Catholic High School withholds diploma of Wichita State player

quote:

Originally posted by calisportsfan:
Mizzou...I hope he can go watch his kid play. He sounds ill and his son grew up with that. It was mentioned that the dad rarely left the house. Knowing how I fortunate I feel to be able to send my kids to catholic schools and be able to pay in this economy, I am sorry for the father he does not have that feeling. I doubt he ever thought, if I fail to pay, others will step in and handle my debt! It sounds like life got hard and he wasn't able to push through. Regarding the kid being lucky someone published his story, I doubt he feels lucky. He most likely wishes his private struggles had stayed just that, private.
Should he have transferred as a junior when things got bad, probably but they most likely hung on too long and got in a bad spot. The kid wasn't on the sports brochure for any reason other then he is a good athlete and the people who created it had no idea of his financial status. It's not something that everyone knows, until now. A whole new hurdle for the young man.
Here's to hoping for a better New Year to that family and that they one day or just the boy has the chance to help someone else out in the future as they were helped. Nothing wrong with that lesson as a young person grows into a man.

You are most kind in your post but it's pretty hard to not argue that Three Bagger makes a great point about not listing them as creditors in their bankruptcy. Could it just be that they intentionally led them to beleive they were sincere?

It could very well be, that they thought or were led to beleive that once they got others off their back they thought they could rob Peter to pay Paul (no pun intended). Again, we just don't know the whole circumstances, only what we have read.

We didn't have the opportunity to go watch son play much while in college, we had to stay home and work to pay the bills.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:


Here in NJ many catholic prep schools are turning into sports factories that resemble big time college teams more than religious schools. Recruit like crazy, hire the hot coach away from a competitor and fire coaches every other year. A baseball team that went like 25-1 and won the state championship fired their coach because parents, who could afford to pay more than tuition, complained that their Johnny wasn't playing.

I spent the last eighteen years across the river in the same metro area. The same Catholic private schools play for the state championships almost every year. They don't "wink, wink" recruit. They just send out the athletes to tell other athletes they need to come play with them. Now I see the same thing in MA as I've started following high school sports.

For those who don't know there are different kinds of Catholic schools. There are Catholic private high schools and Catholic high schools. The difference is about 10K per year.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
The same Catholic private schools play for the state championships almost every year. They don't "wink, wink" recruit.

Never seemed right, to me, that public schools have defined boundaries "wink", yet kids from NJ and Delaware at the private schools (no boundaries) can play for the PA state championship.

I don't understand that on Ant. Are you saying that NJ and Delaware schools play in the PA playoffs. I haven't heard of that.

A school has to be in the state athletic association to play for the state championship. First they must be located in the state. Do the names Cathedral, Central Catholic, LaSalle and SJ Prep sound familar in every sport at championship time?

One of the reasons the Inter-Ac won't join the PIAA is the rule against recruiting. They don't want to "wink wink" not recruit.

I love how De La Salle of Concord, CA won over 100 straight football games without "wink, wink" recruiting.

RJM, you don't know a thing about DLS admit it. It's an easy target for you. Do you know the local paper offered a 1k reward for anyone who could prove recruiting? It's never happened and in fact nobody has even attempted to collect. Sometimes, people are willing to pay for quality. I don't even like the baseball program of the catholic school my son attends but I love the school and it's value's.

If it's a good school, they don't have to recruit, people want to be part of something special. Seems to me they are special.

Regarding the topic, the boy did none of this. He is being dragged down here. I won't have the chance to watch my son play in college and I will take loans out to pay for college as a single person raising three on my own. I so wish I could but I would never begrudge someone else the chance to see their kid play because the kid will love it.

Every day I feel lucky, I hope you all do too. Don't read that that I am privileged. Far from it, but I am grateful each day that I can care for my own and know I can do without a lot more then we do.

I wish you all a prosperous and happy New Year.

Doesn't it bother anyone that the school was charging an 18% interest rate when the prime rate is at 3%....and after the parents didn't throw this debt into the bankruptcy filing?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Doesn't it bother anyone that the school was charging an 18% interest rate when the prime rate is at 3%....and after the parents didn't throw this debt into the bankruptcy filing?

Doesn't bother me.
However, I am puzzled why you would think the prime rate might be a reference point for setting the interest rate for unsecured overdue debt. This is about as sub-prime as a loan gets. Know anyone who'd charge this family less?

quote:

RJM, you don't know a thing about DLS admit it.

