Ok first of all I'm talking specifically about who should call pitches. I'm not talking about dictators or anything like that - specifically about calling pitches.
In this case you should criticize when it directly affects you. If the coach is calling the pitches doesn't affect parents / fans even if you have a son on the team. I believe parents are part of the team and have a say in certain matters but this isn't one of them. So in this regard only and nothing else a parent / fan shouldn't criticize just because they don't agree with it.
To everyone - do you realize that there are some MLB teams who call pitches from the dugout? I guess those guys need to relax as well. I mean if high school kids can do it without ever being trained in it can call pitches surely a professional catcher can.
This is a coaches forum coach. Nobody ever said they should be calling pitches without having been trained how to do it.
When the coach is calling the pitches and the hitters are hitting ropes, I have never seen a coach admit he made a "bad call". When the catcher does it, I have seen coaches light him up at the dugout steps.
I'm not saying you do it. I'm saying that's what I have seen. And instead of saying "Man, that was a bad call on my part!" They blame the pitcher. Or in some cases the catcher.
I never called pitches at any level. What I did was talk about a game plan with the dangerous guys. I might remind them if they looked for help. And then we make adjustments during the game as needed. "Hey stud, let's pitch that 3 guy down and away and see what happens." or "Instead of burying that 0-2, let's climb the ladder, looks like the FB has a little gas on it today." And my favorite "What'd you call? Well let's try something else next time, that wasn't the result we were looking for there."
Another thing I REALLY love is the coach asking the scorekeeper "What'd this guy do last time?" "Double down the 3rd base line." "Hey Bobby! BOBBY! He came to you last time!" And just about the time the 3B looks and goes "Huh?" The ball crosses the dirt. I have watched them do it for every hitter every inning all game long. Lovely,
When the coach is calling the pitches and the hitters are hitting ropes, I have never seen a coach admit he made a "bad call". When the catcher does it, I have seen coaches light him up at the dugout steps.
I'm not saying you do it. I'm saying that's what I have seen. And instead of saying "Man, that was a bad call on my part!" They blame the pitcher. Or in some cases the catcher.
I never called pitches at any level. What I did was talk about a game plan with the dangerous guys. I might remind them if they looked for help. And then we make adjustments during the game as needed. "Hey stud, let's pitch that 3 guy down and away and see what happens." or "Instead of burying that 0-2, let's climb the ladder, looks like the FB has a little gas on it today." And my favorite "What'd you call? Well let's try something else next time, that wasn't the result we were looking for there."
Another thing I REALLY love is the coach asking the scorekeeper "What'd this guy do last time?" "Double down the 3rd base line." "Hey Bobby! BOBBY! He came to you last time!" And just about the time the 3B looks and goes "Huh?" The ball crosses the dirt. I have watched them do it for every hitter every inning all game long. Lovely,
quote:I mean if high school kids can do it without ever being trained in it can call pitches surely a professional catcher can.
What training do coaches get in it?
I'm done here. There's no point in adding anything else.
Nice talking to you. Have a good night.
First off this is JUST my lowly opinion.
I think many coaches try to have too much control on the field and of the game.
I rarely call pitches. I’d say I average calling one pitch an inning if that. Probably less that to be honest.
I was a pitcher. I want my catcher AND pitcher to be thinking.
I’m surprised no one in this discussion (unless I missed it ) brought up the pitcher side of the ‘calling pitches equation’. He’s supposed to be thinking just as much as the catcher.
In fact I have no problem with my pitcher waving me or my catcher off. It means the pitcher is actually thinking and not just getting a sign and throwing a pitch.
My only rule is that the pitcher must justify his reasoning, EVEN if it doesn’t work, I want to know what he was thinking when he wanted to throw a different pitch.
Of course I use mistake pitches, and good pitches, or mistakes that ended up doing well, as teaching points. Personally I think players learn better by seeing the results of good AND bad decisions.
Again, this is just my lowly opinion, but I think the environment for many players these days is way too restricted.
