Catcher's Pop Time

2.0

Would any DI programs take a kid who throws a 2.1?

If you are talking about "in-game" pop times, I would say that anything near a 2.0 would be quite acceptable. Alot of the pop times you hear are ones that are artificial (throwing down in between innings or a staged throwdown. Accuracy plays such a big part of catching baserunners. For example, if you have one catcher throw 2.0 but is all over the place, but another who throws 2.1 and hits the bag, I'll take the 2.1 everytime. Keep working on it, catchers get faster as they get stronger and technique is critical.

If you are 2.1 but throw runners out you will get interest

under 2.0.

2.10 no matter what some people claim is SLOW, watch how much interest a 2.10 release time gets you at East Coast Pro Showcase

DRIVEL

Read the young mans question--he talking college Division I and a 2.1 will get him there

I had read the message 2.10 is SLOW. He better be a great hitter, because everyone will be running on him.

Review of Catchers I had at HS Showcases
Releases and where they are at
2.0 NAIA
2.09 NAIA
2.0 Div 2
1.96 Div 1
2.0 NAIA
1.95 Drafted 5th RD signed Div 1
1.98 Div 3
1.96 Div 3
2.0 NAIA
1.88 JUCO
2.0 Div 1
1.89 JUCO

anything is possible saw a 5-6 pitcher throwing 70-71 mph in a college game last weekend, and the game was on the line too

Again, I think we need to keep in mind how the pop times are calculated. Some catchers are really good at manipulating pop times at an event (step ahead of the plate, start early, etc.) The proof in the pudding so to speak is how that translates in a game situation. I've seen guys with 1.9 arms having a difficult time throwing anybody out. Biggest issue to me will be arm strength and technique. Of course, you have to hope that the player can receive and has a bat, but simply throwing a 2.1 will not erase you from the list.

To JBDdad...there is so much to being a catcher that is valuable. Every catcher at the college level does not have a plus arm. There are alot of things that can be done to improve pop times. Keep after it!

Thanks for everyone's comments. It sounds to me that 2.1 pop may get you to DI provided you have a lot of the other catcher skills.

To cut back on the "cheating" put a batter up there to swing and miss. I saw it done at one of the showcases my son went to and it worked very well.

I was wondering if a 2.2 pop time for the first time ever taken for a catcher is very good. or good enough to get some kind of ride at Southwest Baptist in Bolivar, MO

bearcatball: I believe Coach Sam Berg is still the head coach at Southwest Baptist. He is a great guy and I would bet he would be more than willing to answer any questions you may have. He is very open and honest. Try calling his office or writing him a letter.

Keep in mind that pop times are only as good as the guy operating the stopwatch. If we are talking the difference between at 2.1 and a 1.9, that is 2 tenths of a second. Not much time. The times listed above, I would take with a grain of salt.

Most quality showcases have a couple of guys on their watches to make sure the time is accurate.

Also keep in mind what a particular program is looking for.
We have a local catcher who has signed D1 and is no better than a 2.0 on his best day.
However, the kid is a switch hitter who can kill the ball when he's hot.

rbinaz

You have hit the nail on the head--- if a kid can mash he will play--on top of that pop times do not indicate the true ability to throw base stealers out--being a good catcher is more than just a pop time number

There is so much more to catching than pop times that I often find it funny how they are the only statistic you ever hear. How well you block a ball, set up a target, catch the unexpected pitch, how good are your hands, how fast can you run, can you hit, do you have a good attitude, are you a team leader, do the pitchers like throwing to you.......

It's important to remember that a pop time is just one facet of a catchers' make up. It is probably no different than a center fielder only talking about his time in the 60. Although that is quite important, there is so much more that goes into a ballplayers make up. When you talk to a potential coach it is important to present the entire picture of what you are and what you bring to the table. He may like you and sign you and then say "son go on out and play left field". You never know.

Please remember that a complete game is necessary and what the particular needs of a program are.
The factor lost in successfully throwing out runners is the time it takes for a pitcher to get the ball to the catcher. As a former pro ball manager, if a pitcher was 1.4 or slower to the plate, it didnt matter what the catcher pop time was....i was off to the races

What if your pop time is 1.8 but the ball goes 9 feet left of the second baseman into center field?

