Catcher Faking Throw

quote:

The runner does not make a circle. He simply plants and crosses back over into fair territory while keeping his hips parallel to the base line...

It is proven by linebackers and guards in basketball. The move you want to teach them is slower than straight to the bag.

You are over coaching. Spend more time with their attention span and expecting a pass ball. It's a better investment.

quote:

Originally posted by Teacherman:
...If the runner has been taught down in foul and back in fair, we're not likely to throw...

Then the method works. Yes?

The cross over into fair territory is only 1 step (maybe 2-3 feet). If my runner gets picked, it isn't because he was slower due to this move.

Teaching this takes maybe 15 minutes every 2 weeks. It is pretty darn easy to grasp. My 11u team picked it up in 2 sessions. Not hard.

It isn't overcoaching. If my runner can get an extra step or 2 for a lead and reduce his chance of getting picked, then we will score on groundballs more than our opponents. I like our odds in this.

The only thing I know about catchers, is that they always put down the wrong fingers for me.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

The cross over into fair territory is only 1 step (maybe 2-3 feet). If my runner gets picked, it isn't because he was slower due to this move.

You've got to be kidding. How many runners are out by more than 1 step? If my pitcher can save me 1 runners step on a steal, I'll throw him out.

1 step is HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, if returning in fair discourages the throw, I don't want to do it.

I want to draw the throw.

interesting discussion - I guess you should go with whatever works for you -

anyway, out here they put the back of the batters box about 3' behind the plate, which puts my catcher's feet 4 or 5+ back at the time of the throw - the "back in fair" runner opens the throwing lane up nicely for my catcher -
tho, my 3b would just adjust his target outside of the "runner's screen" on any pick-off throw situation regardless of runners path back to the base -
and my catcher will throw to the target - even if he has to anticipate a bit, it'll not be at the runner's back

Teach,

The 1 step comment was made to explain it to you since you made it sound like the runners were making a big circle. They are not. It is only 1 step from foul territory back into fair territory.

I agree that many runners get thrown out by 1 step but by crossing into fair territory, you are not "giving up" 1 step.

I am glad your method works for you. Mine works for me.

Runners are almost always diving back to third on a pick from the catcher....often the catcher must throw directly into the line of the runner, but the dive can prevent him from being hit by the ball......though he may be picked.

quote:

Yeah, go ahead and stand in fair territory and get hit by a line drive.

Teach, Where did this come from? I believe everyone is in agreement that you don't stand in fair territory when the ball could be hit.

I thought it was pretty elementary that you take away the throwing lane whenever possible.

When a catcher fields a bunt or drops a third strike, it's preferable for them to position themselves where they won't hit the base runner.

When a first baseman throws down to second to throw out a picked off runner, it's an easy throw unless the runner is in the throwing lane.

Good base runners make these throws difficult. (Of course a runner to first still has to stay in their running lane so don't bother bringing this up)

Bad base runners allow easy throw for defenders.


As far as rounding and returning, who teaches this?

Teach do you teach your runners to keep their eye on the catcher as they return to the bag unless they see the catcher getting ready to throw or do you teach them to automatically turn their back to the ball and head back in foul territory?

With all your catching experience, did you prefer to throw to third with an unobstructed view or did you prefer when a base runner was in the way of the ball?

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
Runners are almost always diving back to third on a pick from the catcher....often the catcher must throw directly into the line of the runner, but the dive can prevent him from being hit by the ball......though he may be picked.

Finally, someone with experience to understand the reality versus the "book theory".

If he's not diving, why are you throwing?????

Originally posted by SBK:
"Yeah, go ahead and stand in fair territory and get hit by a line drive."

Teach, Where did this come from?

Oh, I don't know.....maybe a quote in your previous post, something to the effect of......"Draw a line from where the catcher is to 3rd base. If you end up on the line or in fair territory, so be it.

I thought it was pretty elementary that you take away the throwing lane whenever possible.

If you can take away a throwing land while diving back to third, more power to you.

