Catch-22

First of all I took the comment to mean that you have to be "special" to play at that level, and in reality she probably makes a point.

In regard to CD's question, IMO, as players grow and "dream", the dream is not to play for Elite U, its to play professionally and many times where you land college wise is related to your skill level. However, That mentality has many Grey areas.....

1. More quality players than roster spots on top D1 teams
2. Geographical issues
3. Exposure
3. Academics
4. Costs
5. and the list goes on

Bottom line you cannot fit 10 lbs of quality players into a 5 lb bag of top D1 schools. IMO the huge majority of college players who do not play at those "elites" feel that they have just as good a chance to fulfill that "pro dream" at the school of their choice.

There again my line of thinking may be due to the fact our neck of the woods does not have elite programs to dream of, in my sons case his dream was not at a particular school, it was a dream of going somewhere he was wanted while still pursuing the ultimate MLB goal.

If it is really the player's dream and not the parent's then you do all you can to support it and have some backup plans just in case. The game will tell them eventually.

I think most baseball players entering high school have the dream of playing at a "top" D1 school. Over the next 4 years many people will let him know if that dream is possible.

So in those 3-4 years most kids are dreaming of the success and usually don't think about the failing part IMO. Once they get to college and see the reality of the competition and talent, then they might start to questions themselves and think about not making it. Maybe the biggest test many players will ever face. And maybe where many players start to think about another career.

CADad - Bingo. Yahtzee. Pass go, collect $200.

CD - I'll give you another perspective. What about the kid who wants to go professional in something other than baseball, loves baseball, but knows it is probably not in the cards to make a living at it long term. I think there are many out there that fit that description.

Another perspective---how about going to a D-1 that is last in their conference but plays in a great conference and plays a great out of conference schedule---the player will play sooner at such a school and still be seen because of the strength of schedule ---and get his degree

fenwaysouth- I'd say the vast majority of college players that I know are in that boat. Everyone would love to play professionally if given the opportunity, but most know that truth be told, like the NCAA commercial says... "Most of us will be going professional in something other than sports."

Throughout high school my dream schools were always Stanford and Vanderbilt. Great academics, great baseball, great reputations, etc. Vanderbilt, UConn and Notre Dame were the first schools to send me letters when I was a junior in high school. I tried to keep correspondence with everyone and desperately wanted to live my dream. As time moved on into the next year, however, the realizations came that...well...I wasn't going to be receiving an offer from these schools. I settled on the school I am at now and have absolutely no regrets in doing that. I've enjoyed every minute of the college experience, look forward to playing ball on the field to the best of my abilities, and look forward to obtaining a degree and moving on to whatever walks of life reality throws at me next. Baseball is a fun passion for me, but a well-rounded life experience makes a person that much more inclined to enjoy every aspect of what they are doing as well IMO.

Good points everyone.

TR - real good point. Playing against the best can be better than waiting your turn to play for the best.

fenwaysouth - that is a good take as well. There are many here who feel that way. I think CPLZ said it best - use baseball to leverage the most out of the college experience.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
First of all I took the comment to mean that you have to be "special" to play at that level, and in reality she probably makes a point.

That was not the intended reason for the comment and I am pretty sure, through discussion CD and others understand the comment.

I made that comment (it was in scholarship discussion) because some people equate top programs with big scholarships and since you mentioned it, the next step (pro) after college baseball. Decision to attend a larger D1 program should be thought out carefully, the dream school also has to be the right fit (more important than anything).

If your son hands you a list of dream schools are you going to make contact because it's been his dream or are you going to help him to set realistic goals so that when everyone else is committing your player is still waiting for last years 8 WS contenders to contact him what are you going to say to him? It's not always aobut talent either, how often do you hear parents say, they offered my son's teammate and I can't understand why. You know how many parents get mad at big colleges because their sons are not considered. You know how many players get to big programs and can't beleive they now sit more than they expected, or that now they really can't take the major they wanted because the program is just too time consuming, or they decided to take the coaches invite to walk on and when they got there 15 more where told the same thing (yes some big powerhouses still do that).