I like my fielders calling defensive plays. I like them knowing what is going on and getting ACTIVELY involved in the decision making process. That’s what players are supposed to do.
I think many coaches try to have too much control on the field and of the game.
I rarely call pitches. I’d say I average calling one pitch an inning if that. Probably less that to be honest.
I was a pitcher. I want my catcher AND pitcher to be thinking.
I’m surprised no one in this discussion (unless I missed it ) brought up the pitcher side of the ‘calling pitches equation’. He’s supposed to be thinking just as much as the catcher.
In fact I have no problem with my pitcher waving me or my catcher off. It means the pitcher is actually thinking and not just getting a sign and throwing a pitch.
My only rule is that the pitcher must justify his reasoning, EVEN if it doesn’t work, I want to know what he was thinking when he wanted to throw a different pitch.
Of course I use mistake pitches, and good pitches, or mistakes that ended up doing well, as teaching points. Personally I think players learn better by seeing the results of good AND bad decisions.
Again, this is just my lowly opinion, but I think the environment for many players these days is way too restricted.
I like my fielders calling defensive plays. I like them knowing what is going on and getting ACTIVELY involved in the decision making process. That’s what players are supposed to do.
ctandc, good point. I was self taught, nver really had a catching coach. What made it easier for me was that I was a pitch and catcher. I like a pitcher that is passionate about the game and is confident in what he wants to throw. I have taught my catchers to be , to say it nicely, more of a "handler" when it comes to pitchers. They must learnt o build a ggod relationship with their pitching staff and get the pitchers to learn to trust them. Someone said it in an earlier post. The catcher is the most likely one to be in tune with how a particular pitcher is working that day. I have seen a lot of time where a coach will call a situational pitch but the catcher knows that it is not going to work but calls what the coach wants. I just have not seen a lot of catchers that take that kind of control and I thinks its because they were never allowed to call the shots so to speak.
Very nice post ctandc.
Here’s a little side view that I don’t think has been mentioned. The summer before my boy entered HS, he got his 1st pitching lesson. Every week we’d head over to the facility he used, and every week he’d do what most kids do at paid for pitching lessons. He pitched, he was critiqued, he was questioned about various things, and he was told how to handle many many different situations. IOW, he was “schooled”, and along with his education, mine improved as well.
But what he always found frustrating was, his HS coaches refused to let him use that schooling. He still did very well, but as good as he did, when summertime came and he played on teams with coaches who allowed the catchers to call the games, and gave pitchers the freedom to shake anything anytime, he did “better” and against much “better” competition.
Granted, not every kid is going to have the same kind of success, but that should be part of the process. The ones who “get it” will advance a bit faster, and that’s the way it should be IMO. When a coach decides one way fits all by locking the catchers out of the equation, it stymies growth.
One last thing. Of all the things people use to bolster their side of a baseball argument like this one, there’s one that just won’t float. Comparing what’s done at the ML level to what’s done at any level below is the strawman of all strawman arguments. There’s nothing done at any level below it that compares what’s done at the ML level.
This argument is a perfect example. What the coaches in the dugout have access to as far as information goes that might impact what takes place on the field, is lightyears ahead of what coaches below that have. Heck, I’d venture a guess that many ML teams spend as much or more on gathering, interpreting, and presenting data, than the biggest DI colleges spend on their entire baseball program, so even mentioning HS or below in the same breath, is more ludicrous than a fantasy.
It would be the same thing as saying that since ML players drink booze and chew, that’s what Little Leaguers should be allowed to do as well.
Here’s a little side view that I don’t think has been mentioned. The summer before my boy entered HS, he got his 1st pitching lesson. Every week we’d head over to the facility he used, and every week he’d do what most kids do at paid for pitching lessons. He pitched, he was critiqued, he was questioned about various things, and he was told how to handle many many different situations. IOW, he was “schooled”, and along with his education, mine improved as well.