Hmmm. The ball gets to the CF faster so that the runner can't advance to third?

True.

My point was that I have heard some showcases are simply reporting pop time even if the throw isn't close to the bag, which is fairly important when trying to throw a runner out at second.

You are correct about that.

Ask Drivel--he may ne playing CF but i dont think so !!!

Bottom line-- pop times are inconsequential if you dont throw out base runners--see MIKE PIAZZA

My kid is an eighth grade catcher with a good arm. We do measure pop time, but we don't obsess on it, because there is much to catching beyond throwing out runners.

That said, pop time is a measure of not only arm strength, but also footwork, transition, and throwing technique, and therefore it is important to monitor.

My son's time has steadily improved this year as he's gotten stronger and developed a mature body. I've measured him at 2.06 in a staged throw with no runner. In practice with runners and pitched ball he touches 2.1. Tougher pitches to handle he's 2.2 to 2.25.

I have yet to get a game pop time on him, as we have had only one practice game so far this season. Will probably require a video camera, as I'm always doing something else in the dugout during games!

Rob - It sounds to me like you are obsessing a bit too much on times. More importantly, make sure he is having fun playing the game. He has a lot of time before he ever has to worry about pop times or 60 times or anything else.

As parents we get caught up in the potential without enjoying the success. A friend of mine once said "if your son is great at 13 enjoy every day for he may suck at 15". There really is a lot of truth to that.

I always paid attention to my son’s pop time, his velocity, bat speed, and every other aspect of his game ever since I can remember. As a catcher he was always aware of his pop time and as a pitcher he was always aware of his velocity. I also agree players should have fun. But what is “fun”? I think young players have fun when they compete against another team, another player, Playstation, or just a stop watch. Yes you can destroy a young man’s confidence with a stop watch but you can also build it too. It has very little to do with the actual stop watch or the radar gun but the intent of the “operator”. We all measure our sons in one way or another. We measure and record his academic ability and sometimes we put bumper stickers on our cars that says “My son is a 4.0 honor student”. Is that not the same as measuring his pop time and velocity and telling everyone when he hit a 2.0 pop time or touches 90 mph?
Fungo

Bench:

Thanks, but I disagree. I don't obsess on pop time at all. Measure it, yes, just like we will measure all sorts of performance stats, such as batting average, pitching velocity, ball/strike ratio, foot speed.

Why measure things like this? Because they are an indication of a player's current skill level and progress at getting better.

I also disagree that he has "lots of time before he must worry about pop times or 60 times or anything else."

He wants to get better, has very high goals, and absolutely loves playing baseball. One thing he loves about it is that there are objective measures of certain things that are closely related to his skill as a ballplayer. He begs me to bring the stopwatch to practice and games (which I only do occasionally). He considers it fun to see if he can beat his lowest pop time.

The fact is, there are ways we can measure certain baseball related skills in an objective fashion. Why is it wrong to track those measurements for a 14 year old kid?

Would you tell that to a kid who did track? Not worry about his high jump personal record or his fastest 100 meter dash? Or a basketball player, not worry about how many free throws he can make out of 100? Would you tell them just to "have fun.?"

The fact is, it is fun to get better.

I agree that one should not "obsess" on measurements, but I think it is wrong to say that they should not be "worried about," which implies somehow that they shouldn't be measured at the tender age of 14.

Rob & Fungo

I am sorry if I read the situation incorrectly. I would not have reacted the same way if this was in the pre-high school thread instead of the recruiting thread. When I see a question concerning an eighth grader in the recruiting thread my radar goes off.

I wish you nothing but success in the future and hope your son continues to maintain the love for the game as he grows older.

It is my opinion that times are a bit over-rated but we all have our opinions which makes this such a great game don't you think?

Your points about using statistics as a criterea to evaluate and improve are very good ones however. Used in this vein can prove to be very helpful.

Rob

What the field dimensions, ie basepath, home to pitching rubber etal ,that your 8th grader is playing on ?

TR:
He plays on a full-size field 90 ft bases and 60'6" mound. He's been on full field since last summer, when he played up a year.

