Catchers: To Pitch or not to Pitch?

You're right to take the stance that it's not too early to protect his arm. It's not the fact of pitching and catching: it's about sufficient rest and recovery between the two, and given those youth tournament weekends when you can play 4-5-6 games, there's no time to recover. Even for a non-catching position player it can possibly be too much, but for a catcher at middle school age?...too much stress within too short of a time frame.

I'd err on the side of caution.

If he's comfortable catching I wouldn't worry about pitching so much.  As he gets closer to HS it would be best to go one way or the other.  You really don't want to be a catcher/pitcher.  They have slightly different throwing motions.  Catcher's tend to throw from the ear while a pitcher should be throwing from further back.

My son's primary position was catcher from 9 years of age through his sophomore year of HS.  After that coach switched him to 3B, then 1B (needed his glove in the field more than behind the plate - he was a very good utility player as well as being a very good catcher).   He didn't mind switching - he said his knees had taken a beating from being behind the plate plus he tended to hit better when playing 3B or 1B.  Was recruited for college ball as 1B.

Thanks Fox.  That's very helpful.  I  think catcher is more of a natural position/throwing motion for him.  As time goes on his body will change and his preference/ability may change like your son's did.  You raise a good point though...maybe need to think about the knees as well which is something I think I take for granted more than the arm.  

One thing about being a catcher at young age it also hurts their development as a hitter because they are always catching bullpens on teams with a limited number of players.  That's been gong on since he was 8. 

Goblue, I have a 14u 8th grader who catches and pitches. You seem to have several issues:

1. Just because your son is catching he should NOT be missing much time in the cage hitting.  Let's say you have 15 kids on the team, 10 of them pitch, there should be 2-3 catchers.  Your son should not have to catch for them all.  If he is having to catch for them all frequently the team needs more catchers.

2. There are two positions that can have limb abuse, pitcher AND catcher.  I have asked for years where are the ASMI recommendations for catchers?  There are multiple catchers who have had to have TJ surgery. But also knee abuse is a real thing for catchers that is often overlooked.

3. If the coach wants him to both pitch and catch I would suggest he pitches and then catches, BUT NOT IN THE SAME GAME, once he starts catching in any tournament there shouldn't be any pitching.  It has been said on here often that a pitcher should have fresh legs to have proper mechanics, if he just did 80 squats I don't think his legs are that fresh.

4. 30 innings a weekend catching is pretty harsh.  It really sounds like your coach needs more backup catchers.

I always cringe when I see a the guy who was just pitching put on the catchers gear, or the guy who just took off the catchers gear take the mound.

Goblue33 posted:

Thanks Fox.  That's very helpful.  I  think catcher is more of a natural position/throwing motion for him.  As time goes on his body will change and his preference/ability may change like your son's did.  You raise a good point though...maybe need to think about the knees as well which is something I think I take for granted more than the arm.  

One thing about being a catcher at young age it also hurts their development as a hitter because they are always catching bullpens on teams with a limited number of players.  That's been gong on since he was 8. 

You are right it has.  And I hate that.  I have always been of the belief that if you want to be a pitcher or catcher it comes with the burden of extra practice time. Either before or after practice to throw the pens.  That way nobody misses out on anything. However there are a lot of coaches who just don't do that.  Or the other one I hate (my son is a first baseman) is when they line up all the infielders - except the first basemen - and hit ground balls while first basemen take throws...  Then they give the first baeeman a few obligatory grounders.  I always joke that we must have a contract with our opponents that they agree never to hit a ground ball to first!

20/20 Dad;

If you son needs practice on fielding then you or a teammate spend the time for extra practice.

Never hit the grounders directly at the 1b, use range work one to the left and one to the right.

ask your son questions. how quick is his 2b? what is the 2b range to his left or to his right. Constantly remind his pitcher to cover 1b on any ball to the right side of the infield. A few ground balls from the coach will not prepare the 1b for his role. Knowledge of the position will.

"Preparation will"

Bob

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goblue, I have a 14u 8th grader who catches and pitches. You seem to have several issues:

1. Just because your son is catching he should NOT be missing much time in the cage hitting.  Let's say you have 15 kids on the team, 10 of them pitch, there should be 2-3 catchers.  Your son should not have to catch for them all.  If he is having to catch for them all frequently the team needs more catchers.

