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Ok, I'm new the website, and am looking for a few answers here.

This situation was brought up and is being kicked around our association.

Situation:

R1 and no outs. R1 stealing 2nd with fly ball hit to deep right. R1 is decoyed by the 2nd basemand and rounds 2nd (and touches it), and heads to 3rd. He realizes his error and stops halfway between 2nd and 3rd. The ball is caught and thrown wildly to 1st in an attempt to double up R1. The ball goes into dead ball territory with R1 still between 2nd and 3rd. Is the runner R1 awarded 3rd or home?

1. What is the proper mechanic? We all know that R1 is obligated to retouch at 1st, but is he considered to have legally acquired 2nd for the pupose of the base award?

2. Because his original base was 1st, and being that he has touched or passed an advance base when the ball went dead, does he have the right to retreat and retouch 1st? Or is 3rd considered to be the advance base being that he had acquired 2nd previous to the ball going dead?

3. There have been many interesting answers to this question, some off the wall, and some with some validity. Looking for an official interpretation.

Thanks for your help, and look foward to hearing from you.

Floridaump18
Original Post

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It is 2 bases from the time of throw. R1 had acquired 2B (other team can appeal that later). The runner would be awarded home. I would just put up 2 fingers to signal a 2-base award and point the runner home.

R1 is not OBLIGATED to re-touch 1st base.
This is an appeal situation, so if the opponent's coach doesn't appeal, the run continues to count and we move on.

R1 is not allowed to re-touch 1st base during the dead ball nor after you put the ball back in play (after you award the bases) because he was past the next base when the ball went dead. It's a FED rule, so he's just out of luck if the defense appeals. If defense doesn't appeal, count run and proceed as if nothing happened.
Let me clarify obligated. He is obligated to retouch 1st or is in jeporady of being called out upon appeal.

Secondly, there is some disagreement amoungst some umpires as to when does the base runner loses the opportunity to retreat and retouch missed bases and bases left to early. Some argue that the runner loses the right to retreat the moment the ball becomes dead and then makes an advance base, while others say that the runner loses the right since he was past an advance base when the ball became dead. I believe there is a difference in the rules of proffessional, college, and high school in reguards to this. I can't find a NHFS book. And I belive the pro rule interprets that once the ball becomes dead, the runner cannot make an advance base, butcan still retouch missed bases or bases left early.
If we go under the assumption that the HS rule states that when the ball becomes dead, and a runner makes or has made an advance base, then that runner loses his right to retouch. This rule , if true, seems to be quite unfair. Why should the runner be prevented from retouching when when he was doing what suppossed to do ( stealing/hit and run). Are we not giving the defense a "free" out by not allowing the runner to return? That seems to be in contradiction to the advantage/disadvantage theory. Let's have some input to this please. And thank you in advance to all that take the time to be involved in the questions.
With regard to the play in the OP the Fed Case Book reads as follows:
8.2.5 Situation A: With R1 on first and no outs, B2 hits a long fly ball over the head of F8. R1 thinks the ball will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However, F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first base, but the ball goes into dead-ball territory. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third when the ball becomes dead. RULING: A runner may not return to a base that he left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or if he advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no proper appeal is made by the defense, R1 will be awarded third base. (5-2-2b, 8-2-5)
Last edited by pilsner
Pilsner hits it right on the head...there was something familiar about the inital post and as Pilsner states its almost a word for word case book question...

welcome to the site Floridaump18... Since this is a HS site, we attempt to quote the FED rule (NFHS) and as you have seen the NFHS rule set is many times in contradiction to the NCAA and OBR rules sets....
Pilsner, thank you for quoting the case book ruling. The HS ruling and the pro ruling seem to be along the same lines. The pro ruling reads:
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

That leads to the next question. What stops the fielder from intentionally throwing or causing the ball to become dead. In doing so, the fielder is purposley preventing the runner from completing his baserunning obligations. Does it not seem that the defense is gaining an unfair advantage over the offense?
quote:
That leads to the next question. What stops the fielder from intentionally throwing or causing the ball to become dead. In doing so, the fielder is purposley preventing the runner from completing his baserunning obligations. Does it not seem that the defense is gaining an unfair advantage over the offense?

Under Fed Rule 8-3-3d.: ...A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into dead ball territory to prevent the runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner two bases. This allows the runner(s) to correct any base running error. Defense may still appeal the play.
Secondly, what is the proper mechanic. R1 is between 2 nd and 3rd. Are we awarding the runner home first? What if the runner is smart, and actually goes back to first base? Do we prevent him or allow him? If we allow him, is the base award still home, or does it change to 3rd? Questions on the appeal? At what point may the defense appeal? This would be different in pro and Fed.
The defense can appeal when you put the ball back in play. Because this isn't a missed-base appeal, the defense can not make a dead-ball appeal.

The rules state that the runner can not go back and re-touch 1st base, but I can't imagine as an umpire blocking the runner from trying Smile

So let the runner do what he wants, put the ball back in play, and if the D appeals properly, call the runner out and be ready to explain things to a confused coach.

We are giving the runner 2 bases from the time of the throw, so you give him home. The fact he left early is the D's problem, not ours.
quote:
Originally posted by Floridaump18:
Pilsner, thank you for quoting the case book ruling. The HS ruling and the pro ruling seem to be along the same lines. The pro ruling reads:
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

The OBR rule is not well phrased, but the interpretation for OBR and NCAA is quite different to FED.
In NCAA and OBR, once the ball is thrown dead, he can still run the bases freely, with one exception.

If, for example, R1 is betweeen 3rd and home at the moment the ball becomes dead and he continues on to touch home, then he may not return to 2nd.

I think you said this in your second post, and I just wanted to affirm that.

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