Hey another question on pop-time: I looked at some of the videos on Perfect Game of catchers' throws.

Seems like most all of them moved into throwing position well before the pitch arrived in an attempt to get the best pop time. Some of them clearly would have interfered with a swing if there was a batter there, and they usually ended up with a stride well in front of home plate (something I teach my kid not do do).

So, my question is - do scouts take those pop times with a grain of salt, knowing that if a catcher used those techniques in a game, at the very least he would take strikes away from his pitcher and at worst, get hurt by a swinging bat?

It kind of adds to Bench's view - focusing on pop time can be stupid if you sacrifice fundamentals in an effort to shave a tenth.

ROB

What counts is what they do in the game !!!!!

TR:
Of course it is true that what happens in games counts the most. But obviously it is not always possible to observe certain things in games, which is why showcases video and measure times in simulated circumstances.

But my question is: why don't showcases such as PG have a batter swing in the box or in other ways make the simulation more game like? Seems like an easy thing to do, and it would prevent the sort of anticipation and bad fundamentals that I saw on those videos.

That's why I asked if scouts take those pop-times seriously, or if they dismiss them knowing that the kid is "gaming' the simulation.

Being involved with college scouting, I thought I'd ask you.

whenever this subject comes up the dialog is pretty much predictable - there are a couple of absolute truths tho

1)people who know baseball alot better than me say pop times are important

2)game times/performance are the ultimate proof

but, that said, pop measurements are most easily/often taken in ideal conditions, and if you're not sub 2 sec. in ideal conditions - well, you're sure not gonna get faster in a game setting. And if a player is working on the skills to get faster it's a pretty valuable yardstick for his progress.

often the other teams running game strategy is determined/affected by the catcher's pregame throws (no batter in the box there)
if he's quick ya may have little chance to see an "in game time" that day
it he's slow you'll probably see "in game times" ALL DAY LONG

also a good agressive catcher will sometimes be right on the edge flirting with CI (interference) because he takes the SB personally -
tho he'd not want to "take away a strike" from his pitcher, they'd both HATE just letting guys get into scoring position -


go for it Kremer, you're on the right track

regarding scouts/college coaches - don't worry they know what they're looking for & no-one's fooling them

Rob,

Actually at times we do put a hitter in there, but not often.

Do kids cheat? Yes, most do.

How much? Not a lot and not nearly enough for most.

Every outstanding pop time we have ever recorded has come from an outstanding catcher. We always gun the throws as well to get a feel for arm strength. We also record all game pop times (usually at least a tenth slower) and they are the most meaningful.

There are lots of catchers who will “never” throw 1.9 or better no matter how much they cheat. Throws with too much cheating involved are marked as such. It’s usually in the receiving end rather than throwing part that contains the most cheating.

We have found those who gain a lot of distance towards 2B in fact have the slowest times. If they caught the ball on the run and threw it from 6 feet in front of the plate they would record a very slow time. The ball travels much faster than the body moves. The body has to be under control in order to be the quickest. So gaining distance with the body is really not an advantage. We have seen many catchers who cheat, but some are just cheating themselves.

If a throw is 10 feet wide, there is no time recorded. Have to have 2 pops to record a time! If the player covering 2B can catch the throw 10 feet wide, you have a catcher with a very weak arm or the worlds fastest middle infielder.

Things like arm strength, carry, accuracy, footwork, transfer, etc are recorded as separate items. The pop time is a measurement of quickness. It has proven to be a valuable measurement over the years. Best times we have recorded belong to players who went on to play at major DI schools or in professional baseball.

It’s very easy for scouts and recruiters to see if someone is doing something abnormal that doesn’t relate to game action. But if the ball is received, transferred and thrown using correct mechanics, it’s all about who can do it the quickest and most accurately.

Scouts take everything into account. Good pop times might stimulate interest, but it has to happen in a game before it gets anyone extra excited.

Speaking strictly from a scouting standpoint. To me pop times are much more important than how many runners a catcher throws out (sorry TR). A player could be at a level where he’s throwing out nearly all the runners with 2.25 times. 2.25 will not throw out many runners at the higher levels. So that 2.25 needs to improve a lot or the catcher with the great CS% will be wondering why he’s not being recruited.