2. There are two positions that can have limb abuse, pitcher AND catcher.  I have asked for years where are the ASMI recommendations for catchers?  There are multiple catchers who have had to have TJ surgery. But also knee abuse is a real thing for catchers that is often overlooked.

3. If the coach wants him to both pitch and catch I would suggest he pitches and then catches, BUT NOT IN THE SAME GAME, once he starts catching in any tournament there shouldn't be any pitching.  It has been said on here often that a pitcher should have fresh legs to have proper mechanics, if he just did 80 squats I don't think his legs are that fresh.

4. 30 innings a weekend catching is pretty harsh.  It really sounds like your coach needs more backup catchers.

I always cringe when I see a the guy who was just pitching put on the catchers gear, or the guy who just took off the catchers gear take the mound.

All good points.  Unfortunately, with a limited roster (my son's HS team only had 2 catchers at most on a 13 man roster) sometimes coaches don't have much choice though I have seen some coaches have a bench player don the gear to catch bullpen when the starting C was taking BP or working with another pitcher or alternate position and the backup catcher was off doing another skill session.

Even at the college level, you won't see more than 2-3 catchers on average.  My son's JuCo and D2 teams had only three - the main starter, backup and bullpen.  The primary starter and backup usually rotated between starts with the primary starting in game 1 of a DH.  If only one game, then the primary still got the start.  The only time the bullpen C would see the field was if one of the others was unavailable to play.

Very rare at the college level to see a catcher pitch.

It's still too early to think about what your son will be good at in high school.  He may turn out to be the best pitcher in the area.  

My 2017 is the primary catcher and pitcher as well.  What I don't like is for my son to take off his catcher equipment in the middle of an inning and take the mound.  His a-hole coach did that one game and wondered why it took him 3 batters to hit his spots.  

Don't be afraid to take charge of your sons health because no one else will.  

Blue your first post could have been written by me about my son 10 years ago.  He had a great AAU coach who was very careful about the players health and would rather lose a game than put a player at risk.  We always thought my son was a catcher, but like your son he had a strong arm and could pitch although he was never really developed as a pitcher.  He also got time in the outfield and first base, he never caught back to back games.  He pitched a little in AAu tournaments when needed.  

Fast forward to today.  He pitched and caught in high school,  pitched and caught in college at a very good mid major D1, was drafted his junior year as a pitcher but didn't sign and returned his senior year and was all conference catcher.  He signed to play in Europe as a pitcher, played there after graduation in 2014.  He returned to the states and was signed to pitch in Independent ball in 2015 but 2 weeks before he was to report he got a call from his coach who looked at his college numbers and talked to some scouts and the decision was he was a better catcher so he became their catcher, did a great job and was promoted to a higher level of Indy ball and will be a starting catcher this year in the Can-Am league.

Bottom line is I am glad he could do both, twice as many doors can open for him but be sure his health comes first.

Can-O-Corn, what a great profile name

lionbaseball posted:

It's still too early to think about what your son will be good at in high school.  He may turn out to be the best pitcher in the area.  

My 2017 is the primary catcher and pitcher as well.  What I don't like is for my son to take off his catcher equipment in the middle of an inning and take the mound.  His a-hole coach did that one game and wondered why it took him 3 batters to hit his spots.  

Don't be afraid to take charge of your sons health because no one else will.  

+1 here.  And in fact, even what he is playing at in HS may not be his best or primary position.  Lots of kids go into HS thinking they are going to play one position and then are moved to another position by the HS V coach.  A lot of it depends on needs.  

For instance lets say your son is a very good catcher, but the catcher who graduates the year before him is also a very good catcher.  Most likely your son will regulated to the backup catcher or bullpen catcher role until his Sr year.  Now if you son can pitch as well, and is one of the better pitchers, it will buy him additional playing time.  Lets say your son shows he is one of the better pitchers on the team.  The HS coach may very well elect to make him a PO rather then a catcher and keep him there throughout his HS career.  Even though he may actually be a better catcher.  Heck, he may even be a better catcher then the kid who he chooses to play at catcher.  It all depends on the HS needs while your child is there.  