But what he always found frustrating was, his HS coaches refused to let him use that schooling. He still did very well, but as good as he did, when summertime came and he played on teams with coaches who allowed the catchers to call the games, and gave pitchers the freedom to shake anything anytime, he did “better” and against much “better” competition.
Granted, not every kid is going to have the same kind of success, but that should be part of the process. The ones who “get it” will advance a bit faster, and that’s the way it should be IMO. When a coach decides one way fits all by locking the catchers out of the equation, it stymies growth.
One last thing. Of all the things people use to bolster their side of a baseball argument like this one, there’s one that just won’t float. Comparing what’s done at the ML level to what’s done at any level below is the strawman of all strawman arguments. There’s nothing done at any level below it that compares what’s done at the ML level.
This argument is a perfect example. What the coaches in the dugout have access to as far as information goes that might impact what takes place on the field, is lightyears ahead of what coaches below that have. Heck, I’d venture a guess that many ML teams spend as much or more on gathering, interpreting, and presenting data, than the biggest DI colleges spend on their entire baseball program, so even mentioning HS or below in the same breath, is more ludicrous than a fantasy.
It would be the same thing as saying that since ML players drink booze and chew, that’s what Little Leaguers should be allowed to do as well.
quote:Originally posted by ctandc:
First off this is JUST my lowly opinion.
I think many coaches try to have too much control on the field and of the game.
I rarely call pitches. I’d say I average calling one pitch an inning if that. Probably less that to be honest.
I was a pitcher. I want my catcher AND pitcher to be thinking.
I’m surprised no one in this discussion (unless I missed it ) brought up the pitcher side of the ‘calling pitches equation’. He’s supposed to be thinking just as much as the catcher.
In fact I have no problem with my pitcher waving me or my catcher off. It means the pitcher is actually thinking and not just getting a sign and throwing a pitch.
My only rule is that the pitcher must justify his reasoning, EVEN if it doesn’t work, I want to know what he was thinking when he wanted to throw a different pitch.
Of course I use mistake pitches, and good pitches, or mistakes that ended up doing well, as teaching points. Personally I think players learn better by seeing the results of good AND bad decisions.
Again, this is just my lowly opinion, but I think the environment for many players these days is way too restricted.
I like my fielders calling defensive plays. I like them knowing what is going on and getting ACTIVELY involved in the decision making process. That’s what players are supposed to do.
I coach a HS team, and a summer team. In HS baseball, I call every pitch. In summer baseball, I never call a pitch.
I call pitches in the Spring for various reasons. One, we position our defense off our pitching sequences. An example: our 2B is very strong defensively and has a ton of range. Our pitching staff commands the fastball well. The hitter uses the opposite field often. With nobody on base, we go ahead and pitch to the "hitter's strength" to try and get a quick out.
I don't want the pitcher having to think about all of that. We give every one of our players a scouting report on the other team the day before the game, and it details how we attack hitters, etc. So they know the overall plan. But during the game, we want them to focus on execution, and we do the thinking.
Secondly, there is just more pressure in a HS season than there is in a summer season. Nobody really cares about wins and losses in the summer, so mistakes are easy to allow, and made into a teaching moment. In the Spring, that is tougher.
In the summer, we allow our catchers and pitchers to call all pitches. This allows the pitchers/catchers to think, set up hitters, etc. It also helps prepare them for college. Furthermore, if a catcher starts to pick up on little things (like adjustments in the box), he is prepared to share that information with the coaching staff for the next spring.
I've seen Dusty Baker call pitches from the dugout with veteran catchers. I'm sure that a HS coach can get away with it.
I call pitches in the Spring for various reasons. One, we position our defense off our pitching sequences. An example: our 2B is very strong defensively and has a ton of range. Our pitching staff commands the fastball well. The hitter uses the opposite field often. With nobody on base, we go ahead and pitch to the "hitter's strength" to try and get a quick out.