I'll never buy a high school team won 100+ straight games without recruiting. We have Catholic privates in our area that don't recruit by definition. The kids/players sell the kids/prospects. The parents sell the prospect's parents. Travel coaches steer players in the school's direction. Yes, some kids just go due to the success of the programs. But there is covert, indirect recruiting taking place.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't understand that on Ant. Are you saying that NJ and Delaware schools play in the PA playoffs. I haven't heard of that.

I think it's meant that kids from out of state will attend a private school from another (neighboring state). It's why in NJ, schools like Don Bosco win 25-30 games every year and win or at least get to the state finals almost every year. They also have gone thru four head coaches in the last four years which is very of odd since these teams never lose more than 2-3 games a year.

Maybe they should re-open the bankruptcy case, amend it to include the school and tell them to send the dad-burned diploma....I can't imagine the school can withhold the diploma when the debt no longer exists...and the parents can still pay it back if they so choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Strike 3:

quote:

Originally posted by hokieone:
Maybe they should re-open the bankruptcy case, amend it to include the school and tell them to send the dad-burned diploma....I can't imagine the school can withhold the diploma when the debt no longer exists...and the parents can still pay it back if they so choose.

How about the Dad "man up" and get ANY job to pay the bill? I'm sure he could even work it off at DeSmet.

If he is "disabled", he would likely be getting SSI and the s.o.b. story article would have noted that.

The reason it wasn't included in the bankruptcy is because their son could have no longer attended DeSmet if they did. He'd have to return to public school. Oh the horror.

Swampboy, primerate is a reference point for all lending. Charging usery rates when the prime is near all time lows is rather "aggressive" ...

If anyone failed to notice in another article they settled for 6500 were forwarding the diploma last week.
I don't remember (it was a while ago)sending any diploma for proof that son graduated, but remember seeing graduated stamped on his final transcript, can anyone fill me in on that? Did the school actually need his diploma, or a final transcript not released to the clearinghouse?

I think that both sides had their issues. Asking to pay back at 18% when they couldn't pay in the first place, well I just don't get that.

I have to go with RJM, all private schools recruit, but they do it in such a way it's disguised as true interest in attending the school for academic reasons, not for athletics.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
there is covert, indirect recruiting taking place.

Some is not so indirect. I did the chains in CYO (grade school) for four years. It was pretty common to see high school coaches on the sidelines.

"I gotta talk to this kid after the game."

The public schools aren't so squeaky clean, either. Is it just coincidence that many of the 'underprivileged' urban kids selected to attend a prestigious school the suburbs for 'a better chance' happen to be great basketball players?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Doesn't it bother anyone that the school was charging an 18% interest rate when the prime rate is at 3%....

Actually, the 18% is a pretty common vestige of contracts that were written up years ago. The point of the high rate is to make clear that it needs to be paid. They aren't getting rich on the interest since the item should be paid for well before it gets to that point.

Have you seen some credit card contracts? Does it look like they are minding the rate drops? i.e. case in point Sears: 24.9%!


As to the private school recruiting, I'm sure there are aggresive coaches out there who may have a chat or two rather than risk getting fired, but that's the exception not the rule.

I'm so tired of the public school people who scream foul when a private school wins and are mysteriously silent when a public school wins.

And for the few public school whiners (yes, they are a minority of the crowd), keep in mind that if the private schools went away your municipality would be in bankruptcy for lack of resources to teach all the kids who instead pay both taxes and tuition to attend school.

Both schemes are needed. Don't fault the private schools when their system happens to be one that might be better than the public system. And before someone screams, YES I KNOW that some public systems are fantastic. More power to them.

So if the private school is attractive for its academics, social conscience, and yes athletics, then I suppose you can consider that recruiting.

Sorry, stepping off soap box now.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Swampboy, primerate is a reference point for all lending. Charging usery rates when the prime is near all time lows is rather "aggressive" ...

The prime rate is the short-term rate commercial banks charge their most credit-worthy customers, usually corporations.

This is about as far away as you can get from that negligible risk scenario.

Calling it usury, even if you had spelled it right, wouldn't have answered my question: which lender would give this family better terms?

Don't expect the school, which isn't in the money lending business and which needs the money to pay salaries and electric bills, to give them better terms than they could get elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't understand that on Ant. Are you saying that NJ and Delaware schools play in the PA playoffs. I haven't heard of that.

