. But do the math 7 inns at an avg 17 pitches per inn (good pitcher) = 119 pitches + 5 warmups per(7)inn = 35. 35+ 119 = 155. The boy throws 25-35 max effort in the pen before a start so your now at 190 pitches. So yeah. I think if you threw for a solid hour before your start and pitched 7 inns. 300 pitches would be actually be on the low side.

3. In a travel venue my does. He's was guilted once into pitching a cg by a coach in a meaningless game. To what end? the $1.50 medallion for 1st. This is how it goes "Coach I'm good for 75 pitches will there be relief or a closer to finish if needed". "Yes or No I'm done at 75".

The question for you ncball. Based on your pitch count "recipe". If you deem your starter is good for 100 pitches and he's says I'm only good for for 60. Do you keep running him out there? Do you cut him? does he take one for the team? or do you listen?

Final thought. We've had a number of scouts pay a visit the past few months and without exception they've all made the same statement. "DO NOT LET A COACH ABUSE YOU!". Makes sense to me.

dswann-

1. My formula is based on playing on a reputable summer/fall development program- not a fly by night "travel-ball team". There, in effect, is one of the biggest problems. Kids jump around to different teams instead of settling in on a reputable program.

2. I don't buy the 92-95 with SS based on my friends who are scouts in socal telling me something different. Also, shame on the high school coach throwing him your equation of 119 pitches if that was the case (bet he stayed at 90 or so). That said, my contention is that 300 pitches versus 300 throws is entirely different. Much less stress when not throwing from a mound.

3. Regarding your number 3, I've seen more abuse at the high school level than the "travel ball" venue- as you call it. Two reasons- Summer and fall are for development (high school is about winning- pure and simple)and a quality summer team has many more quality pitchers to use as opposed to a high school who is limited to what they have. Are there exceptions on both sides? of course!

The answer to your final question is that I listen to my pitcher and also watch his results. If he starts to labor, he's done- period. Any good program does that- school or summer

To your final thought- They are correct. that goes to school and summer.

My whole point in starting this thread was to remind everyone that each player must take responsibility for his own health and well being. Not all coaches, even those on quality teams, cares or knows how to handle their pitchers with an eye toward their long term success and health. In that game I commented on, our starter threw 45 fastballs and changeups (3.2 innings, 7 k's and 1 bb), his reliever threw 41 fastballs and changeups over 1 2/3 innings and the young man who pitched the final 2 innings of the game threw 23 pitches, with only a couple breaking balls mixed in with his fastballs and changeups. We led the entire game, won 3-2, but who cares? This was a JANUARY game, just a chance to see how our JO team is shaping up and to get everyone some work in prior to the start of their high school season. We were far more intersted in seeing how some of our younger players were coming along than we were in winning these games, even though we certainly compete to win each game we play. Our final game, we stared all 15 year olds, and threw a few pitchers who didn't get a chance to throw earlier. We lost badly in that game, who cares? IT'S JANUARY! The kids who were in that game got a lesson how thin the difference is between a really good team, and one that is just average. They also got a first hand look at how far they'll have to come in order to be ready for the upcoming summer. That is what matters. Nobody will remember any of the game results in a couple months, but most of the coaches got a chance to see how their summer players are developing, and that was the reason to play in the first place. The players had a nice opportunity to prepare for high school tryouts.

My point is that nobody has any business throwing that many pitches in January, or at any time through the spring or summer if the pitcher aspires to play after graduating from high school.

ncball doesn't need any backing from me...but I have had two sons (pitchers) play in his program.

He practices what he preaches and that, among a number of other reasons, is why his program has had so much success in both winning and moving kids onto the next level.

On the general point of this thread...I just think its hard for a kid or a first-time parent to step in and that is why coaches need to understand the big picture in these things. Sadly, too many do not.

quote:

Originally posted by D1:
I think we should ignore TR's inappropriate remark.

Now where is that mirror, for YOU to look at?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Please excuse TRhit.........He tries....

BD, Did you lose you way?

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:

quote:

Originally posted by D1:
I think we should ignore TR's inappropriate remark.

Now where is that mirror, for YOU to look at?

Not sure of the point you are trying to make? Didn't know TR needed his hand held.

Let's say it out loud 3-times and see if it sounds right?

16U pitcher, 7-innings/120+ pitches, January Holiday tournament?
- Repeat above.
- Repeat again!

Nope, sorry, still sounds really dumb to me!
Now who is "ultimately" responsible for protecting that players arm?

If it's my son --- I am and we (son & I first with him approaching Coach, then that Coach & I will speak!) will soon be out of there it that is allowed to happen again! IMO; that wouldn't happen in any game for 16U!!!!!!!