Catcher charged with error

Yep.  SB for runner going from 1st to 2nd, E for throw into outfield allowing runner to advance home. 

If base does not get covered and no throw steal is still charged to catcher?

Yes.

I would caveat a little. Did the runner from third take off as soon as the ball was thrown? If so I would consider giving him a SB. If the runner stealing second advances to third or the runner at third waited until the throw was wild, somebody gets an error.

 

I have seen this situation scored an error on the MIF who doesn't cover his base, but only once in my 38 years of scoring and only after the game when the coach (D-1 college level) told the scorekeeper who was responsible for the ordinary effort play not being made (2B didn't cover). I don't think this particular D-1 coach and this particular 2B were best friends.

 

Without this knowledge, its E-2.

If, in the scorers judgement, the runner was stealing home anyway, then yes, give him the SB and only an error if the trailing runner advances on the throw into the outfield. I agree JMoff. However, the catcher then has 2 SBs credited against him. Pick your evil.

In the second scenario, that one situation in 38 years does not make it a rule. Haha. I would say the score keeper was bullied into changing the book. By definition, you can't score an error on a fielder for making a mental mistake and that is what the fielder did. It's unfortunate, but the error goes to the catcher if the runner advances a base AND the runner gets credited with a SB (and consequently catcher gets a base stolen against him).

Try looking at it this way. Say there was only a runner on 1^st and the same thing happened. It would take a pretty sorry SK to pop the catcher, even if the ball flew into the CF’s  hands. So no matter what happens, there’s no E because of the runner on 1^st.

 

The only question in my mind is whether the runner on 3^rd took off because of the errant throw. That’s pretty much a timing judgment, and a lot depends on how closely the SK was paying attention to the runner on 3^rd in relation to the other things going on. To be honest, a lot would depend on where the SK was sitting.

 

If s/he was in the 1^st base dugout, its pretty tough to be able to watch that runner on 3^rd very closely and still pay close attention to where the ball was. If s/he was sitting in the 3^rd base dugout, it would certainly be a lot easier to make the determination in this particular situation. If the SK was behind the backstop, where I always try to sit, a lot depends on where his/her attention is most focused.

 

Most experienced SKs will try to look at all the runners to see what they’re doing, even if its just a glance. But its really difficult, and not a good idea, to change focus when there’s a play going on like this one. So, if the SK is positive the runner on 3^rd had stopped or had no intention of trying to steal home, then scores only because the throw was bad, s/he should score an error. But, if s/he wasn’t paying close attention or couldn’t be pretty sure, s/he should just let it go and score the double steal.

 

But for sure, the last thing the SK should take into consideration is what anyone on the field was yelling or telling each other.

SK was sitting in upper box (stadium style) behind plate.  I am not sure if I am wording this correctly.  Runner on first was stealing.  Runner on 3rd was not.  Throw was not wild or thrown into outfield it hit the bag on a fly.  No one covered 2nd. After it rolled to outfield 3rd scored.

I think we all understand the play. I just did a tour of section 10 of the OBR, which I usually do before the season starts, but haven't this year since my boy is in college (first start tomorrow afternoon) and my daughter plays softball, which is "different". The best application I can find is:

Rule 10.12(a)(7) Comment: The official scorer shall apply this rule even when it appears to be aninjustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. For example, the official scorer shall charge an error to an outfielder whose accurate throw to second base hits the base and caroms back into the outfield, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance, because every base advanced by a runner must be accounted

for.

 

Not an exact match but close.

 

By saying I'd seen it once in 38 years, I was basically saying your SOL unless the head coach is an a*hole and has it out for the second baseman. I wasn't suggesting it was right.

 

I give the runner from third the SB if he leaves on the throw (time play) but not if he sees the ball roll into center (E-2). Just me.

Unless the throw to the outfield allowed the runner to advance to 3rd.  Then it would be SB and an E.

Originally Posted by bballman:

Unless the throw to the outfield allowed the runner to advance to 3rd.  Then it would be SB and an E.

 

That’s not the same thing. In the original example the runner didn’t go to 3^rd. But, if the runner did move on to 3^rd, you’re correct.

Originally Posted by JMoff:

…I give the runner from third the SB if he leaves on the throw (time play) but not if he sees the ball roll into center (E-2). Just me.

 

There’s where more problems come in than anything else. The timing is the determining factor, and everything hinges on how closely the SK is watching that timing. What I TRY to do, is watch runners with open bases in front of them, until just before the pitch is released. Unfortunately though, I’m not perfect and often don’t/can’t do that, and I doubt anyone else can either. Having instant replay would make things a lot easier, but how many amateur SKs have that?

 

I agree, it is hard. What I do on the first and third play is to look at third when the throw goes to second to see what that runner is doing. Then I look back in time to see the play at second, which is going to be safe / out SB / CS or cut off across the diamond.

 

If I saw the throw go into center and I didn't see the runner moving by the time I glanced back to second for the play, he doesn't get the SB.

 

If he wasn't going in the first place, but everything is played clean and he breaks late but is still safe (and runner at second was safe), I credit a stolen base for both.

 

Here's one, above play with no outs, R1 stealing second safely. On the throw, R3 attempts to steal home, but is thrown out. Does R1 get credit for a steal? I say no because of 10.07 D

Originally Posted by JMoff: … Here's one, above play with no outs, R1 stealing second safely. On the throw, R3 attempts to steal home, but is thrown out. Does R1 get credit for a steal? I say no because of 10.07 D

 

I ‘m assuming you’re talking about 10.07(d). Using that rule literally, I agree.