I think it's meant that kids from out of state will attend a private school from another (neighboring state). It's why in NJ, schools like Don Bosco win 25-30 games every year and win or at least get to the state finals almost every year. They also have gone thru four head coaches in the last four years which is very of odd since these teams never lose more than 2-3 games a year.

zomby,
you mention above the school I was referring to about firing a coach that went 25-1. It was his first year at the school. The story goes that parents with money complained their kids weren't playing enough, went to the AD or president, and got the coach fired. I think the previous coach only lasted a year or two also. Apparently the school is mored worried about losing the donations than an employee's well being. This school is a powerhouse in all sports.

A private catholic school in South Jersey hired a local college assistant and a rival's head coach this fall. The coach openly stated that their goal is to be like and compete with Don Bosco. They ain't gonna do that without convincing a lot of top talent to attend their school. And the selling point won't be getting a catholic education because they can get that at many other schools in the area.

The private school recruiting issue is common everywhere. Private schools in NJ or CA don't win year, after year, after year without some sort of recruiting going on. It just doesn't add up IMO.

quote:

The prime rate is the short-term rate commercial banks charge their most credit-worthy customers, usually corporations.

which is why i called it a reference point, not an expected interest rate. it's an indication of the overall cost of money. what are you so hostile about (hopefully I spelled that right)? is the school entitled to charge 18%...sure if their agreement said so. i didn't say they should be allowed to borrow a limitless amount at prime. i just find it interesting that the school is choosing the maximize their profits in the situation by charging what i think is the maximum interest rate allowed by law.

Would disagree that recruiting for athletic purposes is common everywhere in the privates. Know of many K-12 Christian schools where THE focus is on a faith based education, & athletics comes secondary, if not third. For some familys, it is a great alternative, I've know many families that have transferred their children into private Christian schools, & quite a few into one of our two(metro wide)private Catholic HS's. Truth be known, most who did so for what they believed their child ought to be taught, not what the govt thought their child ought to be taught. Athletic wise, the privates also gave many of their children a place to play, if not star. Also know of parents who have transferred their young athletes OUT of the above privates, well before HS age, to be able to go to school, get a public education, & play in extremely strong athletic programs.

If the kid would not have had a fastball, would he have been denied admittance for his senior year? that's all I'm wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:
Would disagree that recruiting for athletic purposes is common everywhere in the privates. Know of many K-12 Christian schools where THE focus is on a faith based education, & athletics comes secondary, if not third.

I know of many people that sent their children to private schools due to smaller classroom and for athletics (and vice versa) rather than for faith based reasons. I even know a parent who specifically sent their son to a small christian private HS school so that his stats would be stellar among that smaller division.

People do things for all sorts of reasons.

Nothing wrong with that, but let's not hide the fact that many reasons that exist are not for what they would like us to beleive.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
there is covert, indirect recruiting taking place.

Some is not so indirect. I did the chains in CYO (grade school) for four years. It was pretty common to see high school coaches on the sidelines.

"I gotta talk to this kid after the game."

The public schools aren't so squeaky clean, either. Is it just coincidence that many of the 'underprivileged' urban kids selected to attend a prestigious school the suburbs for 'a better chance' happen to be great basketball players?

PW has a legitimate program that saves inner city youth. They save a lot of college prospect basketball, football and track stars. I've never heard of them saving an inner city chess master. Then there's Cheltenham Boulevard that's constantly moving a few blocks each year allowing some stud to play at Cheltenham.

quote:

you mention above the school I was referring to about firing a coach that went 25-1. It was his first year at the school. The story goes that parents with money complained their kids weren't playing enough, went to the AD or president, and got the coach fired. I think the previous coach only lasted a year or two also. Apparently the school is mored worried about losing the donations than an employee's well being. This school is a powerhouse in all sports.

The same thing happened at a non PIAA Philadelphia suburban powerhouse a couple of years ago. The coach ticked off the wrong player after a loss. There's no doubt in a lot of people's minds his parents led the revolt for the coaches removal. The next day he apologized for telling the kid he wasn't mentaly tough enough in big games. He resigned after the state tournament. From other coaches and parents I've heard what a nightmare it is to coach at this school. They went through three coaches in six years.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

The prime rate is the short-term rate commercial banks charge their most credit-worthy customers, usually corporations.

which is why i called it a reference point, not an expected interest rate. it's an indication of the overall cost of money. what are you so hostile about (hopefully I spelled that right)? is the school entitled to charge 18%...sure if their agreement said so. i didn't say they should be allowed to borrow a limitless amount at prime. i just find it interesting that the school is choosing the maximize their profits in the situation by charging what i think is the maximum interest rate allowed by law.

As of June 2011 the school's endowment fund balance was 5,227,946. Did they need the 18% on 11K from a family that couldn't afford payments to begin with, or were they making a statement that they felt they were being taken advantage of.