Sorry, not to distract from the root of the conversation on being a C-P.  Just wanted to add to the its too early idea.   

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goblue, I have a 14u 8th grader who catches and pitches. You seem to have several issues:

1. Just because your son is catching he should NOT be missing much time in the cage hitting.  Let's say you have 15 kids on the team, 10 of them pitch, there should be 2-3 catchers.  Your son should not have to catch for them all.  If he is having to catch for them all frequently the team needs more catchers.

2. There are two positions that can have limb abuse, pitcher AND catcher.  I have asked for years where are the ASMI recommendations for catchers?  There are multiple catchers who have had to have TJ surgery. But also knee abuse is a real thing for catchers that is often overlooked.

3. If the coach wants him to both pitch and catch I would suggest he pitches and then catches, BUT NOT IN THE SAME GAME, once he starts catching in any tournament there shouldn't be any pitching.  It has been said on here often that a pitcher should have fresh legs to have proper mechanics, if he just did 80 squats I don't think his legs are that fresh.

4. 30 innings a weekend catching is pretty harsh.  It really sounds like your coach needs more backup catchers.

I always cringe when I see a the guy who was just pitching put on the catchers gear, or the guy who just took off the catchers gear take the mound.

My son is in a similar situation. His primary position is catcher but he has started getting more pitching opportunities in bracket games. There is another catcher on our team and they typically rotate games (rather than innings during a game) at catcher and, obviously, have to catch each other when they pitch. 

I'm glad he's getting the pitching opportunities but I definitely pay attention to when he catches versus when he pitches. I also pay attention to the number of innings caught in a day or weekend. 

His travel team does a good job of managing their workload but if they go deep into bracket play they can catch quite a bit between the two of them. They also do a good job of not having our catchers pitch on days where they caught earlier in the day.  The only exception is occurrences where one has to catch the other one since there are only two catchers on our team but that typically gets managed pretty well as they often pitch on different days.

can-o-corn posted:

Blue your first post could have been written by me about my son 10 years ago.  He had a great AAU coach who was very careful about the players health and would rather lose a game than put a player at risk.  We always thought my son was a catcher, but like your son he had a strong arm and could pitch although he was never really developed as a pitcher.  He also got time in the outfield and first base, he never caught back to back games.  He pitched a little in AAu tournaments when needed.  

Fast forward to today.  He pitched and caught in high school,  pitched and caught in college at a very good mid major D1, was drafted his junior year as a pitcher but didn't sign and returned his senior year and was all conference catcher.  He signed to play in Europe as a pitcher, played there after graduation in 2014.  He returned to the states and was signed to pitch in Independent ball in 2015 but 2 weeks before he was to report he got a call from his coach who looked at his college numbers and talked to some scouts and the decision was he was a better catcher so he became their catcher, did a great job and was promoted to a higher level of Indy ball and will be a starting catcher this year in the Can-Am league.

Bottom line is I am glad he could do both, twice as many doors can open for him but be sure his health comes first.

Thanks for posting can-o-corn!  Yet another perfect example about how no two players take the same path.  I'm glad it is working out for your son!

Goblue33 posted:

My son  is just in middle school but  is trending toward being a catcher with a very high ceiling or so we are being told by people who would know.  I'll just leave out all the pre-pubescent accolades and leave it at that and ask you to assume that is true with all of the things that can happen between now and and being an adult player including burnout, girls, getting passed by etc.     

I am of the mindset that you can't start too early to protect arms as I'm reading everywhere that 25% of kids playing our level of ball are having surgery these days.  For example more than once  when we've joined new teams he has been over used as a catcher (30+ innings in a weekend below 12) and I've asked the coach to think about the arm and developing a player not winning games.  

He  is also a very good pitcher as you might expect but  for some reason no matter how well he does on the mound I can't see him as a pitcher should he go on past high school.   His travel team is so good that there are 4 or 5 pitchers who are just as good or better so we generally get in some work but he's not overused as pitcher.  He would be one of the top 1 or 2 pitchers on any other team in our state and most teams in our "region".  The other dads are all lobbying for more work and grumbling on the sideline and I am not bothered by it.        