I don't want the pitcher having to think about all of that. We give every one of our players a scouting report on the other team the day before the game, and it details how we attack hitters, etc. So they know the overall plan. But during the game, we want them to focus on execution, and we do the thinking.
Secondly, there is just more pressure in a HS season than there is in a summer season. Nobody really cares about wins and losses in the summer, so mistakes are easy to allow, and made into a teaching moment. In the Spring, that is tougher.
In the summer, we allow our catchers and pitchers to call all pitches. This allows the pitchers/catchers to think, set up hitters, etc. It also helps prepare them for college. Furthermore, if a catcher starts to pick up on little things (like adjustments in the box), he is prepared to share that information with the coaching staff for the next spring.
I've seen Dusty Baker call pitches from the dugout with veteran catchers. I'm sure that a HS coach can get away with it.
Okay, taking into consideration most summer teams try to develope younger players, what do you think the success rate of the catcher/pitcher calling pitches is compared to you calling the pitches? Again, taking into consideration the defense will be different in summer ball, but I am talking about results that would would normally produce an out, ie; ground ball or fly out should they have had the "good defense" behind them?
quote:Nobody really cares about wins and losses in the summer
Not around here
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
...Heck, I’d venture a guess that many ML teams spend as much or more on gathering, interpreting, and presenting data, than the biggest DI colleges spend on their entire baseball program, so even mentioning HS or below in the same breath, is more ludicrous than a fantasy.
It would be the same thing as saying that since ML players drink booze and chew, that’s what Little Leaguers should be allowed to do as well.
You appear to be contrarian just for the purpose of being so. You've done it with spray charts, statistics and now calling pitches.
As for the topic...On the other side of your argument, coaches who are intelligent, prepared and know something about the game can watch a hitter swing once or twice and develop a good sequence to get him out. I can see the argument for both sides.
I don't think pitchers and catchers get enough work in learning to call sequences or how to throw a pitch with a purpose.
I don't really feel like getting into this whole debate about who should call pitches because I feel like there is a time and a place for coach or the pitcher/catcher to call the game.
However, I do want to reference one of my favorite songs, The Gambler. It says "Every hands a winner, and every hands a loser". This is very true with calling pitches. When somebody hits a double in the gap, or a ball over the fence, it's not usually because of the particular pitch that was thrown...it's because of the location! Any particular pitch can be a good one in any situation if it is thrown in the correct location...when it isn't thrown in the correct location is when it gets hit.
However, I do want to reference one of my favorite songs, The Gambler. It says "Every hands a winner, and every hands a loser". This is very true with calling pitches. When somebody hits a double in the gap, or a ball over the fence, it's not usually because of the particular pitch that was thrown...it's because of the location! Any particular pitch can be a good one in any situation if it is thrown in the correct location...when it isn't thrown in the correct location is when it gets hit.
quote:Originally posted by Catching101:
I don't really feel like getting into this whole debate about who should call pitches because I feel like there is a time and a place for coach or the pitcher/catcher to call the game.
Can we take that to mean you don’t believe in having a policy set in concrete?
quote:
However, I do want to reference one of my favorite songs, The Gambler. It says "Every hands a winner, and every hands a loser". This is very true with calling pitches. When somebody hits a double in the gap, or a ball over the fence, it's not usually because of the particular pitch that was thrown...it's because of the location! Any particular pitch can be a good one in any situation if it is thrown in the correct location...when it isn't thrown in the correct location is when it gets hit.
I think that for the most part, you’re right on the button, but there will always be the inevitable great pitch in the perfect location that get pounded out of sight, and the lousy pitch in the wrong location that makes the best hitter look completely foolish. But that’s just the nature of the game. All a pitcher can do is execute whatever pitch he’s decided on as well as he can, and as close to where he wants to throw it as possible. But once he lets it go, its literally and figuratively out of his hands.
No, I do not want you to take it like that. I want it to be take exactly like I put it...I don't want to get into it because there is no right or wrong answer. There are situations when I think it is best for the coach to call the pithes, and there are also situations where it is best for the pitcher/catcher to call the pitches. It's not a "one size fits all" problem.