It's not necessary to go to the top programs and play good college baseball or move ahead. Most pro players are from juco, mid D1 programs and D2 and D3. Most do not come from powerhouse programs.

I agree playing against the best can be better than sitting the bench.

It is very normal to get to any program and question yourself (my son called a few times he wanted out). That's normal, what you want to do is make sure that he won't act upon it, and that the decision he made was thought through carefully and not signed on a whim because he dreamed too.

Reality is, it's not for everyone.

Nothing wrong with dreaming, just make sure the goals your sons set for themselves are realistic and that includes most important finding the "right" fit.

quote:

1. More quality players than roster spots on top D1 teams

rz,

Your #1 above is very true! I have tried to explain that so many times.

People need to understand the fine line between talented players. There are players that never make it to AA that have as much talent as those in the Major Leagues.

IMO, You could add "luck" to your list.

Note: I hate this avatar!

Nice post TPM; VERY WELL WRITTEN! It needs to be said for the sake of our members, and their upcoming life-changing decisions when choosing the "right fit".

I would rather play than sit at a school that has 1st round players lined up in front of me on the depth chart!

Many, many, players have never allowed themselves the opportunity to maximize exposure to scouts because a tunnel-vision dream to play for one school, or a school that already has a loaded roster. Euphoria has blocked the reality of the dream.

If you can play, they will find you no-matter where you're at "if" your on the field playing when they show up.

TPM, I'm glad we have recounciled our differences. I would like to continue to contribute here @ the #1 messageboard out here for those who need guidance. Blessings my friend.

Sincerely,
Fathertime71

(Edit 11/07/2010: Truce publically rejected in *draft forum/scout talk?* thread by TPM. Oh well!
Personal Attacks continue!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
People need to understand the fine line between talented players. There are players that never make it to AA that have as much talent as those in the Major Leagues.

Interesting.

I would like to point out to rz1 that Wisconsin is known for elite Division 3 schools in baseball and that is nothing to sneaze at. Not only is the D3 World Series held in Wisconsin, they have several powerhouses who compete for the title every year. My son has a teammate who was drafted as a junior from UW-Whitewater in 2009 and which is also known for producing Bob Wickman among others who have had fine big league careers.

If my son would not have received the one offer he was looking for (a small, modest offer btw), he would have been a D3 player. I have no doubts that what PG posted regarding the fine differences in talent between players is true.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I would like to point out to rz1 that Wisconsin is known for elite Division 3 schools in baseball and that is nothing to sneaze at

All this time I thought WI was only known for cheese, beer, and brats

Thanks for setting me straight CD

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:


CD - I'll give you another perspective. What about the kid who wants to go professional in something other than baseball, loves baseball, but knows it is probably not in the cards to make a living at it long term. I think there are many out there that fit that description.

Playing baseball for a living is a long shot at best. The student/athlete that uses baseball for the opportunity to play at a top academic school is perhaps the smartest of all. The top performers may still get the opportunity to play pro ball, yet still have something of significant value to fall back on. It doesn't mean "the dream" isn't there, it is just taking a realistic view of making that dream a reality.

I am friends with a Basketball Coach at a big-time nationally ranked program, who tells all of his players the following:

Whatever level you think you can play at, go one lower than that and you will give yourself the best chance for a great experience.

bsballfan,

Sounds like advice I would want a coach to not provide to my sons. Whatever level they think they can play at is where they should strive to get to. Settling for a "safe" experience should not be an option IMO.

.

If I had taken that advice the training wheels would never have come off my bike.




.

I get what you are saying, but here are two thoughts:

1. Most people in life and in sports overvalue their own abilities.

2. Most kids want to have a chance to play and produce on the field.

I agree with you CD, it is a "Catch-22" for most student-athletes. I think the majority of us are on the same page in regards to the process. In my own son's case he really didn't have a clear cut number one "Dream" school. His number one choice just happened to be a school that was paying the most attention throughout the summer. He was excited to be on their radar, as he had attended their camp, and would have loved to be part of their program. They never made an offer, and to my surprise, my son wasn't too concerned or hurt.