When I ask him where he has the most enjoyment he says he likes to catch, feels most comfortable catching and is happy pitching 2-4 innings per weekend and not pitching in semis and championships.     

Here's my question.   His coach who we love  and trust and who was a catcher himself at the highest level doesn't pitch him all that much because they only play tournaments and are generally saving him to catch the last 2 games on Sunday (we generally win our tournaments).   At first this bothered me and I was going to put him on an other team to get some pitching work in, but the more I think about it the more I don't think care all that much whether he pitches at all.   Also when he has had soreness in his arm it's of course been when he has caught a lot and pitched a little more than usual  in the same weekend.  

Let's say this trend continues into 14, 15u/16u into HS.  Am I making a mistake not getting him more pitching experience or am I saving the arm a bit for HS and days and beyond, not to mention not developing as a fielder?    Anyone have any thoughts ont this? 

I will add that i searched this board and many others for information on limits and arm injures for catchers and found very little info so if anyone has a good resource I would appreciate it.  I am sure it's out there just could not locate much myself. 

Thanks all. 

At your age level, I would feed him as much baseball as he can take.  Catcher, pitcher, infield, outfield, fungo guy, etc.  Obviously, watch the catching/pitching combination -- but it can be done without harm with the right circumstances. 

When HS comes, it will all change.  My kid played catcher 12-15.  Pretty much every inning  of every game.  This year HS is trying to move him to 3b saying he is a "great" 3b and has great glove work.  I asked the kid about it.  He says "when I used to practice grounders with coach x, I hated it.  The guy would literally hit the ball has hard as possible at us.  Now, all I hear when the ball comes to me is coach x in my head telling me what to do."   

Do as much as possible.  Good luck. 

joes87 posted:

lionbaseball posted:

It's still too early to think about what your son will be good at in high school.  He may turn out to be the best pitcher in the area.  

My 2017 is the primary catcher and pitcher as well.  What I don't like is for my son to take off his catcher equipment in the middle of an inning and take the mound.  His a-hole coach did that one game and wondered why it took him 3 batters to hit his spots.  

Don't be afraid to take charge of your sons health because no one else will.  

+1 here.  And in fact, even what he is playing at in HS may not be his best or primary position.  Lots of kids go into HS thinking they are going to play one position and then are moved to another position by the HS V coach.  A lot of it depends on needs.  

For instance lets say your son is a very good catcher, but the catcher who graduates the year before him is also a very good catcher.  Most likely your son will regulated to the backup catcher or bullpen catcher role until his Sr year.  Now if you son can pitch as well, and is one of the better pitchers, it will buy him additional playing time.  Lets say your son shows he is one of the better pitchers on the team.  The HS coach may very well elect to make him a PO rather then a catcher and keep him there throughout his HS career.  Even though he may actually be a better catcher.  Heck, he may even be a better catcher then the kid who he chooses to play at catcher.  It all depends on the HS needs while your child is there.  

Sorry, not to distract from the root of the conversation on being a C-P.  Just wanted to add to the its too early idea.   

Guys, if his kid is in 8th grade HS ball could be in like 5 months, not to early to think about these things.  However, if his kid is in 6th grade I'm with you!

I once heard a coach say "Do you know what the difference is between a Utility Player and PO?"  The answer is "His batting average".

Goblue33 posted:

My son  is just in middle school but  is trending toward being a catcher with a very high ceiling or so we are being told by people who would know.  I'll just leave out all the pre-pubescent accolades and leave it at that and ask you to assume that is true with all of the things that can happen between now and and being an adult player including burnout, girls, getting passed by etc.     

I am of the mindset that you can't start too early to protect arms as I'm reading everywhere that 25% of kids playing our level of ball are having surgery these days.  For example more than once  when we've joined new teams he has been over used as a catcher (30+ innings in a weekend below 12) and I've asked the coach to think about the arm and developing a player not winning games.  

He  is also a very good pitcher as you might expect but  for some reason no matter how well he does on the mound I can't see him as a pitcher should he go on past high school.   His travel team is so good that there are 4 or 5 pitchers who are just as good or better so we generally get in some work but he's not overused as pitcher.  He would be one of the top 1 or 2 pitchers on any other team in our state and most teams in our "region".  The other dads are all lobbying for more work and grumbling on the sideline and I am not bothered by it.        