Baseball is a game of averages, there aren't many absolutes...sure, there will be times that a pitcher makes a great pitch and it gets hit, but that usually doesn't happen. I'm talking about the law of averages over the course of an entire game and an entire season. Pitches USUALLY get hit because they're in a poor location, not necessarily because of the particular pitch that was thrown.
Baseball is a game of averages, there aren't many absolutes...sure, there will be times that a pitcher makes a great pitch and it gets hit, but that usually doesn't happen. I'm talking about the law of averages over the course of an entire game and an entire season. Pitches USUALLY get hit because they're in a poor location, not necessarily because of the particular pitch that was thrown.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:quote:Nobody really cares about wins and losses in the summer
Not around here
You are correct. I am meaning that around here, the difference between a 26-15 record and a 22-19 record are meaningless. Obviously, in a different summer environment, it would change that thinking.
quote:Originally posted by lefthookdad:
Okay, taking into consideration most summer teams try to develope younger players, what do you think the success rate of the catcher/pitcher calling pitches is compared to you calling the pitches? Again, taking into consideration the defense will be different in summer ball, but I am talking about results that would would normally produce an out, ie; ground ball or fly out should they have had the "good defense" behind them?
It isn't as good overall, but again, sometimes a pitcher will open your eyes as to how they should pitch, etc. It could also not be as good simply because we don't know our opponents very well at all. We play out of the state/area in the summer, and know next to nothing about our opponents, so our pitchers/catchers may be calling into strengths of the hitter unknowingly.
There are many ways to skin a cat, and at one point we had a catcher/pitcher that were both drafted. Those 2 called their own pitches when working with each other. There was input given, but as a coaching staff, we weren't going to mess with a positive dynamic.
I tried the same thing 2 years ago, and it was a disaster. I allowed it to go on for 6 starts, then changed back to me calling everything from the dugout.
quote:Originally posted by Catching101:
No, I do not want you to take it like that. I want it to be take exactly like I put it...I don't want to get into it because there is no right or wrong answer. There are situations when I think it is best for the coach to call the pithes, and there are also situations where it is best for the pitcher/catcher to call the pitches. It's not a "one size fits all" problem.
Well, its nice to know that there are those who choose to use common sense, which sometimes isn’t very common.
quote:Baseball is a game of averages, there aren't many absolutes...sure, there will be times that a pitcher makes a great pitch and it gets hit, but that usually doesn't happen. I'm talking about the law of averages over the course of an entire game and an entire season. Pitches USUALLY get hit because they're in a poor location, not necessarily because of the particular pitch that was thrown.
Not that I didn’t agree before, but the above is a much better way to state it. The trouble with not stating things that way, is that there will always be some that take what’s being said as an absolute, and then you really do have problems.
Oh ok. Yeah not a big difference there. It does matter to the pitchers looking to move up though.quote:Originally posted by realteamcoach:quote:Originally posted by NDD:quote:Nobody really cares about wins and losses in the summer
Not around here
You are correct. I am meaning that around here, the difference between a 26-15 record and a 22-19 record are meaningless. Obviously, in a different summer environment, it would change that thinking.
our high school team was named national champions last sping in 4 of the major polls. my son was the catcher, called the pitches and we used the following foundation to call pitches:
first pitch to the middle of the plate anywhere down to maximize margin of error. if it's a strike then we can throw in or out with the fastabll and we always throw the breaking pitches to the middle of the plate unless in the dirt on purpose.
the most important pitch of the at-bat is 1-1, we want to throw a strike 70% or more of the time on 1-1. whatever pitch is the best strike pitch that day is coming on 1-1.
obviously if we have information on a hitter we will use that, but most high school hitters (most hitters really) do not hit the breaking pitch. if you have a fastball and can throw the breaking pitch for a strike you're tough. we also tried to make someone other than 3 and 4 beat us. we would pitch backwards to these guys unless we had nowhere to put them and if they walked ok. we made 5/6/7 beat us which didn't happen too often.