When a catcher fields a bunt or drops a third strike, it's preferable for them to position themselves where they won't hit the base runner.

Another piece of over coaching.....kids yelling "inside" or "outside". Unnecessary especially since most can't control inside from "in the base line" or outside from "in the base line". Another example of how reality differs from book

When a first baseman throws down to second to throw out a picked off runner, it's an easy throw unless the runner is in the throwing lane.

And, I guarantee I can make the throw 98 out of a 100 from either catcher to third or catcher to first or first to second, NOT CONCERN MYSELF WITH THE RUNNER, and make the play every time. Let the body work. Don't overcoach to clog the mind.

Bad base runners allow easy throw for defenders.

Good baserunners take as straight a path to the base as the play allows and seldom concern themselves with the thrown ball


As far as rounding and returning, who teaches this?

Show me how you go down in foul and back in fair without rounding it off. Redbird admits 1 step into fair territory. That step is costly With a good catcher you're in trouble. Remember, we only throw when napping or taunting occurs.

Teach do you teach your runners to keep their eye on the catcher as they return to the bag ...

My players are taught to have their eye on the baseball at all times. We expect the pass ball. We have our eye on it and get a great jump on every ball to the screen. This also puts us in great position to react to the batted ball.

With all your catching experience, did you prefer to throw to third with an unobstructed view or did you prefer when a base runner was in the way of the ball?

I've already answered this. The runner's return to 3rd is of no importance when we decide to throw. In fact, I prefer a right handed batter to hold his ground to possilbly block his runner's view. We know before the pitch that we are throwing. We've determined the likelyhood of the runner being too far off by his actions on the previous pitches. We catch and throw. The odds have been weighed. NO CONSIDERATION IS GIVEN TO THE RUNNER. HE WILL BE DIVING.

quote:

do you teach your runners to keep their eye on the catcher as they return to the bag

my runners would go back to only to their primary lead watching the BALL until the pitcher has it on/near the rubber - then return to the bag, get their signs & get off to their lead again (unless we're trying to draw a throw)

and c'mon, if he's in his dive as the throw starts - ya already missed your pick-off attempt

quote:

Oh, I don't know.....maybe a quote in your previous post, something to the effect of......"Draw a line from where the catcher is to 3rd base. If you end up on the line or in fair territory, so be it.

This has to do with the runner's return to third base. A previous post I wrote return on the "line" and someone corrected me and said runners should return in fair territory. Therefore, I wrote more accurately, "Draw a line from where the catcher is to 3rd base. If you end up on the line or in fair territory, so be it.

I already mentioned in the initial post on this subject that I thought all base runners led off in foul.

I would have thought that everyone here knows enough about baseball to make sure their runners lead off in foul.

Is that also over coaching by telling them to lead off in foul or would that 5 minutes be better spent in bp?

Teach, you write …… “Good baserunners take as straight a path to the base as the play allows and seldom concern themselves with the thrown ball”

You say seldom, so when are these seldom times that you concede that base runners should not take a straight path to a base during a play on them? ….. Maybe to get in the path of a thrown ball instead of letting a catcher have an unobstructed throw to third?


You write “My players are taught to have their eye on the baseball at all times”.

Do you really mean this? Or do you mean as much as possible?

Is this really this complicated? Last time I looked third base was in fair territory. I believe that if you want to return to the base you might start by taking a straight line to the base which is where....fair territory. I have never seen a team run down in foul and back in foul where there is no base.

...smells like a dead cat in here. 1969 "Firesign Theatre"

quote:

Originally posted by SBK:
Teach, you write …… “Good baserunners take as straight a path to the base as the play allows and seldom concern themselves with the thrown ball”

You say seldom, so when are these seldom times that you concede that base runners should not take a straight path to a base during a play on them?

Uh, more like, do I hook slide left or right to make the tag more difficult. Throw coming from left field to 3rd base.......I'll probably slide on the home plate side of third as compared to the leftfield side.

quote:

Originally posted by SBK...Is that also over coaching by telling them to lead off in foul or would that 5 minutes be better spent in bp?