Again I am not taking sides, just wondering if the article was written to make the family look bad or the school?

quote:

The private school recruiting issue is common everywhere. Private schools in NJ or CA don't win year, after year, after year without some sort of recruiting going on. It just doesn't add up IMO.

My impression in our area is that the catholic and other private schools have better coaching pools to choose from, resulting in more "sucess".

I have found our local catholic hs is able to hire very good coaches while our local public school can't/won't. i.e. the private HS football coach can get a teaching job w/o a credential while the public HS football coach can't limiting the number of applicants/chocies for the AD. In CA public schools the coach hiring is also hampered by teaching contracts that allow 1st shot at a coaching job to any teacher that wants it. There have been a number of coach changes in our county due to this agreement and none of them have worked out well for the students.

You don't have look any further then the state of your local HS's to understand why people send their kids to private HS. Is it recruiting or is it parents trying to do their best for their kids?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

The prime rate is the short-term rate commercial banks charge their most credit-worthy customers, usually corporations.

which is why i called it a reference point, not an expected interest rate. it's an indication of the overall cost of money. what are you so hostile about (hopefully I spelled that right)? is the school entitled to charge 18%...sure if their agreement said so. i didn't say they should be allowed to borrow a limitless amount at prime. i just find it interesting that the school is choosing the maximize their profits in the situation by charging what i think is the maximum interest rate allowed by law.

Tx-Husker:
The edge in my answer was a reaction to what I regarded as an unsupported slam of the school. People have been very quick in this thread to assail the motives and actions of the school, which as far as we know entered into a contract in good faith, fulfilled its responsibilities, and showed great patience when the family failed to fulfill their responsibilities. Your accusation of usury, which is charging unlawfully excessive interest, was uninformed and unjust.

I also thought you were being deliberately obtuse in continuing to insist that the cost of money should have been a major factor in setting this particular interest rate when it is so blatantly obvious that the family's lack of credit-worthiness was a much more decisive factor.

In fact, Missouri's max interest rate is only 9%. However, as in most states, the legal maximum rate has lots of exceptions, most notably for federally chartered banks and specially chartered loan companies. Why are there exceptions? Well, without them, many people with short or checkered credit histories would have no access to credit at all. In fact, many people legally pay double the legal rate or even more on their revolving credit and auto loans. This baseball player's family is almost certainly in this category of borrower.

A more reasonable guess at the circumstances of the note is that: a) it was offered through a bank or loan company authorized to charge that rate, b) the school would not have profited from the interest collected, and c) the rate was far less than the family could have obtained by themselves.

Finally, your suggestion that the school is "maximizing its profits" is patently absurd. At nearly every private school, tuition comes far short of covering expenses. There are no profits to maximize.

So which one of us is hostile? You, who repeatedly impugn the motives of people you don't even know without having the least basis for believing they did anything wrong, or me, for urging restraint?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
...I know of many people that sent their children to private schools due to smaller classroom and for athletics (and vice versa) rather than for faith based reasons. I even know a parent who specifically sent their son to a small christian private HS school so that his stats would be stellar among that smaller division.

People do things for all sorts of reasons.

Nothing wrong with that, but let's not hide the fact that many reasons that exist are not for what they would like us to beleive.

JMO.

TPM, the private Christian programs I was referring to who field normal season HS baseball teams, are truly faith based, & these teams consistently don't do very well on the diamond. It's that way against in class teams and often against solid teams from smaller classification schools. Not much stat building going on. Now, I will agree with you, these schools may have fairly strong teams in other sports, & those teams may have drawn a few athletes in who otherwise would be riding the pine down the street at a big classification public HS with a really strong program.

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

The private school recruiting issue is common everywhere. Private schools in NJ or CA don't win year, after year, after year without some sort of recruiting going on. It just doesn't add up IMO.

My impression in our area is that the catholic and other private schools have better coaching pools to choose from, resulting in more "sucess".

I have found our local catholic hs is able to hire very good coaches while our local public school can't/won't. i.e. the private HS football coach can get a teaching job w/o a credential while the public HS football coach can't limiting the number of applicants/chocies for the AD. In CA public schools the coach hiring is also hampered by teaching contracts that allow 1st shot at a coaching job to any teacher that wants it. There have been a number of coach changes in our county due to this agreement and none of them have worked out well for the students.

You don't have look any further then the state of your local HS's to understand why people send their kids to private HS. Is it recruiting or is it parents trying to do their best for their kids?