the coach and catcher were on the same page before we started and talked between innings about what was and wasn't working.
first pitch to the middle of the plate anywhere down to maximize margin of error. if it's a strike then we can throw in or out with the fastabll and we always throw the breaking pitches to the middle of the plate unless in the dirt on purpose.
the most important pitch of the at-bat is 1-1, we want to throw a strike 70% or more of the time on 1-1. whatever pitch is the best strike pitch that day is coming on 1-1.
obviously if we have information on a hitter we will use that, but most high school hitters (most hitters really) do not hit the breaking pitch. if you have a fastball and can throw the breaking pitch for a strike you're tough. we also tried to make someone other than 3 and 4 beat us. we would pitch backwards to these guys unless we had nowhere to put them and if they walked ok. we made 5/6/7 beat us which didn't happen too often.
the coach and catcher were on the same page before we started and talked between innings about what was and wasn't working.
forgot, if the first pitch is a ball, we come right back throwing to the middle of the plate to get back to even. learned this from vern ruhle who was a major league pitcher and coach of the astros when they made the playoffs. sandy koufax used the same plan.
the critical factor is that 2nd pitch for a strike, it's usually the difference between the men and the boys. keep that one in front of you behind the plate and you're in good shape
the critical factor is that 2nd pitch for a strike, it's usually the difference between the men and the boys. keep that one in front of you behind the plate and you're in good shape
quote:our high school team was named national champions last sping in 4 of the major polls.
National champions? No such thing. Ranked #1 in some polls, sure, but that isn't the same thing as a national championship.
My son is a freshmen and the coach does something interesting. He lets him call most of the game with certain siutations (bases loaded - etc) excepted.
However, when he is not catching and sitting in dugout he lets him signal in pitches to backup catcher. I think its a great idea (for my son - not necessarily for back up catcher). Allows them to talk freely about which pitches to call and why.
However, when he is not catching and sitting in dugout he lets him signal in pitches to backup catcher. I think its a great idea (for my son - not necessarily for back up catcher). Allows them to talk freely about which pitches to call and why.
quote:Originally posted by dusty delso:
the most important pitch of the at-bat is 1-1, we want to throw a strike 70% or more of the time on 1-1. whatever pitch is the best strike pitch that day is coming on 1-1.
Agree with everything but 1 - 1 being the MOST important pitch. To me, 1st pitch is most important. 1 - 1 pitch is a close second. Reason I feel 1st pitch is more important is a) there is a 1st pitch on every hitter, and b) I think hitters are more locked in 1 - 0 than they are 2 - 1 in my opinion.
I believe catchers should call the game. The next day, the pitching coach (or head coach) should sit down with the catchers and the pitchers and go over the pitch charts. Emphasize good pitch selections and go over better options on poor selections. It's a skill that develops over time. I don't think that skill is developed if the coach calls everything.
On a related note, calling a game is probably the most important thing a catcher does at the major league level. Catchers who are drafted out of major colleges and given a ton of money more and more have ABSOLUTELY NO experience at all in calling a game.
BaseballByTheYard.com
On a related note, calling a game is probably the most important thing a catcher does at the major league level. Catchers who are drafted out of major colleges and given a ton of money more and more have ABSOLUTELY NO experience at all in calling a game.
BaseballByTheYard.com
In a must-win game, the coach should call the pitches if he has more baseball IQ than the catcher.
"Training" can only take a pitch-caller part of the way. Instinctive baseball IQ trumps training every day of the week.
That being said, the ideal scenario is a pitcher with emotional command and high baseball IQ calling his own game, via shakeoffs.
"Training" can only take a pitch-caller part of the way. Instinctive baseball IQ trumps training every day of the week.
That being said, the ideal scenario is a pitcher with emotional command and high baseball IQ calling his own game, via shakeoffs.