That's a legitimate concern mainly due to the line drive and nothing to do with how to go back to the base.

If you want to add a step to your runners' return, go right ahead.

quote:

...and c'mon, if he's in his dive as the throw starts - ya already missed your pick-off attempt

I don't know who this is addressed to but I said nothing about "if he's in his dive as the throw starts".

The decision to throw was decided before the pitch. Whether it is attempted is up to the catcher, the pitch he gets to handle etc etc. The throw is made, hopefully, as the runner is frozen as he realizes what's happening. He will be standing at that time but diving shortly thereafter. As he dives he clears a path for the ball. Yes, the ball can still hit him, as it could hit the base, the ground, or go into left field. Those are not important. We've decided to take the risk. An educated guess that we can have success if we execute. Now, execute. Throw the ball directly at the base every time no matter the runners location.

These discussions are interesting, but doesn’t everyone sometimes wonder about what if anything is being accomplished?

There are several good baseball people who have experience... arguing over some very basic stuff. An objective person could find some good points in every ones comments here.

I wonder about those reading this stuff who are trying to learn rather than teach. Seems like on a forum called “Coaching Tips” there should be more agreement than what usually takes place here.

I will say this… When I want to find out if a player truly understands baseball and has a feel for the game… I watch him closely when he’s a runner at 3B.

I believe it’s the most revealing spot on the field. It’s absolutely amazing how many young players either haven’t learned or just don’t have what it takes. I’m talking about fundamentals, instincts, reactions, common sense, knowledge, intelligence, understanding situations, etc. etc. etc. If you see a runner on 3B a few times, watch closely and you'll be able to determine if he is a real baseball player or if he just plays baseball.

You might not know who has the best tools or athletic ability or even who's the best prospect. But you can figure out who the best true baseball players are by watching them when they're a runner on 3B. I still do it to this day.

PG... So educate all the poor misguided coaches.

What are all the things you look for?

Texan,

I understand PG is busy today with the Predraft showcase so allow me to add one in the meantime.

A sure sign of a poorly coached and disciplined team is a team whose baserunners who are too lazy to return to their base to receive signs between pitches.

Gets his lead in foul comes back in fair. Stops his secondary when the ball is caught and is ready to advance if its not. Is in a tag posistion with less than two outs on a fly ball. Looks at the 3b coach after every pitch. Keeps his eyes on the pitcher at all times once he gets his sign. Never steps off the bag untill the pitcher toes the rubber. Extends his secondary lead on his own when he reads curveball in the dirt out of the pitchers hand. Busts back after every pitch. These are some of the things I look for.

Well done Coach May.

It amazes me how few coaches demand that their players be on the base until the pitcher toes the rubber, between pitches. Seems pretty basic and a dead give away of how well a team is coached.

You can tell a team is probably coached well if they automatically head back to third to tag up on a fly ball with less than 2 outs, even if the ball eventually ends up over the fence or is a line shot to the gaps.

Not to dwell on the negatives but that might be the easiest way to explain.

Here are just some of the negatives that I look for.

- Does not expect Passed Ball/Wild Pitch, gets surprised
- Does not return to the base properly
- Does not see the catcher throw and pitcher catch the ball, when no play is being made
- Does not read the ball off the bat
- Does not check defensive positioning
- Does not tag on sure foul balls
- Does not react quickly and correctly in tag situations
- Does not position correctly on tag
- Does not react correctly to line drives
- Does not break to the plate on sure double play balls
- Does not end up with right foot down as pitch enters hitting area
- Does not react correctly according to number of outs
- Does not react correctly according to the score
- Does not show anticipation according to the pitch and the situation
- Does not react towards the plate when pitcher makes move on runner at 1B
- And many other things

Tell tale signs that a runner is not a natural player!