When I ask him where he has the most enjoyment he says he likes to catch, feels most comfortable catching and is happy pitching 2-4 innings per weekend and not pitching in semis and championships.     

Here's my question.   His coach who we love  and trust and who was a catcher himself at the highest level doesn't pitch him all that much because they only play tournaments and are generally saving him to catch the last 2 games on Sunday (we generally win our tournaments).   At first this bothered me and I was going to put him on an other team to get some pitching work in, but the more I think about it the more I don't think care all that much whether he pitches at all.   Also when he has had soreness in his arm it's of course been when he has caught a lot and pitched a little more than usual  in the same weekend.  

Let's say this trend continues into 14, 15u/16u into HS.  Am I making a mistake not getting him more pitching experience or am I saving the arm a bit for HS and days and beyond, not to mention not developing as a fielder?    Anyone have any thoughts ont this? 

I will add that i searched this board and many others for information on limits and arm injures for catchers and found very little info so if anyone has a good resource I would appreciate it.  I am sure it's out there just could not locate much myself. 

Thanks all. 

If your son enjoys catching and that is where the coach wants him, he doesn't need to pitch.  But he should get a break by playing other positions and there should be another player who can catch, that would be my concern. Also, catchers after HS have to hit, their position is determined by their arm.  So keep that in mind.  As your son moves onto HS or college, the coaches will determine where he will play.  So if loves it let it alone.

Being concerned about his arm health at this age is important.  Good for you!

Don't let others make you think that it's ok to do both in middle school or in youth baseball, it's not.  

BTW, TJS isn't as common for catchers as it is for pitchers but it happens. Catchers don't throw curve balls or sliders. They do have shoulder and knee issues.

My friend's son (8th grader) is a catcher who has recently decided not to pitch anymore. Last fall he cruised 80 - 82 and topped out at 84 on the mound.  He is also a great, not good, hitter and although he has only caught for a couple of years, he is a really good catcher.

Another kid (2017) was a really good catcher but travel ball coach convinced his dad that he was special on the mound. He is now a PO and has committed to top-level D1 program.

My point is to leave your options open...while making sure that you continue to protect his arm. Don't succumb to the pressure from other dads because you're doing the right thing. 

Best of luck to your son!

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goblue, I have a 14u 8th grader who catches and pitches. You seem to have several issues:

1. Just because your son is catching he should NOT be missing much time in the cage hitting.  Let's say you have 15 kids on the team, 10 of them pitch, there should be 2-3 catchers.  Your son should not have to catch for them all.  If he is having to catch for them all frequently the team needs more catchers.

2. There are two positions that can have limb abuse, pitcher AND catcher.  I have asked for years where are the ASMI recommendations for catchers?  There are multiple catchers who have had to have TJ surgery. But also knee abuse is a real thing for catchers that is often overlooked.

3. If the coach wants him to both pitch and catch I would suggest he pitches and then catches, BUT NOT IN THE SAME GAME, once he starts catching in any tournament there shouldn't be any pitching.  It has been said on here often that a pitcher should have fresh legs to have proper mechanics, if he just did 80 squats I don't think his legs are that fresh.

4. 30 innings a weekend catching is pretty harsh.  It really sounds like your coach needs more backup catchers.

I always cringe when I see a the guy who was just pitching put on the catchers gear, or the guy who just took off the catchers gear take the mound.

Asmi does recommend not pitch and catch the same time. However I agree that overload monitoring should include position player throwing more and not just pitching. 

To the OP I think he doesn't need to pitch but I would get him a little bit of work at second or third too. 

 A lot of good posts...but,  in the long run I think it will be his bat and his hitting development that will end up dictating his path

I asked a similar question last year, here is the thread:

http://community.hsbaseballweb...52#22834385751068052

My 2017 is a catcher and was approached by one of his coaches about pitching.  I suggested to my son no, just because of the amount of wear and tear on his arm.  I don't think some people actually realize how much a catcher throws.  I do agree that playing another position other than catcher is beneficial to give his body a rest.