I'm across the river in a different state but same region as zomby and fills. Antz is on my side of the river. On our side of the river high schools are not restricted in hiring coaches. Coaches are supposed to have teaching certificates regardless of where or whether they teach. But waivers are available. At my kids former high school the varsity football, boys basketball, baseball, softball, track, hockey and volleyball coaches do not teach in the high school. Some are teachers in the district.

The academics at our high school did not warrant sending the kids to private school even though we were approached with one of them. The top end of the college list from the high school was just as good as the private schools. The difference is the privates wouldn't have to take some of the kids at the high school who end up at lesser colleges.

I think its great that some folks stepped up and helped the kid. Very nice thing to do and best part of the whole story.

As for not paying your bills - (even in this Barney Frank era of "everyone gets a house they cannot afford") - usually bad things happen. And they should happen. You are not entitled to free stuff - you have to work for stuff.

You shouldn't commit to a purchase that you cant pay for.

Simple - sometimes painful and unfortunate - but very true IMO.

As for the wink wink nonsense - if you really want to see some big time "winks" take a gander at the NCAA while you are at it. LOL

That's the epitome of "Wink Wink".

quote:

As for the wink wink nonsense - if you really want to see some big time "winks" take a gander at the NCAA while you are at it. LOL That's the epitome of "Wink Wink".

Wink Wink

I asked a question, swamp, you made statements. You answered ... it doesn't bother you, that's fine. It has bothered others. I know all about how private schools work and how these loan programs work ... my son goes to a private HS. Banks are just a funding agent, the schools pull all the triggers.

My view is it's a little hard to give the school the high road when they chose (yes, they could have charged a different rate by adjusting the writedown they took on the loan/chargeback from the bank) to charge a family with multiple kids in their school for multiple years 18%.

PS...the state of MO consideres 18% beyond usury, so it seems the state is uninformed and unjust. Have a nice day.

My son went to a private inner city Catholic school in Chicago. It's academics are rigorous but it also played in the Chicago Catholic League, widely regarded as the best athletic conference in Illinois.

First, do schools in that conference recruit? Absolutely. At the same time you still needed to
get through admissions on your own (at least you did at my sons school).

More importantly, his school recruited the best non
athletes in Chicago from the poorest areas and allowed them to go to that great school tuition free. Not just saving parents $13,000+ but in fact saving the students from the torture of the Chicago public schools.

While it's fashionable to criticize catholics these days, no other faith puts the resources
into saving inner city blacks and Hispanics via their private schools as the catholic schools do.

The Jesuits have a saying "no margin, no mission". It means they have to be realistic about finding students who can pay the bill so they can fulfill their life saving mission in the inner city.

For the cynics who don't want to believe me (wink) I saw the parents of these kids at graduation who were in tears thanking the teachers who gave their children a first rate education and opportunity to go to college, often the first time in their family's history that someone would be going off to higher education.

So question the athletic recruiting by Catholic schools if you want (really who cares?) but until
some other faith or charity picks up the bill for many of these non athletes, my advice is just
accept it as a small down payment for the greater good they provide our society.

You guys need to kiss and make up, you both have made good points.

Too much we most likely don't know about and never will.

BTW, annual tution is $11,690 with all first time students paying 2365 for their HPtablet/PC 2740p with a 4 year guarantee. The info I read says that they give 1.1 mil in assistance to 20% of families (need based) per year. They offer 19 sports for an all male student body of approximately 950-1000.

It doesn't seem like a place where they would ask parents to work off the tuition, nor does it appear they need to charge 18% for uncollected funds.

Just sayin.......

This family is 100% at fault here. Who makes $47,000 with kids and thinks they can send them to private schools? When they fell so far behind third yr, they should have told them he could not come back for Senior yr, not add more debt. Sounds harsh, but that's life. Even though times are bad-could dad not have gotten a night job somewhere? Was he still getting unemployment for yrs? School has to pay bills and teachers, not fair for them to take on the cost.

Our private school has Jewish students-they still must take theology classes. We also have a financial aid dept.-many options on paying, some include student work study during yr or in summer. It is still expensive. This family may have wanted Catholic education for their kids, but sorry they could not afford it. I may want a nicer home or car, but I can't afford it-that's life. Go to public school, do well and maybe get a full or partial scholarship to one of the catholic colleges out there. Guess their credit cards were maxed out. Some people would put on there and eventually declare bank. Glad they did not, butsory they still owe school that money. If dad needs to deliver pizzas do it-it would be a good lesson for the son.

Someone picked up the tab, they are off the hook.