Runner at 1st & 3rd, Pitcher makes pickoff attempt at 1st base. I would say more than half of all high school players at 3B will react and move back towards 3B when the pitcher makes his move. Watch this for yourself, I’ve been watching it for years. If you “break” (not necessarily “go”) on the pickoff attempt, two things happen… 1. The First Baseman sees this in the background and is less likely to apply the tag quickly. 2. If the ball goes off the first basemans glove, even a fairly short distance, the runner will score without a play at the plate. In a one run game with 2 outs, it’s a crying shame when the runner at 3B is reacting back to the bag on the pickoff at 1B.

This of course can be coached, but the real natural player does not have to be taught this. The runner at 3B who is a natural player also does not need to be taught the following.

Reacting/attempting to score on Wild Pitch/Passed Ball. Depending on the situation! The situation can change everything! One run differentials are obviously different than 6 run differentials. Number of outs, the count, who the hitter is, how the pitcher is throwing, etc. can change a decision.

On 3B with 1 out: 3B runner should only attempt to score if it is impossible for a play to be made.

On 3B with 2 outs: 3B runner should attempt to score if he is positive he will be safe.

On 3B with 2 outs: 3B runner should be in the starting blocks reacting forward on all pitches read down in the dirt. He should be ready and expect to score on any passed ball/wild pitch. Nothing worse than a runner getting thrown out at the plate in this situation because he was surprised and got a late break.

Note: I have read some comments about the coach sending him or not sending him. That should never happen! Coaches can only tell the runner the situation and give instructions before the play. Once the passed ball/wild pitch happens the player must react and execute. If he needs the coach in these situations, he is not a natural instinctive baseball player. Besides he will sometimes be late!

Question: 1st inning... You're on 3B and there is a runner on 1B with 0 or 1 out. ground ball is hit right back to the pitcher. What do you do with 1 out? With 0 outs? If anyone cares to answer, this could create a good discussion.

I believe there are certain players who have such a great feel for the game that they “correctly feel” the right thing to do at the right time. Often this happens too quickly to actually think it all over. ie. Freezing on a line drive when on 3B.

Unfortunately, as much as I love these “real” baseball players, it’s sometimes not enough. We seem to live in a “tools” world. I think many of these “true” players end up coaching. Every once in awhile, you see the guy with outstanding tools and the great “feel” for the game. These guys are extra special in my book!

PG,

Right on. Thanks for taking the time!

I'm going to print it out and share it with my boys. It's everything they've been taught to do but it sure is nice for them to hear it again from another credible source.

Super stuff PG. I totally agree with you. Now for your question which I am sure will generate alot of responses here I go.

Runner on 3b 0 or 1 out ground ball right back to the pitcher.

What would you rather have runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs or 1 out, or runner at third with 2 outs our out of the inning.

Is the infield in double play depth or are they up to prevent the runner from scoring from third checking him and taking the out at first if he doesnt break?

Lets take this scenario. Runner at 3b and runner at 1b 0 outs. We go on contact if the infield is back. If they go home and nail our runner we have 1st and second and one out. If they turn two we score the run. If they dont get our guy at first on the double play we score a run and have a guy at first base with one out and one in the book.

runner at 3b and runner at 1b 0 outs. If the infield is up they are not going to turn two on us. The runner at first will take second base and round it hard. The runner at 3b will stop and break back to third keeping his eyes on the ball. When the pitcher turns to throw to first base he lengthens his lead so he can score on the botched throw and the runner going to second is ready to take 3b. We end up with runners at 3b 2b and 2 outs worse case scenario.



Runner at 3b and runner at 1b 1 out. If the infield is up they are not going to turn a double play on us. Runner at 1b takes second and rounds the bag hard. Runner at third base stops and is ready to break back to third. When the pitcher turns to throw to first for the out we lengthen our lead and are ready to score if the throw is botched and the runner rounding second is ready to take third.

runner at 1b runner at 3b 1 out infield is back. Score try to draw the throw to the plate. Break on contact. Prevent the double play keep the inning alive. If they get you at the dish we are still hitting with a runner at 1b and 2b.