Bsbl Jr. took it in stride, kept plugging along, and eventually had a couple good games in front of a handful of schools that he'd been communicating with the past couple of months. He received an offer from a school that was on his list, although I doubt he was initially on theirs? After weighing all of his options as a family, Jr. accepted their offer based on the fact they had everything he wanted. He wanted to stay on the West Coast (preferably So Cal). We knew he would be admitted based on his Grades/SAT. It was a school that my wife and I felt we could afford, and at least willing to sacrifice a little to allow our son to succeed. So, for our family it really did come down to GEOGRAPHICAL ISSUES, ACADEMICS, EXPOSURE, COSTS, and quite frankly...a little LUCK.

Why wouldn't you set your goals as high as possible with everything you do? Why not take a shot at the highest level of play you possibly can if everything else is a FIT? Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's playing professionally, D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JC, or your local Men's/Women's League...I can tell you this, I'd never advise my kids to choose their goals one step down from his/her potential. If I ran my business like that I'd be in big trouble, JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
I am friends with a Basketball Coach at a big-time nationally ranked program, who tells all of his players the following:

Whatever level you think you can play at, go one lower than that and you will give yourself the best chance for a great experience.

I'll assume he isn't moonlighting as a motivational speaker.

.

"I'll assume he isn't moonlighting as a motivational speaker."

.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
I agree with you CD, it is a "Catch-22" for most student-athletes. I think the majority of us are on the same page in regards to the process. In my own son's case he really didn't have a clear cut number one "Dream" school. His number one choice just happened to be a school that was paying the most attention throughout the summer. He was excited to be on their radar, as he had attended their camp, and would have loved to be part of their program. They never made an offer, and to my surprise, my son wasn't too concerned or hurt.

Bsbl Jr. took it in stride, kept plugging along, and eventually had a couple good games in front of a handful of schools that he'd been communicating with the past couple of months. He received an offer from a school that was on his list, although I doubt he was initially on theirs? After weighing all of his options as a family, Jr. accepted their offer based on the fact they had everything he wanted. He wanted to stay on the West Coast (preferably So Cal). We knew he would be admitted based on his Grades/SAT. It was a school that my wife and I felt we could afford, and at least willing to sacrifice a little to allow our son to succeed. So, for our family it really did come down to GEOGRAPHICAL ISSUES, ACADEMICS, EXPOSURE, COSTS, and quite frankly...a little LUCK.

Why wouldn't you set your goals as high as possible with everything you do? Why not take a shot at the highest level of play you possibly can if everything else is a FIT? Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's playing professionally, D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JC, or your local Men's/Women's League...I can tell you this, I'd never advise my kids to choose their goals one step down from his/her potential. If I ran my business like that I'd be in big trouble, JMO.

Ok, let me try this again. What a kid really wants (ask a kid who is DONE playing college baseball and they'll agree) is to go to a good program, get a good degree, have a chance to play/compete, play with guys you enjoy playing with, enjoy the social aspect of college, and make life-long friends.

Too many times the HS kid (and parents) think that what they really want is to play for a school that will look great when it's released in the local paper.

I'm not saying go to that school where you can succeed and give half an effort, i'm saying that you should pick a school that will give you the opportunity to succeed.

You guys are taking this waaaaaaay to far out of context and I can assure you this guy who gives the advice has guys playing in the NBA/Final Four/etc nearly every year.

It's called perspective....walking on at LSU and not even traveling until your JR year (if every) is not neccesarily better than going to a smaller D1 or even a JUCO/D2 and getting a chance to compete and play.

After watching Professional football last night I think I see bsballfans point about lowering expectations.

If your dream is to play professional football and you are not in that "can't miss" group playing for the Cowboys may be an acceptable alternative

bsballfan,

Okay, I understand what you're saying, no worries...there are people out there that live in a fantasy world. I still believe in allowing the kid to have a dream, because eventually the game will dictate how far that dream can take him. That goes with most things in life...