Same goes for the 7.8 runner who steals a lot of bases. He better get much quicker or he is a sure out at the higher levels. For sure he's not a going to be projected as a base stealer. His great instincts, good jump and ability to read pitchers won’t be enough. These are examples along with batting average and other things where the “actual results” can be very misleading.

There are always the workout/tryout numbers and the more important game grades. Scouts want to see both whenever possible!

BP shows some important things – and game Abs are even more important. If there’s a top prospect, you can count on it, there will be scouts there watching him take BP. He might not get a pitch to hit in the game.

Taking Infield shows important things – game fielding is even more important. If there’s a top prospect. Guaranteed scouts will watch infield, He might not have a play during the game.

Running the 60 shows some important things – game running times are more important.

Throwing a Bullpen shows important things – game pitching is even more important.

Workout Pop Times show important things – Game pop times are more important

My point is that it’s all important, all information is important, some more than others. Scouts and recruiters don’t just read 1.8 pop time and pull out the check book. I will admit that 1.8s will peak their interest, though.

I apologize. Just read the last post I submitted. Kind of sounds like it came from some know-it-all. Be assured I am a "don't-know-it-all" person and proud of it.

Hate it when that happens, not intentional. Truth is I enjoy reading everything others have to say about baseball and have learned some things along the way.

PGStaff:
Hey thanks for your reply; it was very interesting and enlightening. Didn't come across as a know-it-all one bit - it came across as knowing what you are talking about, which is what I was looking for.

I figured that cheating on pops wasn't going to fool anyone. In fact I saw several real low pop-times on some players that weren't rated all that high. (Obviously, a catcher is rated by more than just pop time, so a low overall rating could be from other factors.)

I appreciate the full explanation.

So many things come into consideration when it comes to the catching position, maybe more than any other position.

Much the same as PGStaff I do not consider myself an expert on this or any other subject, this will simply be my opinions and observations.

I have seen a high school catcher throw a legitimate 1.77 - 1.8 pop time. This player is now at an SEC D1 program.

I have seen other catchers throw around the 2.0 - 2.1 range that were drafted in the early rounds. What is the difference?

The total make-up of the catcher
* How does he receive the baseball
* His ability to be comfortable behind the plate
* His ability to block pitches in the dirt
* His arm strength ... is he throwing a 2.0 with excellent arm strength and weak footwork, or is the the footwork excellent and the arm strength average
* Can he run a "little bit" or maybe even well above average, or is he a "base clogger"
* How does he hit --- As the old saying goes ... if a player can hit he will find a spot in the line-up
* Can he hit with power
* Is he a leader on the field and in the dugout
* Does he relate well with his pitchers -- Can he make an effective visit to the mound, thus saving the coaching staff a visit
* Is he tough ... both mentally and physically

This is a quick list of things that come to my mind regarding catchers.

Can a catcher that throws a 2.1 find his way to a D1 program ... absolutley if he has most of the other qualities above.

And out of the woodwork comes some new guy by the name of Bob

But Bob... What if I do consider myself an expert on this and every other subject?

Sure is nice to know you're still kickin. Great site by the way!

My son is a freshman in college and will be a redshirt this spring.
His athletic ability behind the plate is amazing- there is no other catcher that blocks any better than he does - in fact he's probably better than at least 1 of the starters and as good as the other - His bat is consistently above 375 and higher - However he varies between 2.1-1.9 in pop times and from what we gather - pop times are more important to them than anything - I agree that there is so much more to catching than pop times - but so many do not have that philososphy - -
My son believes increasing his arm strenght is the most important thing right now and we feel certain he will - but I cant help but wonder if hes not in the right place - and wish he could come across somewhere that could use his abilities now- but we understand that being a redshirt can realy be a good thing -

Giving an opinion based on your information is tough. 1.9 to 2-1 is good as long as you are closer to the 1.9 most of the time and get the ball to the bag for the tag. It's great that he blocks well. Since he's freshman redshirt, you will have a great opportunity to see if he's in the right place. Did you know he would redshirt when you chose the college? What division and conference is his school? This will give a frame around how competitive the program is.