If for some reason they have the infield up and the ball is hit back to the pitcher and he wheels to second base to try and turn the double play score as soon as he throws to second base. Its doubtfull that the mif can get to the bag in time to get the force if the runner at first has a good secondary lead and breaks hard on contact seeing it on the ground. Even if they get the force at 2b the runner should reach safely before he can set his feet and make a strong throw to first. Situation in the game where the defense is posistioned the speed of the runners the quality of the defensive players etc etc all come into play here. Players should understand all of this and the coach as well. Whats the score , who is on deck , what inning is it , how good is the pitcher , what kind of arm does the mif have all are factors. JMO

CoachMay,

I should have been more exact in the description. I did say 1st inning, but took it for granted the infield would play DP.

Anyway, good answer. The worst thing that can happen is the duoble play and the runner still at 3B. Actually I've seen the runner wait and break too late and turn it into a 1-6-2 DP leaving 2 outs and a runner at 1B.

Here's another pet peeve.

Another pet peeve is the 3B runner getting so far down the line that he can’t score on a short passed ball/wild pitch because he must immediately react back to 3B.

Sometimes this is done for various purposes, but if I see it for no reason or in the wrong situation it just shows lack of knowledge.

I agree again. I want them planting the right foot as the ball is entering the mitt. As soon as they see the ball kick away or missed altogether they and I repeat they must make the decision to go or break back. What I hate to see is kids breaking back before the ball is caught and then realizing that the ball has gotten away but because they have already broke back to third they can not score. Same thing with runners at first and second. Working secondary leads is hard work and takes effort and concentration. Kids that dont work hard on the bases are not in a posistion to make it pay off. There is alot more to running the bases than people think. It is a huge part of the game. It can shrink the infield and open up hitting lanes and it can put tremendous pressure on the defense.

All you coaches will agree. Something happens nearly each and every game, running the bases, that has a direct impact on winning or losing.

Baserunning is probably the least worked on, important thing in baseball. We see lots of kids every year that don't know how to run the bases. Some of them are high profile prospects, too.

Here in Quebec we don't fake throw... we think it's not very good for the arm and any good runner will wait to see the ball left the hand of the catcher to run at plate. More often I throw directly to the third base during a first and third to create a surprise to the runner.We have three different play for the first and third and they depend of the game situation... the fake throw is just a risk of error like if you drop the ball during the fake or if you're doing to fast to throw third base and you put it in the outfield... that's my point of view and the point of view of a lot of coaches...

Francis Cossette

"the easiest thing to do is find excuses but the thoughest is find the way to win..."

A bit lower level but during our Pony game yesterday I finally had a good baserunner at third who's just been with the team for 3 games. He went well down the baseline on the previous pitch and I saw the catcher and 3b give each other a look. I just told him to get a good jump and keep going when the catcher threw (80' bases). He scored easily. We've also had two straight games where aggressive slides into second have prevented double plays and resulted in runs possibly giving us wins in both games. Of course, being 14yo each of these players has also had a blunder on the bases. One stepped off second while the SS was holding the ball, and it wasn't even the hidden ball trick. The other fell for the fake to third, throw to first possibly causing us a win, as his twin brother was thrown out at the plate due to a poor slide. Another has gotten caught between the bases twice on missed bunt attempts with no steal sign being given. He picked up the bunt sign and over reacted. He made a great slide at second the most recent time and probably got his hand under the tag but no umpire was going to give him that one. Needless to say but a couple of them are primarily pitchers.

I am not a coach but i have seen on many occasions that this play work 7 out of 10 times: As the runner takes off to 2nd base, the short-stop covers 2nd(like he should), the catcher throws the ball like he would if he was trying to get the runner out at 2nd, then the 2nd baseman jumps in front of the ball while still in the air, catches it and throws it to home, and now u got the runner at 3rd in a pickle. If your team completes this to perfection, it will be hard to get out of.

Sorry Joeken But we're talking about a faking throw at second not a trick play with a throw at second! I know that what you're talking is a good play but not a fake! We have this play and when the runner don't go to the plate we take the guy on second base...